Why do people think Klopp is better than Wenger?

The Franchise wrote:Irrelevant what the fans want..its about whats realistic. You dont win titles when you lose best player year after year.

Nothing to do with Wengers ability to coach.

What your saying makes no sense.

Was Wenger in elite in 04 or whenever they didnt lose for 49 games? You actually believe he knows less now than then? Get real, if anything he knows more...the only difference is he dont have Henry, he has Giroud...he dont have Bergkamp, he has Podolski...dont have Pires, he has Walcott..and I could go on for at least half a dozen more.

Wenger didnt "decline", he aint a player. He just has worse tools.

You can blame him for having worse tools if you like, but that not a indication of his ability as a coach...most coaches dont even have that responsibilty to start with.

Klopp won titles when they lost Sahin and he's replaced him with someone who's probably better in Gundogan. I know Dortmund haven't won the CL, however they're in the final when they lost Kagawa last year.

Maybe Wenger just hasn't been good enough in terms of replacing players or developing players to replace the ones that already left.

Him having worse tools is partly down to him not developing players like he previously has done.

Coaches can decline too. They may not be getting the results, their tactics may be falling apart etc etc which could result in them being sacked/leaving.

Arsenal are only keeping Wenger because he's 'part' of Arsenal. Any other top team would have sacked their coach in 2-3 years of not winning a trophy. 8 years is way too long.

Yes Arsenal aren't what they were before, however they're still a top club. If Arsenal's strategy is to develop players and make them good enough to win things, then Wenger hasn't been good enough to do that in the past 8 years.

Who is Sahin and Kagawa in comparison to Henry, Veira or even Cesc? Not even comparable. Not to mention, In England Arsenal have to beat 2-3 teams to a title...Dortmund, just one...and at the time, the level of all those teams are quite similar.

Maybe Wenger isnt good enough at replacing or devolping? Maybe..but more likely not. Who has lost players of that calibre and replaced them with similar resources? Nobody.

Coaches dont decline, what your saying is nonesense. Not getting results is not 100% on them..dont know what kind of logic your using. Tactics do not "fall apart" either..I dont even know what that means.

No, Arsenal are keeping Wenger because hes a fantastic coach and not a single person can name a better available option.

Sahin and Kagawa weren't Henry, Vieira etc, however they were pretty much as important to Dortmund as those players were for Arsenal.

Wenger lost Henry, Vieira etc, however he hasn't developed any players good enough to replace them. If Arsenal's strategy is to develop, he hasn't been good enough at doing it in order to keep Arsenal at a high level.

Coaches can decline. For example relegation candidates often sack their manager and a new one comes in and they do better. If that's down to motivation, then that's part of being a manager too.

Arsenal are keeping Wenger because he's 'part of Arsenal'. He's simply living off what he's done in the past. Sure he deserves credit for what he's done in the past, however he's no longer good enough.

Managers like Klopp might not be highly rated as Wenger, however he may be able to use different tactics etc to win trophies.

overall or just this year? because obviously wenger is the more accomplished manager no question about that but klopp has been excellent this year.

I dont have time to repeat myself.

When you put Sahin and Kagawa in the same league as Henry and Veira, your clearly waffling.

If you lose Henry and Viera, you lose the best player in the world in that position...when you lose Sahin and Kagawa.......lol

You say Wenger is not good enough, but you have no idea what he even does..tactically you probably dont even know what Arsenals problems have and why they struggle on the pitch.

The Franchise wrote:If you lose Henry and Viera, you lose the best player in the world in that position...when you lose Sahin and Kagawa.......lol

On the other hand you imply that Arsène Wenger needs the best players in the world in their position to get some success. Wouldn't that imply he isn't able to figure out some tactic that can work around having the best players and instead use a collective to the best result?

I dont think I said that.

If you watched Arsenal in their title winning days, not a single person would say that their strength was the collective.

But its just common sense, if you lose the best forward on the planet (at least top 3) and the best midfielder (or at least top 3) your not going to replace them with equal quality...and then if you consider it wasnt just those 2, but many many other players who left him...what do you want him to do? No coach ever won without talent.

And lets not pretend that he just got World class players at his door, they were nowhere near world class before him.

I'm not saying Sahin/Kagawa are in Vieira/Henry's league, I just meant they're just as important to Dortmund as the former were for Arsenal.

In terms of Arsenal losing those 2 players, Wenger obviously developed them, so that would mean he hasn't been good enough to continue to develop and win things.

He may have developed RvP, Nasri, Fabregas etc, however he hasn't managed to win with them. Maybe he's just a victim of his own success. Developing players and winning, but not being able to continue that strategy.

And im saying, no they are not.

And no, not repeating them doesnt mean he hasnt been good enough at devolping players. Who anywhere has devolped players the level of Henry and Veira? Hardly anyone.

Of course he hasnt won anything with those players, before RVP was injury free Cesc left..Nasri was never good....

Your obbsession with winning is stupid to be honest, many great coaches dont win..many coaches greater than winning coaches dont win, its just the way it is.

Bielsa is considerably better than Mancini, but Mancini has won more.

rwo power wrote:

The Franchise wrote:If you lose Henry and Viera, you lose the best player in the world in that position...when you lose Sahin and Kagawa.......lol

On the other hand you imply that Arsène Wenger needs the best players in the world in their position to get some success. Wouldn't that imply he isn't able to figure out some tactic that can work around having the best players and instead use a collective to the best result?

No he is not implying that. Quite the contrary as Viera and Henry were players who famed was purely catalysed by Wenger as previously they were club journeymen in search for a patient leader who would guide them into the potential they went on to fulfil. Which is why Klopp cannot be compared to Wenger at all at the moment.

And Sahin didn't go a magical transformation. At Madrid his bench time was the result of severe injuries while at Liverpool he was played out of position and in a system to which did not cater to his needs. Kagawa is actually doing quite well at United, just not being played to his strengths. When you go from Dortmund onto United or Real, you have to step up your game, to which they could not handle.

Arquitecto wrote:When you go from Dortmund onto United or Real, you have to step up your game, to which they could not handle.

On the other hand, when Dortmund met Real, weren't Dortmund actually superior there? If you look at it that way, the stepping up needed to play for Real doesn't appear to be necessarily so steep. ^^

The Franchise wrote:And im saying, no they are not.

And no, not repeating them doesnt mean he hasnt been good enough at devolping players. Who anywhere has devolped players the level of Henry and Veira? Hardly anyone.

Of course he hasnt won anything with those players, before RVP was injury free Cesc left..Nasri was never good....

Your obbsession with winning is stupid to be honest, many great coaches dont win..many coaches greater than winning coaches dont win, its just the way it is.

Bielsa is considerably better than Mancini, but Mancini has won more.

Maybe he can't develop players as good as Vieira/Henry, however he did develop players who were capable of winning titles.

RvP/Fabregas/Nasri/Clichy/Sagna etc are good enough to win titles. If RvP was always injured, he should have found a proper solution.

Wenger basically raised the expectations of the fans. He won Arsenal trophies and gave them high standards.

Wenger does deserve credit for what he's achieved in the past, however he's no longer achieving what he achieved back then. If a coach scouts, develops players etc, plays good football, but isn't winning things, then how does that work?

The ultimate goal for a coach is to win trophies/be successful. That's pretty much why they compete.

Wenger's success coincided with France's golden generation. Nowadays he doesn't have that scouting edge over the rest of the Premier League anymore. 10 years ago Wenger would have bought someone like Hazard when he was 17 years old for € 5 million from Ligue 2 and turned him into a world beater. Nowadays he's buying the likes of Gervinho, Podolski, Cazorla and Monreal, mixed with a bit of La Masia poaching of kids who will go back to Barcelona anyway if they turn out to be a success. Forget trophies. Just look how his teams play. Famous for naivity in defense and bottling big leads.

Season 10 / 11:

matchday 32:

1. Manchester United: 69 points
2. Arsenal: 63 points
3. Chelsea: 61 points
4. City: 56 points

matchday 38:

1. Manchester United: 80 points
2. Chelsea: 71 points
3. City: 71 points
4. Arsenal: 68 points

That's Arsene Wenger for you.

It was easier before When David Dein was in charge of getting players. Arsene just need to tell him who to buy and the player would be there few weeks later. Now Arsene has to negotiate hismelf. He hates that. That's not his job.


About the 10/11 season.

It was nothing to do with Arsene. After the CC final defeat, the team was dead mentally. The team was built around Cesc and when he got injured, the team lost their way completely.

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:And im saying, no they are not.

And no, not repeating them doesnt mean he hasnt been good enough at devolping players. Who anywhere has devolped players the level of Henry and Veira? Hardly anyone.

Of course he hasnt won anything with those players, before RVP was injury free Cesc left..Nasri was never good....

Your obbsession with winning is stupid to be honest, many great coaches dont win..many coaches greater than winning coaches dont win, its just the way it is.

Bielsa is considerably better than Mancini, but Mancini has won more.

Maybe he can't develop players as good as Vieira/Henry, however he did develop players who were capable of winning titles.

RvP/Fabregas/Nasri/Clichy/Sagna etc are good enough to win titles. If RvP was always injured, he should have found a proper solution.

Wenger basically raised the expectations of the fans. He won Arsenal trophies and gave them high standards.

Wenger does deserve credit for what he's achieved in the past, however he's no longer achieving what he achieved back then. If a coach scouts, develops players etc, plays good football, but isn't winning things, then how does that work?

The ultimate goal for a coach is to win trophies/be successful. That's pretty much why they compete.

Told you, aint got time to repeat what I already wrote.