- El Rey León | Fernando Llorente #14

elmystique wrote:bow to the lion

spanish players cannot do well


tevez
llorente  

am vindicated ffs

Conte will troll you by replacing Lolo with Giovinco in 2nd half...

GODRENTE ! Haha
Seriously made a exellent first half.Finaly the LION is free and is going to tear Serie A apart!

elmystique wrote:bow to the lion

spanish players cannot do well


tevez
llorente  

am vindicated ffs

its not that they cant, its that they don't, and aside from Valero and 3 games of Callejon, I cant name another Spaniard who has really been effective in Serie A. I hope this goal against Hellas Verona, on a terrible effort by the defender, is a sign of whats to come, but I doubt it. then again, it might spark us to start floating more crosses into the box and it becomes sort of a turning point for our attack.

OPTIMISM GUYZZ
OOOO OOOOO OOOOO-OOOOO OOOO OOOOO OOOO OOOO ......FINO ALLA FINE!!!! FORZAAAAAAA JUVEEEEEEENTUUUSSSS!!!!!!!!

did anyone know that that cross where it looked like Pogba headed and beat the goalie but a defender cleared has actually been confirmed that it was llorente that actually headed that ball?

FilthyLuca wrote:

elmystique wrote:bow to the lion

spanish players cannot do well


tevez
llorente  

am vindicated ffs

its not that they cant, its that they don't, and aside from Valero and 3 games of Callejon, I cant name another Spaniard who has really been effective in Serie A.  I hope this goal against Hellas Verona, on a terrible effort by the defender, is a sign of whats to come, but I doubt it.  then again, it might spark us to start floating more crosses into the box and it becomes sort of a turning point for our attack.

How many spanish players have played in Italy...? Why you really think they do bad?
I find this proposition ridiculous.

Luis Suarez anyone?

free_cat wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

elmystique wrote:bow to the lion

spanish players cannot do well


tevez
llorente  

am vindicated ffs

its not that they cant, its that they don't, and aside from Valero and 3 games of Callejon, I cant name another Spaniard who has really been effective in Serie A.  I hope this goal against Hellas Verona, on a terrible effort by the defender, is a sign of whats to come, but I doubt it.  then again, it might spark us to start floating more crosses into the box and it becomes sort of a turning point for our attack.

How many spanish players have played in Italy...? Why you really think they do bad?
I find this proposition ridiculous.

Luis Suarez anyone?

there have been a few:
Raul Albiol – Napoli – 2013–14
Alonso – Fiorentina – 2013–14
Guillermo Amor – Fiorentina – 1998-00
Bojan Krkic – Roma, Milan – 2011–13
Borja Valero – Fiorentina – 2012–14
José Callejón – Napoli – 2013–14
Arandes Toni Calvo – Parma – 2010–11
Chico – Genoa – 2010–11
José Ángel Crespo – Bologna – 2011–12, 2013-14
Iván de la Peña – Lazio – 1998–99, 2001–02
Luis del Sol – Juventus, Roma – 1962–72
Roberto Delgado – Lazio – 2003–05
Alejandro Rodríguez de Miguel – Cesena – 2010–11
Dídac Vilà – Milan – 2010–11
Javier Farinós – Inter – 2000–04
Ricardo Gallego – Udinese – 1989–90
Javier Garrido – Lazio – 2010–12
César Gómez – Roma – 1997–98
Josep Guardiola – Brescia, Roma – 2001–03
Iván Helguera – Roma – 1997–98
Luis Helguera – Udinese, Ancona – 2000–02, 2003–04
Joaquín – Fiorentina – 2013-14
Keko – Catania – 2012–14
Óscar López – Lazio – 2004–05
José Ángel Valdés – Roma – 2011–12
Fernando Llorente – Juventus – 2013–14
Gaizka Mendieta – Lazio – 2001–02
José Mari – Milan – 1999-02
Fernando Marqués – Parma – 2010–12
Rafael Martín Vázquez – Torino – 1990–92
Javi Moreno – Milan – 2001–02
Víctor Muñoz – Sampdoria – 1988–90
Pedro Obiang – Sampdoria – 2010–11, 2012–14
Joaquín Peiró – Torino, Inter, Roma – 1962–70
Javier Portillo – Fiorentina – 2004–05
Pepe Reina – Napoli – 2013–14
Martí Riverola – Bologna – 2012–13
Jaime Romero – Udinese, Bari – 2009–11
Victor Ruiz – Napoli – 2010–11
Juan Santisteban – Venezia – 1961–63
Luis Suárez – Inter, Sampdoria – 1961–73
Diego Tristán – Livorno – 2007–08
Alberto Zapater – Genoa – 2009–10

Suarez was great, del sol was very good. Obiang doesn't count because of the age at which he changed leagues. Pep was at the tail end of his career at a small club. that leaves Valero (one year), Callejon and Albiol (3 games). and notice how chort the spells are.

Less time on the ball than in spain maybe? better defense, more physical.  defense is obviously emphasized more in Italy than in spain, the same way touch and ball control are focused on in spain. Its also a much more tactical league than la liga.

but yeah, I honestly don't know, its just a pattern that cant be ignored.

FilthyLuca wrote:

free_cat wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:its not that they cant, its that they don't, and aside from Valero and 3 games of Callejon, I cant name another Spaniard who has really been effective in Serie A.  I hope this goal against Hellas Verona, on a terrible effort by the defender, is a sign of whats to come, but I doubt it.  then again, it might spark us to start floating more crosses into the box and it becomes sort of a turning point for our attack.

How many spanish players have played in Italy...? Why you really think they do bad?
I find this proposition ridiculous.

Luis Suarez anyone?

there have been a few:
Raul Albiol – Napoli – 2013–14
Alonso – Fiorentina – 2013–14
Guillermo Amor – Fiorentina – 1998-00
Bojan Krkic – Roma, Milan – 2011–13
Borja Valero – Fiorentina – 2012–14
José Callejón – Napoli – 2013–14
Arandes Toni Calvo – Parma – 2010–11
Chico – Genoa – 2010–11
José Ángel Crespo – Bologna – 2011–12, 2013-14
Iván de la Peña – Lazio – 1998–99, 2001–02
Luis del Sol – Juventus, Roma – 1962–72
Roberto Delgado – Lazio – 2003–05
Alejandro Rodríguez de Miguel – Cesena – 2010–11
Dídac Vilà – Milan – 2010–11
Javier Farinós – Inter – 2000–04
Ricardo Gallego – Udinese – 1989–90
Javier Garrido – Lazio – 2010–12
César Gómez – Roma – 1997–98
Josep Guardiola – Brescia, Roma – 2001–03
Iván Helguera – Roma – 1997–98
Luis Helguera – Udinese, Ancona – 2000–02, 2003–04
Joaquín – Fiorentina – 2013-14
Keko – Catania – 2012–14
Óscar López – Lazio – 2004–05
José Ángel Valdés – Roma – 2011–12
Fernando Llorente – Juventus – 2013–14
Gaizka Mendieta – Lazio – 2001–02
José Mari – Milan – 1999-02
Fernando Marqués – Parma – 2010–12
Rafael Martín Vázquez – Torino – 1990–92
Javi Moreno – Milan – 2001–02
Víctor Muñoz – Sampdoria – 1988–90
Pedro Obiang – Sampdoria – 2010–11, 2012–14
Joaquín Peiró – Torino, Inter, Roma – 1962–70
Javier Portillo – Fiorentina – 2004–05
Pepe Reina – Napoli – 2013–14
Martí Riverola – Bologna – 2012–13
Jaime Romero – Udinese, Bari – 2009–11
Victor Ruiz – Napoli – 2010–11
Juan Santisteban – Venezia – 1961–63
Luis Suárez – Inter, Sampdoria – 1961–73
Diego Tristán – Livorno – 2007–08
Alberto Zapater – Genoa – 2009–10

Suarez was great, del sol was very good.  Obiang doesn't count because of the age at which he changed leagues. Pep was at the tail end of his career at a small club.  that leaves Valero (one year), Callejon and Albiol (3 games). and notice how chort the spells are.

Less time on the ball than in spain maybe? better defense, more physical.  defense is obviously emphasized more in Italy than in spain, the same way touch and ball control are focused on in spain.  Its also a much more tactical league than la liga.

but yeah, I honestly don't know, its just a pattern that cant be ignored.

This is a ridiculous statement. The amount of players it's very small and many of them did well. Victor Muñoz, Luis Suarez, Valero, Del Sol, etc. Many other players just came when they were at the end of their careers.
As any other nationality there have been flops (De la Peña and Mendieta mostly) and simply players that where not really good enough that italian clubs overpaid stupidly (Farinos, Moreno and Jose Mari).
And so far it seems Reina, Albiol and Callejon are doing well, so everything seems to point out this theory is just stupid.

Its small for a reason, you think the Italian clubs don't scout one of footballs powerhouses?  and MOST didnt do well which is why they only lasted a year or two.  but yeah those three are doing alright after 6 games so I MUST be wrong. and munoz played a season and a half, he shouldn't be the guy to use as an example

get out of your feelings, nobodys talking about the quality of Spanish players, you cant win like they have recently without greatness. all im saying is the two leagues are very different and Spanish players, with the exception of 2 or 3 cant make the adjustment.  very much the same way a lot of Italians cant get accustomed to the physicality of the Prem.

elmystique wrote:bow to the lion

spanish players cannot do well


tevez
llorente  

am vindicated ffs

tevez isn't Spanish at all

FilthyLuca wrote:Its small for a reason, you think the Italian clubs don't scout one of footballs powerhouses?  and MOST didnt do well which is why they only lasted a year or two.  but yeah those three are doing alright after 6 games so I MUST be wrong. and munoz played a season and a half, he shouldn't be the guy to use as an example

get out of your feelings, nobodys talking about the quality of Spanish players, you cant win like they have recently without greatness. all im saying is the two leagues are very different and Spanish players, with the exception of 2 or 3 cant make the adjustment.  very much the same way a lot of Italians cant get accustomed to the physicality of the Prem.

My feelings. Lol. I'm catalan and I don't care if you badmouth spaniards. But the statement is ridiculous so I feel the need to rebate it. Most of the players posted were never good or were already at the end of their career, hence why they did not very good in Italy. Only real flops were De La Peña and Mendieta. Jose Mari, Javi Moreno, and Farinos were one seasons wonders that Italian clubs stupidly overpaid, they were never very good.

It has nothing to do with nationality, it's just that quality national players from big leagues tend to stay at their leagues and few go abroad, hence why this flop label sticks. It also happens with british players in Spain, people say they flop, but they don't, it's just that few come and they are usually not the best. Same with italians. For every Vieri in la Liga, there are two Di Vaio's, Moretti's, Albertini's etc.

Here a list of all italian players in la liga:

Christian Abbiati – Atlético Madrid – 2007-08 FLOP
Demetrio Albertini – Atlético Madrid, FC Barcelona – 2002-03, 2004-05 FLOP
Nicola Berti – Alavés – 1998-99 FLOP
Angelo Bollano – Real Murcia – 1950-51 ??
Aridex Calligaris – Real Sociedad – 1949-50??
Fabio Cannavaro – Real Madrid – 2006-09 SEMI FLOP
Amedeo Carboni – Valencia CF – 1997-06 TOP
Antonio Cassano – Real Madrid – 2005-07 FLOP
Paolo Castellini – Real Betis – 2004-06 ???
Bruno Cirillo Levante ??
Francesco Coco – FC Barcelona – 2001-02 FLOP
Bernardo Corradi – Valencia CF – 2004-05 FLOP
Sergio Del Pinto – UE Lleida – 1950-51 ??
Morgan De Sanctis – Sevilla FC – 2007-08 FLOP
Marco Di Vaio – Valencia CF – 2004-06 FLOP
Cristiano Doni – RCD Mallorca – 2005-06 FLOP
Stefano Fiore – Valencia CF – 2004-05 FLOP
Mark Iuliano – RCD Mallorca – 2004-06 ??
Marco Lanna – UD Salamanca, Real Zaragoza – 1997-01 ??
Damiano Longhi – Hércules CF – 1996-97 ??
Cristiano Lucarelli – Valencia CF – 1998-99 FLOP
Enzo Maresca – Sevilla FC – 2005-09 TOP
Emiliano Moretti – Valencia CF – 2004-09 FLOP
Christian Panucci – Real Madrid – 1996-99 TOP
Alessandro Pierini – Racing – 2004-05 FLOP
Alessandro Potenza – RCD Mallorca – 2005-06 FLOP
Christian Riganò – Levante UD – 2007-08 FLOP
Giuseppe Rossi – Villarreal CF – 2007-09 TOP
Michele Serena – Atlético Madrid – 1998-99 ??
Stefano Sorrentino – Recreativo de Huelva – 2007-08??
Marco Storari – Levante UD – 2007-08 SEMI FLOP
Alessio Tacchinardi – Villarreal CF – 2005-07 SEMI FLOP
Francesco Tavano – Valencia CF – 2006-07 FLOP
Damiano Tommasi – Levante UD – 2006-08 FLOP
Moreno Torricelli – RCD Espanyol – 2003-04 SEMI FLOP
Stefano Torrisi – Atlético Madrid – 1998-99 ??
Giorgio Venturin – Atlético Madrid – 1998-00 ??
Christian Vieri – Atlético Madrid – 1997-98 TOP
Gianluca Zambrotta – FC Barcelona – 2006-08 FLOP

Only five italian players out of 40 really did well, and one of them is only half italian (Giusepp Rossi).
Same proportion, or worse, than the list of spaniards in Italy.
Go figure.

free_cat wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:Its small for a reason, you think the Italian clubs don't scout one of footballs powerhouses?  and MOST didnt do well which is why they only lasted a year or two.  but yeah those three are doing alright after 6 games so I MUST be wrong. and munoz played a season and a half, he shouldn't be the guy to use as an example

get out of your feelings, nobodys talking about the quality of Spanish players, you cant win like they have recently without greatness. all im saying is the two leagues are very different and Spanish players, with the exception of 2 or 3 cant make the adjustment.  very much the same way a lot of Italians cant get accustomed to the physicality of the Prem.

My feelings. Lol. I'm catalan and I don't care if you badmouth spaniards. But the statement is ridiculous so I feel the need to rebate it. Most of the players posted were never good or were already at the end of their career, hence why they did not very good in Italy. Only real flops were De La Peña and Mendieta. Jose Mari, Javi Moreno, and Farinos were one seasons wonders that Italian clubs stupidly overpaid, they were never very good.

It has nothing to do with nationality, it's just that quality national players from big leagues tend to stay at their leagues and few go abroad, hence why this flop label sticks. It also happens with british players in Spain, people say they flop, but they don't, it's just that few come and they are usually not the best. Same with italians. For every Vieri in la Liga, there are two Di Vaio's, Moretti's, Albertini's etc.

ok then, i guess Spanish players HAVE been successful in Italy. theres no difference between their success and that of the dutch or germans or Brazilians. m just full of it. thers no difference in style of play, so that couldnt possibly factor in there performance. Spanish players didn't come to the most profitable league in the world at the time, simply because hey didn't want to.

free_cat wrote:Here a list of all italian players in la liga:

Christian Abbiati – Atlético Madrid – 2007-08 FLOP
Demetrio Albertini – Atlético Madrid, FC Barcelona – 2002-03, 2004-05 FLOP
Nicola Berti – Alavés – 1998-99 FLOP
Angelo Bollano – Real Murcia – 1950-51 ??
Aridex Calligaris – Real Sociedad – 1949-50??
Fabio Cannavaro – Real Madrid – 2006-09 SEMI FLOP
Amedeo Carboni – Valencia CF – 1997-06 TOP
Antonio Cassano – Real Madrid – 2005-07 FLOP
Paolo Castellini – Real Betis – 2004-06 ???
Bruno Cirillo Levante ??
Francesco Coco – FC Barcelona – 2001-02 FLOP
Bernardo Corradi – Valencia CF – 2004-05 FLOP
Sergio Del Pinto – UE Lleida – 1950-51 ??
Morgan De Sanctis – Sevilla FC – 2007-08 FLOP
Marco Di Vaio – Valencia CF – 2004-06 FLOP
Cristiano Doni – RCD Mallorca – 2005-06 FLOP
Stefano Fiore – Valencia CF – 2004-05 FLOP
Mark Iuliano – RCD Mallorca – 2004-06 ??
Marco Lanna – UD Salamanca, Real Zaragoza – 1997-01 ??
Damiano Longhi – Hércules CF – 1996-97 ??
Cristiano Lucarelli – Valencia CF – 1998-99 FLOP
Enzo Maresca – Sevilla FC – 2005-09 TOP
Emiliano Moretti – Valencia CF – 2004-09 FLOP
Christian Panucci – Real Madrid – 1996-99 TOP
Alessandro Pierini – Racing – 2004-05 FLOP
Alessandro Potenza – RCD Mallorca – 2005-06 FLOP
Christian Riganò – Levante UD – 2007-08 FLOP
Giuseppe Rossi – Villarreal CF – 2007-09 TOP
Michele Serena – Atlético Madrid – 1998-99 ??
Stefano Sorrentino – Recreativo de Huelva – 2007-08??
Marco Storari – Levante UD – 2007-08 SEMI FLOP
Alessio Tacchinardi – Villarreal CF – 2005-07 SEMI FLOP
Francesco Tavano – Valencia CF – 2006-07 FLOP
Damiano Tommasi – Levante UD – 2006-08 FLOP
Moreno Torricelli – RCD Espanyol – 2003-04 SEMI FLOP
Stefano Torrisi – Atlético Madrid – 1998-99 ??
Giorgio Venturin – Atlético Madrid – 1998-00 ??
Christian Vieri – Atlético Madrid – 1997-98 TOP
Gianluca Zambrotta – FC Barcelona – 2006-08 FLOP

Only five italian players out of 40 really did well, and one of them is only half italian (Giusepp Rossi).
Same proportion, or worse, than the list of spaniards in Italy.
Go figure.

Figure what? and then you wonder why i think your in your feelings.  what does Italians in La liga have to do with how Spanish players fair in Serie A? what are you trying to prove? i didn't say nor imply Italians are superior, simply that the style of play in both leagues, for better or worse, is different, and success in one isn't conducive to success in the other. and generally the dutch (van basten, rijkaard, gullit, seedorf, Kluivert, bergkamp, davids) the germans (bierhoff, habler, rummenidge, mathauss) the Brazilians (i dont have enough space), have much more success in Italy than the Spanish.
and don't give me this sample size nonsense, there aren't that many more dutch players or any others for that matter, in serie a than Spanish players.

This is a really stupid argument. The whole Spanish players can't do well in Italy is just a racist, baseless argument. And yes, judging players differently because of where they were born or came from is the definition of racism which is why I never touched on this topic before because of the embarrassment I feel towards people who make and agree with this claim.

You judge players and people on the merits of their character. If Llorente or whoever flops it's because of his ability as a player. Not because the dimensions of the goal change from Spain to Italy. Be reasonable

Luca wrote:This is a really stupid argument. The whole Spanish players can't do well in Italy is just a  racist, baselessargument. And yes, judging players differently because of where they were born or came from is the definition of racism which is why I never touched on this topic before because of the embarrassment I feel towards people who make and agree with this claim.

You judge players and people on the merits of their character. If Llorente or whoever flops it's because of his ability as a player. Not because the dimensions of the goal change from Spain to Italy. Be reasonable

all due respect Luca, you sound incredibly ignorant (you have IGNORED what I have written) and dramatic as possible. have you read ANYTHING I have written?  did I not state over and over again that this is an observation of the history of Spanish players in Calcio? have I not said over and over again that its not because of the fact that they are Spanish, but rather the style of play of their leagues and the footballing culture in which they are raised? and that its not a judgment of the quality of footballer they produce but rather how they play in a specific league? is the style of play in La Liga not different from Serie A? DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. all that stuff about because of where they were born and the goal dimensions is absurd and I never even alluded to anything of the sort, YOU wrote that not me.  

im going to leave this alone because most of you just want to find something to get mad at, or creating a situation so you can feel like your fighting racism.

bottom line is, I can name many more successful serie a players from other footballing powerhouses i.e. Holland, Germany, france, and brazil than Spain. same goes for the brits.  and so  far my prediction of llorente not succeeding in Italy, and being sold by January seems to be accurate (so far), so I guess it cant be totally baseless and racist.

Observing a sample of less than 50 players and using it as gospel proof just reinforces what I'm saying. At the very least the sample has been too small to many any solid conclusion out of it.

It's baseless to say X player can't play in county B because he's from that country. It's reasonable to say X player night not succeed because he lacks the ability- which is what football players are judged on.

Luca wrote:Observing a sample of less than 50 players and using it as gospel proof just reinforces what I'm saying. At the very least the sample has been too small to many any solid conclusion out of it.

It's baseless to say X player can't play in county B because he's from that country. It's reasonable to say X player night not succeed because he lacks the ability- which is what football players are judged on.

its not a sample size, I didn't select a few out of the bunch, its the whole list of Spanish players,and its not too small because its within single digits of Germany, Holland (who has actually had less players), Portugal, and so on.

and AGAIN, its not the fact that he is born in spain, its that he was raised in that footballing culture, and in that league. NEWSFLASH!!! Most Spanish players, like in every other country, come up through the youth ranks of La Liga teams.  

and to say ability is the only reason someone succeeds in football is just absurd.  Thierry Henry, Ian Rush, Mendieta, all these players, and yes, the Italians the barca fan above listed are proof of this. playing style has a lot to do with it.

Stop trying to force the race card. it has nothing to do with what piece of land you were born in.

Ability relates directly to playing style. Being able to adapt to different systems isn't a cultural thing, it's a tactical thing which again is linked to ability- the ability to learn.

50 Spanish players lets say, out of the thousands of players who have played in Italy. Then use that criteria to pre-judge a player. Let me re-state, racism is the DIFFERENTIAL treatment of someone based on race, ethnicity, culture etc.

Are you treating a player differently because he's Spanish and then using that INNATE trait as a reason for criticism? Yes? Alright, 1.

Saying he lacks the ability is fine, saying race or ethnicity has anything to do with it is not, for me. Again this is the reason I chose not to engage in this discussion prior to today. Please don't take me too seriously, I'm not labelling you a racist I just find the discussion of Spanish players succeeding in Italy a little ill-informed and in bad taste.

I'm not going to respond to this thread again unless it's for a continued constructive post because were creating a slippery slope now.

Luca wrote:Ability relates directly to playing style. Being able to adapt to different systems isn't a cultural thing, it's a tactical thing which again is linked to ability- the ability to learn.

50 Spanish players lets say, out of the thousands of players who have played in Italy. Then use that criteria to pre-judge a player. Let me re-state, racism is the DIFFERENTIAL treatment of someone based on race, ethnicity, culture etc.

Are you treating a player differently because he's Spanish and then using that INNATE trait as a reason for criticism? Yes? Alright, 1.

Saying he lacks the ability is fine, saying race or ethnicity has anything to do with it is not, for me. Again this is the reason I chose not to engage in this discussion prior to today. Please don't take me too seriously, I'm not labelling you a racist I just find the discussion of Spanish players succeeding in Italy a little ill-informed and in bad taste.

I'm not going to respond to this thread again unless it's for a continued constructive post because were creating a slippery slope now.

I absolutely am not. im not criticizing anyone anyway. im pointing out that the players who are Spanish, barring very few examples, have not been successful, that is not an opinion, its an observation. my reasoning is that the playing style is very different, which it IS, and to say it isn't is just false, there are differences in playing styles in different countries, that is a fact. and because of this, certain players have a hard time adjusting to certain leagues

and ability does NOT directly relate to playing style, they are independent. you can be great technically, but not use to a certain amount of contact, and therefore be less effective.

I can appreciate your distaste for labeling people, and maybe, as juventude pointed out, I shouldn't have said Spaniard, maybe I should've said players who develop in la liga, which is what I was basically alluding to. I just feel people are waaay too touchy and sometime look for things to get mad about or outraged by, when they are not there.

no hard feelings.

If we played in the 4-3-3 with llorente up front supporting the wingers holding up play he would be one of the best strikers in the world we just don't play in the correct formation for him

FilthyLuca wrote:

Luca wrote:Ability relates directly to playing style. Being able to adapt to different systems isn't a cultural thing, it's a tactical thing which again is linked to ability- the ability to learn.

50 Spanish players lets say, out of the thousands of players who have played in Italy. Then use that criteria to pre-judge a player. Let me re-state, racism is the DIFFERENTIAL treatment of someone based on race, ethnicity, culture etc.

Are you treating a player differently because he's Spanish and then using that INNATE trait as a reason for criticism? Yes? Alright, 1.  

Saying he lacks the ability is fine, saying race or ethnicity has anything to do with it is not, for me. Again this is the reason I chose not to engage in this discussion prior to today. Please don't take me too seriously, I'm not labelling you a racist I just find the discussion of Spanish players succeeding in Italy a little ill-informed and in bad taste.

I'm not going to respond to this thread again unless it's for a continued constructive post because were creating a slippery slope now.

I absolutely am not. im not criticizing anyone anyway.  im pointing out that the players who are Spanish, barring very few examples, have not been successful, that is not an opinion, its an observation.  my reasoning is that the playing style is very different, which it IS, and to say it isn't is just false, there are differences in playing styles in different countries, that is a fact.  and because of this, certain players have a hard time adjusting to certain leagues

and ability does NOT directly relate to playing style, they are independent.  you can be great technically, but not use to a certain amount of contact, and therefore be less effective.

I can appreciate your distaste for labeling people, and maybe, as juventude pointed out, I shouldn't have said Spaniard, maybe I should've said players who develop in la liga, which is what I was basically alluding to.  I just feel people are waaay too touchy and sometime look for things to get mad about or outraged by, when they are not there.

no hard feelings.

It may have been the original phrasing that I was talking about. The whole 'Keep Spain out of Italy' ideology that has been applied. But I do understand and agree to an extent with what you're saying but I would still link everything to ability. I'm using ability broadly here, I don't just mean technique, being able to thrive in different systems, countries, leagues, situations is an ability to me as well.

Luca wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

Luca wrote:Ability relates directly to playing style. Being able to adapt to different systems isn't a cultural thing, it's a tactical thing which again is linked to ability- the ability to learn.

50 Spanish players lets say, out of the thousands of players who have played in Italy. Then use that criteria to pre-judge a player. Let me re-state, racism is the DIFFERENTIAL treatment of someone based on race, ethnicity, culture etc.

Are you treating a player differently because he's Spanish and then using that INNATE trait as a reason for criticism? Yes? Alright, 1.  

Saying he lacks the ability is fine, saying race or ethnicity has anything to do with it is not, for me. Again this is the reason I chose not to engage in this discussion prior to today. Please don't take me too seriously, I'm not labelling you a racist I just find the discussion of Spanish players succeeding in Italy a little ill-informed and in bad taste.

I'm not going to respond to this thread again unless it's for a continued constructive post because were creating a slippery slope now.

I absolutely am not. im not criticizing anyone anyway.  im pointing out that the players who are Spanish, barring very few examples, have not been successful, that is not an opinion, its an observation.  my reasoning is that the playing style is very different, which it IS, and to say it isn't is just false, there are differences in playing styles in different countries, that is a fact.  and because of this, certain players have a hard time adjusting to certain leagues

and ability does NOT directly relate to playing style, they are independent.  you can be great technically, but not use to a certain amount of contact, and therefore be less effective.

I can appreciate your distaste for labeling people, and maybe, as juventude pointed out, I shouldn't have said Spaniard, maybe I should've said players who develop in la liga, which is what I was basically alluding to.  I just feel people are waaay too touchy and sometime look for things to get mad about or outraged by, when they are not there.

no hard feelings.

It may have been the original phrasing that I was talking about. The whole 'Keep Spain out of Italy' ideology that has been applied. But I do understand and agree to an extent with what you're saying but I would still link everything to ability. I'm using ability broadly here, I don't just mean technique, being able to thrive in different systems, countries, leagues, situations is an ability to me as well.

see there I agree whole heartedly, and while I can see the benefit of limiting foreign transfers to 2 per year on the NT and the development of Italian players in general, its absurd to want to keep anyone out of Italy because of who they are, if they can contribute, they can contribute. and as somewhat of a mut myself so to speak (my Spanish grandparents included in that mix) I can understand someone being upset by this.

FilthyLuca wrote:

free_cat wrote:Here a list of all italian players in la liga:

Christian Abbiati – Atlético Madrid – 2007-08 FLOP
Demetrio Albertini – Atlético Madrid, FC Barcelona – 2002-03, 2004-05 FLOP
Nicola Berti – Alavés – 1998-99 FLOP
Angelo Bollano – Real Murcia – 1950-51 ??
Aridex Calligaris – Real Sociedad – 1949-50??
Fabio Cannavaro – Real Madrid – 2006-09 SEMI FLOP
Amedeo Carboni – Valencia CF – 1997-06 TOP
Antonio Cassano – Real Madrid – 2005-07 FLOP
Paolo Castellini – Real Betis – 2004-06 ???
Bruno Cirillo Levante ??
Francesco Coco – FC Barcelona – 2001-02 FLOP
Bernardo Corradi – Valencia CF – 2004-05 FLOP
Sergio Del Pinto – UE Lleida – 1950-51 ??
Morgan De Sanctis – Sevilla FC – 2007-08 FLOP
Marco Di Vaio – Valencia CF – 2004-06 FLOP
Cristiano Doni – RCD Mallorca – 2005-06 FLOP
Stefano Fiore – Valencia CF – 2004-05 FLOP
Mark Iuliano – RCD Mallorca – 2004-06 ??
Marco Lanna – UD Salamanca, Real Zaragoza – 1997-01 ??
Damiano Longhi – Hércules CF – 1996-97 ??
Cristiano Lucarelli – Valencia CF – 1998-99 FLOP
Enzo Maresca – Sevilla FC – 2005-09 TOP
Emiliano Moretti – Valencia CF – 2004-09 FLOP
Christian Panucci – Real Madrid – 1996-99 TOP
Alessandro Pierini – Racing – 2004-05 FLOP
Alessandro Potenza – RCD Mallorca – 2005-06 FLOP
Christian Riganò – Levante UD – 2007-08 FLOP
Giuseppe Rossi – Villarreal CF – 2007-09 TOP
Michele Serena – Atlético Madrid – 1998-99 ??
Stefano Sorrentino – Recreativo de Huelva – 2007-08??
Marco Storari – Levante UD – 2007-08 SEMI FLOP
Alessio Tacchinardi – Villarreal CF – 2005-07 SEMI FLOP
Francesco Tavano – Valencia CF – 2006-07 FLOP
Damiano Tommasi – Levante UD – 2006-08 FLOP
Moreno Torricelli – RCD Espanyol – 2003-04 SEMI FLOP
Stefano Torrisi – Atlético Madrid – 1998-99 ??
Giorgio Venturin – Atlético Madrid – 1998-00 ??
Christian Vieri – Atlético Madrid – 1997-98 TOP
Gianluca Zambrotta – FC Barcelona – 2006-08 FLOP

Only five italian players out of 40 really did well, and one of them is only half italian (Giusepp Rossi).
Same proportion, or worse, than the list of spaniards in Italy.
Go figure.

Figure what? and then you wonder why i think your in your feelings.  what does Italians in La liga have to do with how Spanish players fair in Serie A? what are you trying to prove? i didn't say nor imply Italians are superior, simply that the style of play in both leagues, for better or worse, is different, and success in one isn't conducive to success in the other.  and generally the dutch (van basten, rijkaard, gullit, seedorf, Kluivert, bergkamp, davids) the germans (bierhoff, habler, rummenidge, mathauss) the Brazilians (i dont have enough space), have much more success in Italy than the Spanish.
and don't give me this sample size nonsense, there aren't that many more dutch players or any others for that matter, in serie a than Spanish players.

With my list, I wasn't trying to prove that Italians are worse in Spain than spaniards in Italy. I was trying to prove that all foreign signings have a big amount of players that flop. This happens with every nationality, even national players too, but maybe less because they are more well known by coaches and DT.

You say that Germans, Brazilians and Dutch are more successful than spaniards in Italy. I'm pretty sure that's bullsshit because also much more Germans, Dutch and especially Brasilians have played in italy than spaniards. We would need a full list and compare, otherwise you are just going by anecdote.

Also, even if spaniards had been less successful in Italy in proportion than other nationalities, that wouldn't mean that "spaniards flop in Italy because of spanish style", but most likely (and what I'm arguing) that mostly non TOP quality spaniards are let go from Spain, because TOP TOP spanish players stay in Spain and play for Barça, Madrid or the third best team instead of going abroad.