La Masia

tonykross wrote:Free_cat just like kids from other nationalities that also failed to make the cut, where is Gai Assulin who was supposed to be the next Messi,Giovanni Dos santos ?

There are plenty of players that fail.
But it's only african players that they have trouble with the age. There are many reported cases.

I've coached a local youth teams for two years, and I had 7-8 african born players. There were one or two of them that didn't know his age and they were assigned to an age bracket via medical tests. The kids are doing nothing wrong, but they can be playing in an age bracket that it's not theirs.

Free_cat you claimed it happens mostly with African players which I strongly disagree.Do you know the percentage of African players who have been through La masia ? less than .002 %. your arguement is thereby flawed because the majority of failures have been Spaniards since they constitute 98 % of La masia.

tonykross wrote:Free_cat you claimed it happens mostly with African players which I strongly disagree.Do you know the percentage of African players who have been through La masia ? less than .002 %. your arguement is thereby flawed because the majority of failures have been Spaniards since they constitute 98 % of La masia.

No. You misunderstood me. I'm not saying that African players fail the most.
I'm saying that it only happens with African players that there is difficulty in knowing their real age.

free_cat wrote:Guess we should say he has no future, as you do with Deulofeu for his 60 minutes of first team football.

I've been pretty consistent with my takes rather than swinging from one end of the spectrum to the other...Erratic minutes with the first team doesn't equate to being a disappointment otherwise we'd have to say the same about Cesc, Alexis or Cuenca, for that matter...The fact that they can and have played well with the first team (And actually insured us getting pts in key battles) is what currently separates them from your 60 min player...He hasn't impressed at all yet with the first team...When he does, then we can discuss his prospects as a first team player

free_cat wrote:I like Tello, but he is the catalan walcott. He runs very fast, shots and only has one dribling. I think you are alone in the world saying he is not a racecar in this stage.

We'll see but he's been routinely playing with the first team whereas Geri hasn't

free_cat wrote:Dongou has played 104 minutes with the B team. Are you seriously drawing conclusions from that? How can you have the chick to say he has "looked better" than Deulofeu? That's an outright manipulation. Haven't you seen all the wonder plays Deulofeu has done? All Dongou has done is do off-the-ball runs and score two tap ins. Give him more time before saying stupid things like Dongou has looked better in 104 minutes than Deulofeu in 1.700.

I'm drawing my conclusions on Dongou on 3 things...One, what I've witnessed (Live and on TV) for 3 seasons now...Two, his rise from one level to another quicker than anyone other than Leo...Three, how impressive he has looked in every situation he's been thrown into...When the Juvenil A side were getting bullied left & right against Ajax in the NextGen, it was Grimaldo & Dongou who were the only dangers really that night...How players do against bigger, more experienced and physical players (There were Ajax first teamers in that side) tells you a lot about their prospects...Dongou has shined in every situation, THAT is what I go on...104 minutes with the B team is only a small part of it...Perspective

And you continue the descent from friendly discussion/debate into insults...I haven't called you stupid, there's no need for that, it just further dilutes a weaker & weaker argument from you

free_cat wrote:Ok, wager what you want, but if Dongou plays 20 minutes with the first team and doesn't shine, I hope you are coherent and come here to say that some guy from the Cadet A is more ready than him.

So long as it isn't apples to apples, that it should be 20 and not 60 right?

free_cat wrote:I don't want to diminish Dongou. It's a question mark, only that, that every player born in Africa has, even acomplished professionals like Michael Essien.

It's not a question mark, it's you casting an aspersion on a player of African descent without any basis in fact...conjecture and not even conjecture that is linked to the player, it sound like you're casting a wide net there in what is a very poorly disguised fishing expedition to diminish the player...A player in our cantera, btw, so make of that what you will...I'm not suggesting anything quite so outlandish about Deulofeu other than I feel he's not a hardworker, is cocky and has yet to mature his game in a way that gives me confidence about his future as a first teamer

free_cat wrote:I'm not prejudiced, it's something that happens all the time in football with African players and if you are sensible you should take it into consideration. Gael Etock is not the only player, several players from the Eto'o foundation have been discarded in the last years when they reached Juvenil or Cadet age.

Also, not to forgot the curious cases of Okunowo or Haruna Babangida, that fall perfectly in the pattern.

Sorry cat but it reflects prejudice, no two ways about it...If he were white, this would be a different conversation...I didn't bring up his roots, you have and subsequently called into question his age...You think a club like Barcelona equates to a Dominican little league baseball club?

tonykross wrote:Free_cat just like kids from other nationalities that also failed to make the cut, where is Gai Assulin who was supposed to be the next Messi,Giovanni Dos santos ?

Great example, Gai Assulin...Almost forgot about him, that's how relevant he is/was

Gai is a prime example of a kid who was so hyped and called the next Messi etc. only to be let go and now wanders aimlessly who knows where...Last I heard he was suing the club for some fees or something...Deulofeu is better than Assulin but that's the direction they can go but it doesn't have to be hit/miss...It can also be Nolito or Jeffren etc, there is a middle ground too

Buf, you are impossible. You don't stop saying one manipulation over another. I'll let you live in your dream bubble where Dongou has been the best player in Barça B and Deulofeu has no skills and talent and is only a racecar.

Btw, why you call him "Geri"? Are you a friend of his or something? I doubt you live in Catalunya as it seems you don't understand catalan, but anyway, long distance friendship is possible nowadays.

I'm sorry free, I thought you were a reasonable bloke but I can see there's a maturity gap here

I think its completely justified to have some concern about African youth players. There's nothing unfair or racist about having such concerns. You simply have to look at the history. Further, many of the African boys often develop early, making them look older than their Spanish companions. It has happened many times and will probably continue to happen. I don't think Dongou has an incorrect age, but there's no harm in keeping this concern in mind.

Like said before... we don't want another Haruna Babinguda.

FCBarça wrote:I'm sorry free, I thought you were a reasonable bloke but I can see there's a maturity gap here

Don't try to give me lessons about being reasonable. Come on, I tried to come to your middle ground since my second post and all you did is entrench in your deluded ideas that Dongou has proved a lot more than Deulofeu.

Free_Cat, I don't want to label you a racist but your comments sound like one.we all want our Cantera to produce great players for our first team irrespective whether they're catalans,Asians,Africans,Americans or from the Moon.I would like Deulofeu, Dongou,Rafinhna and all the other great prospects to realise their potentials and make FCB stronger in the future.

Stop being a douche free No need to make those kinda personal jabs...

tonykross wrote:Free_Cat, I don't want to label you a racist but your comments sound like one.we all want our Cantera to produce great players for our first team irrespective whether they're catalans,Asians,Africans,Americans or from the Moon.I would like Deulofeu, Dongou,Rafinhna and all the other great prospects to realise their potentials and make FCB stronger in the future.

Please, erase this sentence where you say I'm racist. Is way off the mark. Would a racist coach a youth team full of black kids? Would Samuel Eto'o be a favourite player of a racist?

tonykross wrote:Free_Cat, I don't want to label you a racist but your comments sound like one.we all want our Cantera to produce great players for our first team irrespective whether they're catalans,Asians,Africans,Americans or from the Moon.I would like Deulofeu, Dongou,Rafinhna and all the other great prospects to realise their potentials and make FCB stronger in the future.

Its not racism... It has nothing to do with his skin colour or race. Its simply a fact that in some countries birth certificates are not given. African countries like Cameroon have a history in football of having these age problems.

We have the same thing in Australia with Islander boys playing Rugby League. Often they don't have a birth certificate until they arrive in Australia, which means their legal birth could be when they are 2 or 3 years old.

Absolutely nothing to do with racism. I also find accusations of racism as offensive as racism itself. Please keep it clean.

BarcaKizz wrote:I think its completely justified to have some concern about African youth players. There's nothing unfair or racist about having such concerns. You simply have to look at the history. Further, many of the African boys often develop early, making them look older than their Spanish companions. It has happened many times and will probably continue to happen. I don't think Dongou has an incorrect age, but there's no harm in keeping this concern in mind.

Like said before... we don't want another Haruna Babinguda.

It's baseless...Perhaps in the beginning but now?...Why aren't we questioning Samu's age as well while we're at it?

FCBarça wrote:

BarcaKizz wrote:I think its completely justified to have some concern about African youth players. There's nothing unfair or racist about having such concerns. You simply have to look at the history. Further, many of the African boys often develop early, making them look older than their Spanish companions. It has happened many times and will probably continue to happen. I don't think Dongou has an incorrect age, but there's no harm in keeping this concern in mind.

Like said before... we don't want another Haruna Babinguda.

It's baseless...Perhaps in the beginning but now?...Why aren't we questioning Samu's age as well while we're at it?

We could... of course we could. However, there is no need to because regardless of whether his age is wrong or right he made it at the top level and had a marvellous career.

Youth players is a different matter. Its where they tear it up at youth level (because they are actually older) and then fail once all the other players reach physical maturity.

Again, I don't believe Dongou is such a player at all, but this problem exists and shouldn't be ignored.

FCBarça wrote:
It's baseless...Perhaps in the beginning but now?...Why aren't we questioning Samu's age as well while we're at it?

I coached a kid born in Africa that didn't have a birth certificate two years ago FFS.

It's not racism, it happens all the time IN CATALUNYA. Probably not where you are from, where there are probably no african immigrants.

I understand the advantage of the age issue and that it has happened in 3rd world countries around the planet...I'm merely saying it's 4 years into his project here and to still suggest it's an issue is baseless

If he were some freak of physical nature or something, sure, but that's not the case with him...I would be curious to hear/read about discrepancies in Cameroonian footballers

free_cat wrote:

FCBarça wrote:
It's baseless...Perhaps in the beginning but now?...Why aren't we questioning Samu's age as well while we're at it?

I coached a kid born in Africa that didn't have a birth certificate two years ago FFS.

It's not racism, it happens all the time IN CATALUNYA. Probably not where you are from, where there are probably no african immigrants.

Where in Africa, it's a slightly large continent - it's not a country where everything is the same...And because you coached a kid who fabricated his age, that is a basis for questioning Jean-Marie's at a club like Barcelona?

Barcakizz, your assumptions are not also correct, La masia have not had a long history with African players until the Samuel Eto'o foundation signed an agreement with FC Barcelona. 15 players were recruited into La Masia, of the 15 players Gael Etock left for Sporting Lisbon and I don't have any information on the other four players. The remaining ten Cameroonians are doing great in their respective youth levels except for Armand Ella who has been injured all year. The other Africans I could remember are Haruna and one other Nigerian. I would also like to emphasize that youth development is very unpredictable, some players you might think would become superstars might not even make it as professionals and vice versa, Balottelli was even rejected by La Masia and he has the potentials to become a superstar, if he has his attitude right.

FCBarça wrote:
If he were some freak of physical nature or something, sure, but that's not the case with him...

Yeah, cause Dongou is all about finesse, skills, elegance and ability. Do you even know who is Dongou?

free_cat wrote:

FCBarça wrote:
If he were some freak of physical nature or something, sure, but that's not the case with him...

Yeah, cause Dongou is all about finesse, skills, elegance and ability. Do you even know who is Dongou?

I can see that four years of seeing Pep Guardiola as a coach and how he conducts himself didn't lend itself too well to a young fan who coaches kids

Free_Cat I didn't say you're racist, I just said your comments sound like one. I'm sorry if you thought otherwise.

FCBarça wrote:

free_cat wrote:

FCBarça wrote:
It's baseless...Perhaps in the beginning but now?...Why aren't we questioning Samu's age as well while we're at it?

I coached a kid born in Africa that didn't have a birth certificate two years ago FFS.

It's not racism, it happens all the time IN CATALUNYA. Probably not where you are from, where there are probably no african immigrants.

Where in Africa, it's a slightly large continent - it's not a country where everything is the same...And because you coached a kid who fabricated his age, that is a basis for questioning Jean-Marie's at a club like Barcelona?

The kid didn't fabricate his age, he didn't know it or have actual proof. You are being racist to suggest that.
He was from Gambia, but I know plenty of other cases of Gambians and Nigerians (no cameroonians in my town). African administrative chaos is something spread.

Btw, even our club president, Sandro Rosell, has doubts of the age of many of our african players in the Masia, and said so during his campaign, I can easily link it to you. I didn't like that he voiced these doubts publicly on the media because I feel is blaming the kids, and he shouldn't do that cause they are innocent: they just don't know their real age. He also said that la Masia should focus on Catalan players. I criticized both statements when this happened in this forum for being innapropiate the first one, and xenophobic the second (Kizz or other fellow members probably remember).

FCBarça wrote:

free_cat wrote:

FCBarça wrote:
If he were some freak of physical nature or something, sure, but that's not the case with him...

Yeah, cause Dongou is all about finesse, skills, elegance and ability. Do you even know who is Dongou?

I can see that four years of seeing Pep Guardiola as a coach and how he conducts himself didn't lend itself too well to a young fan who coaches kids

No, but seriously, do you know who is dongou? Cause you made me really wonder with your comment that he is not a phyisical freak, when everything that stands out of his game is his speed, power and strength.

We can see in the following picture the leanness and fragility of Dongou's body:

Free_cat what do you define as technique in football as youth coach ? is Deulofeu more technical than Dongou and in what aspects ? lets discuss football here, I would like to know your thoughts.

Free_cat, that picture of Dongou is very misleading, he does not have that much muscles, I think he is one of the smallest players in Juvenile A with Grimaldo in terms of size.