OFFTOPIC: Copa America 2011

Oh and Argentina were clearly the better team and should have gone through.
Just werent clinical.
But thats the way it goes.Sometimes the best team doesnt win.
Uruguay played well a man down and fair job to them.

And at the risk of sounding arrogant I have once again been proven right.
Argetina just dont have the personnel to play the possession game or atleast one that gets the best out of Messi.
He is the only creative player in the side and the opposition knows that.
When Argentina play possession Messi is the only one creating chances.
How many chances were created by players other than Messi throughout the tournament?
Not much I suppose.
So teams swarm Messi.They have 3 players on him as soon as he gets the ball.
I dont care what the haters say.No player in history would be able to deal with that in the modern game.
Not Pele,not Maradona,not even Cruyff.

So what then do you do?
You counterattack.Play a well organzied,defensive game and counterattack with lightning pace and deadly efficiency.Make Messi play the number 10 in a 4-2-3-1 with Aguero,Di Maria and Higuain as the other forwards and work on a counter attacking game.Play like Geramny at WC 10.
Messi gets a little bit more space and breathing room and he becomes the player all Cules know he is.
I had said this a year and a half ago before the WC.Alas no manager has tried it.

Also what the hell were Argentina playing tonight?
It looked like a damn 4-4-2.

What More Could Messi Have Done :-

1. One- Twos : One of the things that irritates me most about the present Argentina team is the complete inability of the players to play one-twos. One-twos is usually one of Messi's biggest weapons. When playing for Barcelona so many times he has a quick one two with Iniesta, Villa or any other player for that matter.

2. Visionary Passing : In this team Messi seems to be the only one capable of passing with guile and imagination. He got that wonderful assist with a lovely pass. Even otherwise he kept trying to give passes throughout the game - at times they went correct and at times they didn't. However even when he did make the right pass the player receiving it seemed to have very little idea what to do with it.

3. Quality Shooting : Another one of Messi's big strengths but playing away from goal behind several forwards rarely gave him the space to take the kind of shots that could have made a difference.

4. Dribbling : This is where I am a little confused. A player of Messi's intelligence would have realized that none of the ways mentioned above or for that matter any subtle way to break and win the game were working. So why not just go on some of his mazy dribbles? At least that would have given their backline problems, could have possibly got a penalty or opened up space for some team mate of his to take a chance at goal.

amazingly in the general section the 99% fault for Argentina's defeat was Messi's underperformance.

I can't help but lol at the haters

alex, you have posted some wonderful comments and I would like to reply in detail.

Yes Argentina were the better team. However what is very troubling is that we played our worst when we had the man advantage. At that time Uruguay surprisingly matched us on an even keel defending brilliantly and Luis Suarez was kind of causing just as much trouble in our penalty area as Messi was causing in theirs.

Yes we were a little unlucky. Yes given the kind of tackles both teams made, the referee could have easily given a card or two less to us and a card or two more to them. However these are trifles. We have only ourselves to blame. About the penalty shoot out I was confused whether it was Uruguay or Germany we were facing. Every single spot kick of theirs was perfectly placed.

Also your suggestion of counter-attacking football as I have said before is very good. The trouble is that a short passing slow possession game is Argentina's traditional style and they just never seem to change it or even want to change it even when they don't have the players for it. What is more worrying for me though is that at least we should have tried a mix and match strategy. I mean I didn't see any use of speed. Why didn't Di Maria and Aguero run on the wings to create problems? Zanetti even at this age played well but it's too much to ask him to do this. Zabaleta is quite decent defensively but he seems a total zero when asked to attack. All he does is move towards goal and take one shot after another. At such a time it was the wing forwards who should have taken the initiative but they didn't. Aguero and Di Maria were one poorer than the other. I guess I got some idea why Pep doesn't want Aguero - he can hardly play on the wings. Higuain did play well though - nice holding the ball, nice finish and some nice sharp reactions as well.

As for the formation alex I think it was a very disorganized 4-2-2-2.

Face it guys, Messi is an internacional FLOP













































JOKE

to be honest, as long as he performs with Barca I couldn't care less

Ultimately as an Argentina fan this is one of the lowest moments of desolation. Last night I lost whatever little hope I had of winning WC 2014. In fact we will very likely not even make it to the semi finals for the umpteenth time.

At this point we need a genius manager, say someone like Pep Guardiola, to get the formation and tactics right and most importantly choose the right player for every position. Even if we somehow get that it's too high a mountain to climb in three years.

I guess Argentina have to be called the biggest international under-achievers. Look at every other big team this century. Brazil - WC 2002 winners. Italy - WC 2006 winners. Germany - WC 2002 finalists and always there and thereabouts. France - WC 2006 finalists. Spain - WC 2010 winners. Netherlands - WC 2010 finalists. Even Portugal reached the semi final in WC 2006. So we have only England to match us and they hardly have the kind of talent we have. It's just pathetic.

I mean look at this Copa. It really had everything for us to win. We were at home. We had Messi. There wasn't any particularly strong team - we didn't have to play Spain, Germany or Netherlands. What did we finally achieve? One victory against a team of kids from a country which was never a big name in football. The thought is sickening to say the least.

Looking back I among others have blamed Juan Roman Riquelme for not being able to win us the trophies. However since he left the scene the team has only regressed. At least he took us close. Now we are out of sight.

Argentina have always liked to play around a creative midfielder - first Diego Maradona, then Ariel Ortega, then Juan Sebastian Veron and then Juan Roman Riquelme. Now that we don't have anyone we are forcing a forward like Messi to do that role.

Our last trophy was Copa America 1993. The next competition we will play is WC 2014. That means a gap of at least 21 years for a trophy and I am saying that while keeping in mind that we have negligible chance of winning the world cup. Now that we are out we won't even be playing Confed 2013. So for the next three years we don't get to play any competition. Only world cup qualifiers and friendlies which are largely irrelevant.

I guess we should stop reading anything from friendlies. After those wins against Spain, Brazil and Portugal, who would have thought this is the kind of level we would display at an international competition? So let's see if our team can make any progress solely judging by the world cup qualifiers. At the moment it looks as if even qualification will be an uphill battle since this tournament has shown that football in South America has become very even.

So for the next three years how will Argentina treat Messi? I shudder to think of it. How many times would he be reminded of his miss in extra time? At least he didn't miss his penalty in the shoot out or things would have been even worse. Now for three years he will not get a chance to redeem himself. Even if he shines in the qualifiers the people won't bother too much about that. The better he plays for Barcelona and the more trophies he wins, the more will be the negativity towards him.

Now the only thing that can happen to lessen my hurt is if Brazil were to get knocked out tonight. It's a very tough ask. However it's just so hard to digest that just within one year with a new team comprising of several kind Brazil have for the umpteenth time found a way to out-perform us at a competition. I guess we just seem to lack a winning mentality and even Uruguay seems to have a little more of it than us at the moment.

So finally would I of all people say that I can see shortcomings in the way Messi plays for Argentina? I mean this is a dangerous and controversial thing to say. I defended him zealously during the entire Maradona tenure. Even now of course there are lot of constraints he has to work under but we must not forget that most fans and pundits agreed the lineup and formation used against CostaRica was the way to go but it still failed. Considering the yardstick by which we judge him, that of all time greats, I can't forever keep making excuses and have to accept certain results over the last few years as facts. So I am now committing the outrageous act of trying to list down where I think Messi falls short when playing for Argentina.

1. Messi is not able to handle the weight of expectation. He feels too pressurized by it. This is something I have heard more than one pundit say as well. It's like he has been appointed Maradona's successor and everyone expects him to lead Argentina to world cup glory no matter what. Anything that he does even slightly wrong is severely criticized. Some of his own countrymen say he is a Catalan more than an Argentine. The media at times makes life hell for him. All this is becoming too much for him and I daresay I think football has had players who would have had more mental strength to be able to fight this situation than Messi has. I mean Rivaldo for instance was subject to similar accusations and then he performed brilliantly at WC 2002 and shut everyone up.

2. How strong is Messi mentally? I mean he is of course strong and has overcome a lot of personal adversities. However is he like crazily unfathomably strong to defy the odds and carry his team through. When he is tackled a bit too much his morale seems to go down. Shall I daresay Iniesta for instance would have shown greater resilience in such situations?

3. Messi is not able to rise above the level of his team. I just read that thread in the general section and amidst all the garbage people have made some good comments. One of the best points that I can recall is that Messi of course plays well but he is not really able to rise beyond the level of the team and really be able to drive things his way in spite of all the limitations as one of the best players of all time would be expected to.

4. Does Messi try to play too much like Barcelona even with Argentina? I mean he can see as even I can that the moves are just not working because his Argentine team mates are neither on the same wavelength nor are they as good as his Barcelona team mates. Hence at such times you need to think of something different or try to do more on your own. Messi is not able to take such a decision at the right time and keeps trying the same things over and over again. If you recall in WC 2010 he was trying to dribble too much in the middle of the field that was usually leading to nothing. Then again in the 2009-10 season his dribbling had been brilliant and he had won us a lot of games just using his dribbling and finishing. Now in Copa America 2011 he has been trying more subtle play and visionary passing. That's because in the 2010-11 season he has become an even more mature and versatile player for Barcelona. However when he tries that for Argentina and sees that it isn't working he still persists with it. He is unable to judge the level and state of his current team and change his game style accordingly. I can't help feeling that subtlety was not working with these team mates and what was needed was drive, energy, speed and trying hard to dribble into the box and beyond. That might have both unsettled the opposition and inspired his team mates a little more.

5. I go back to dani's point that Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Zidane had a little more in their locker to break a game. With Messi he goes too much for the tried and tested. When that is not working he is rarely able to come up with something out of the box that would take the opposition totally by surprise.

Overall as of today I can hardly put Messi in an all time top ten list - joint tenth with some other players at best for me.

Now having written all that I understand that my post will not be liked by some Barcelona fans. alex in particular may take great exception to it. billion of course. bazinga maybe. lm as well. Of course there are others. So to all of you all I want to say is whatever I have written I haven't written with complete confidence. It's just a random collection of some thoughts going through my mind at the moment. Maybe in a few days time I will myself realize that I was largely wrong.

Messi just needs to mature. We forget that he is only 24 years old. Almost everyone at that age are learning the tricks of the trade they are in.

Sure, he has amazing talent and when used correctly he is lethal. But he does not know how to use himself yet. Nobody becomes a leader at that age. If you want an example in the football world, look no further than Arsenal. A bunch of 24-25 year olds are not really going to win you the league.

None of the so called masters were rising above their team at that age. All of them developed a certain level of maturity before effectively applying themselves and that comes only with age and a better understanding of your trade.

Another thing was that argentina tried to play a quick possession football in high tempo which made them exhausted and in the second half they couldnt take advantage of extra man.Messi was very tired in the second half.Should have played in a lower tempo.

messixaviesta wrote:What More Could Messi Have Done :-

1. One- Twos : One of the things that irritates me most about the present Argentina team is the complete inability of the players to play one-twos. One-twos is usually one of Messi's biggest weapons. When playing for Barcelona so many times he has a quick one two with Iniesta, Villa or any other player for that matter.

2. Visionary Passing : In this team Messi seems to be the only one capable of passing with guile and imagination. He got that wonderful assist with a lovely pass. Even otherwise he kept trying to give passes throughout the game - at times they went correct and at times they didn't. However even when he did make the right pass the player receiving it seemed to have very little idea what to do with it.

3. Quality Shooting : Another one of Messi's big strengths but playing away from goal behind several forwards rarely gave him the space to take the kind of shots that could have made a difference.

4. Dribbling : This is where I am a little confused. A player of Messi's intelligence would have realized that none of the ways mentioned above or for that matter any subtle way to break and win the game were working. So why not just go on some of his mazy dribbles? At least that would have given their backline problems, could have possibly got a penalty or opened up space for some team mate of his to take a chance at goal.

For one-two's NOBODY on the Argentina team tries them with Messi, Di Maria and Lavezzi used to do it all game during the friendlies. The only person I saw playing quick one touch and pass football was Pastore, he needs to start.

As for dribbling, I thought Messi was in top gear for dribbling tonight, I mean I can't even count how many times he dribbled a player it was ridiculous, but it didn't pay off because there were just too many players in the box to do it near the penalty area.

Adit wrote:Another thing was that argentina tried to play a quick possession football in high tempo which made them exhausted and in the second half they couldnt take advantage of extra man.Messi was very tired in the second half.Should have played in a lower tempo.

In extra time he was, not in the second half, in the second half it appeared he was moved off to the wing and he seemed a bit cut off and had a lack of supply at times.

alexjanosik wrote:Oh and Argentina were clearly the better team and should have gone through.
Just werent clinical.
But thats the way it goes.Sometimes the best team doesnt win.
Uruguay played well a man down and fair job to them.

Agreed, Uruguay played like crap and got through and pretty much dumb luck as I hate to say it, they were out to break up play from the beginning with a defensive set up. Argentina just weren't direct enough.

messixaviesta wrote:Ultimately as an Argentina fan this is one of the lowest moments of desolation. Last night I lost whatever little hope I had of winning WC 2014. In fact we will very likely not even make it to the semi finals for the umpteenth time.

At this point we need a genius manager, say someone like Pep Guardiola, to get the formation and tactics right and most importantly choose the right player for every position. Even if we somehow get that it's too high a mountain to climb in three years.

I guess Argentina have to be called the biggest international under-achievers. Look at every other big team this century. Brazil - WC 2002 winners. Italy - WC 2006 winners. Germany - WC 2002 finalists and always there and thereabouts. France - WC 2006 finalists. Spain - WC 2010 winners. Netherlands - WC 2010 finalists. Even Portugal reached the semi final in WC 2006. So we have only England to match us and they hardly have the kind of talent we have. It's just pathetic.

I mean look at this Copa. It really had everything for us to win. We were at home. We had Messi. There wasn't any particularly strong team - we didn't have to play Spain, Germany or Netherlands. What did we finally achieve? One victory against a team of kids from a country which was never a big name in football. The thought is sickening to say the least.

Looking back I among others have blamed Juan Roman Riquelme for not being able to win us the trophies. However since he left the scene the team has only regressed. At least he took us close. Now we are out of sight.

Argentina have always liked to play around a creative midfielder - first Diego Maradona, then Ariel Ortega, then Juan Sebastian Veron and then Juan Roman Riquelme. Now that we don't have anyone we are forcing a forward like Messi to do that role.

Our last trophy was Copa America 1993. The next competition we will play is WC 2014. That means a gap of at least 21 years for a trophy and I am saying that while keeping in mind that we have negligible chance of winning the world cup. Now that we are out we won't even be playing Confed 2013. So for the next three years we don't get to play any competition. Only world cup qualifiers and friendlies which are largely irrelevant.

I guess we should stop reading anything from friendlies. After those wins against Spain, Brazil and Portugal, who would have thought this is the kind of level we would display at an international competition? So let's see if our team can make any progress solely judging by the world cup qualifiers. At the moment it looks as if even qualification will be an uphill battle since this tournament has shown that football in South America has become very even.

So for the next three years how will Argentina treat Messi? I shudder to think of it. How many times would he be reminded of his miss in extra time? At least he didn't miss his penalty in the shoot out or things would have been even worse. Now for three years he will not get a chance to redeem himself. Even if he shines in the qualifiers the people won't bother too much about that. The better he plays for Barcelona and the more trophies he wins, the more will be the negativity towards him.

Now the only thing that can happen to lessen my hurt is if Brazil were to get knocked out tonight. It's a very tough ask. However it's just so hard to digest that just within one year with a new team comprising of several kind Brazil have for the umpteenth time found a way to out-perform us at a competition. I guess we just seem to lack a winning mentality and even Uruguay seems to have a little more of it than us at the moment.

Thank you for this post, JD, it made me depressed but it was a good read.

messixaviesta wrote:

Spoiler:

I think you're just blaming Messi too much, there's really only so much he can do when he's the only one attacking, it's literally him against an entire parked bus, no other player is creating any decent chances, look at every chance created in this copa, all but maybe one or two were created by Messi.

Tonight, Messi proved to me that Messi has the potential leadership and the mentality to handle any pressure that he might have, he gave it his all, his heart and soul he poured it into this game, when Messi's shot was blocked in ET and he just fell to the ground, you could tell he was physically and emotionally exhausted, the pressure of a country and carrying it to Copa victory would do that to almost anybody. Messi stepped up when Argentina needed him to the most (assist only minutes after going down, leading the penalties), but Argentina couldn't step up when Messi needed them most, when everything seemed fine and dandy, we were up a man and we had an entire half to finish off the game, yet nobody could create a decent chance.

messixaviesta wrote:So finally would I of all people say that I can see shortcomings in the way Messi plays for Argentina? I mean this is a dangerous and controversial thing to say. I defended him zealously during the entire Maradona tenure. Even now of course there are lot of constraints he has to work under but we must not forget that most fans and pundits agreed the lineup and formation used against CostaRica was the way to go but it still failed. Considering the yardstick by which we judge him, that of all time greats, I can't forever keep making excuses and have to accept certain results over the last few years as facts. So I am now committing the outrageous act of trying to list down where I think Messi falls short when playing for Argentina.

1. Messi is not able to handle the weight of expectation. He feels too pressurized by it. This is something I have heard more than one pundit say as well. It's like he has been appointed Maradona's successor and everyone expects him to lead Argentina to world cup glory no matter what. Anything that he does even slightly wrong is severely criticized. Some of his own countrymen say he is a Catalan more than an Argentine. The media at times makes life hell for him. All this is becoming too much for him and I daresay I think football has had players who would have had more mental strength to be able to fight this situation than Messi has. I mean Rivaldo for instance was subject to similar accusations and then he performed brilliantly at WC 2002 and shut everyone up.

2. How strong is Messi mentally? I mean he is of course strong and has overcome a lot of personal adversities. However is he like crazily unfathomably strong to defy the odds and carry his team through. When he is tackled a bit too much his morale seems to go down. Shall I daresay Iniesta for instance would have shown greater resilience in such situations?

3. Messi is not able to rise above the level of his team. I just read that thread in the general section and amidst all the garbage people have made some good comments. One of the best points that I can recall is that Messi of course plays well but he is not really able to rise beyond the level of the team and really be able to drive things his way in spite of all the limitations as one of the best players of all time would be expected to.

4. Does Messi try to play too much like Barcelona even with Argentina? I mean he can see as even I can that the moves are just not working because his Argentine team mates are neither on the same wavelength nor are they as good as his Barcelona team mates. Hence at such times you need to think of something different or try to do more on your own. Messi is not able to take such a decision at the right time and keeps trying the same things over and over again. If you recall in WC 2010 he was trying to dribble too much in the middle of the field that was usually leading to nothing. Then again in the 2009-10 season his dribbling had been brilliant and he had won us a lot of games just using his dribbling and finishing. Now in Copa America 2011 he has been trying more subtle play and visionary passing. That's because in the 2010-11 season he has become an even more mature and versatile player for Barcelona. However when he tries that for Argentina and sees that it isn't working he still persists with it. He is unable to judge the level and state of his current team and change his game style accordingly. I can't help feeling that subtlety was not working with these team mates and what was needed was drive, energy, speed and trying hard to dribble into the box and beyond. That might have both unsettled the opposition and inspired his team mates a little more.

5. I go back to dani's point that Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Zidane had a little more in their locker to break a game. With Messi he goes too much for the tried and tested. When that is not working he is rarely able to come up with something out of the box that would take the opposition totally by surprise.

Overall as of today I can hardly put Messi in an all time top ten list - joint tenth with some other players at best for me.

Now having written all that I understand that my post will not be liked by some Barcelona fans. alex in particular may take great exception to it. billion of course. bazinga maybe. lm as well. Of course there are others. So to all of you all I want to say is whatever I have written I haven't written with complete confidence. It's just a random collection of some thoughts going through my mind at the moment. Maybe in a few days time I will myself realize that I was largely wrong.

jd
I will comment on your points one by one.
Firstly The Costa Rica game.You mention that the lineup and formation most fans and pundits agreed on was right.
I must admit I didnt see the full match.I just saw the highlights.So I cant say whether the formation was right or not.
But if it was anything like against Uruguay then the formation was completely wrong.
The personnel was right but the formation completely wrong.Argetina were playing a 4-4-2 or a 4-4-1-1 with Di Maria on the left and Messi on the right(drifting in occasionally).
What the hell was the coach thinking?
Messi is the only creative player in the side,the only one able to play the final pass and he sticks him out on the right!!!!!!
Because of this Messi was not able to playmake properly and he was not at all able to bring Di Maria into play(or Aguero had he played in the right and Messi through the centre).Plus towards the end he had Messi play as CF.What the hell again?
Plus the coach insisted on playing a possession game.And as I have repeatedly stated you just cant do that without the right players.Basically Argentina have bodybuilders as midfielders and one creative player in Messi who is the only one giving final passes.And then they play a possession game and then stick Messi out on the right.
What the hell?
Its easy for opposition teams to cut off Argentina the way they are set up.They know Argentina have a pathetic defense.They know Argentina have no creativity in midfield and that Messi is the only one on the team who can create.
So they lay off everyone else allowing the other Argentine players plenty of time on the ball knowing full well taht they wont do anything.As soon as Messi has the ball they have 3 players on him.
And I dont care if you are Pele or Maradona or Zidane or Ronaldo or Ronaldinho or even Cruyff.In the modern game there are no one man armies.Frankly put in the same situation Messi was in Zidane would have done anything,Ronaldinho wouldnt have done anything.
Nor would Maradona or Cruyff.Simply because there is very less space in the modern game.
Its a credit to Messi that even then he was able to create numerous chances every match.
If the coach foolishly insists on playing a possession game then have another creative player on the team.
Else go the common sense route,develop a counter attack style and watch Messi wreck havoc.

1)I dont think he has any problem with the weight of expectations.His track record on the biggest of stages speaks for itself.More he has a problem with coaches who dont know how to utilize him.

2)Messi is mentally very strong.Just because he doesnt growl on the pitch doesnt mean he is weak.He gets up after every challenge and keeps going.I point to the recent Clasico's.Madrid tried to end his career,yet he still got up every single time and completely destroyed them at the Bernabeau.

3)Interesting point.Here is my take on it.Messi is most definitely capable of rising above the level of his team provided he has a decent structure and a system is set up to get the best out of him.
You cant have a defense with Milito,Burdisso and the like,a dysfucntional midfield and a ridiculous tactical setup and then expect him to rise above the team.Give him a disciplined set up with a system suited to get the best out of him and then he will most definitely rise above the team.
On that note excatly how many players have risen above the level of the team?
Out of the all time greats I can only think of Maradona and even then he had a well disciplined team geared to get the best out of him.

4)You could have a point.But yesterday he did try to dribble.Just that there were too many players on him.
Still point is interesting and perhaps Leo can work on it.

5)Disagree as I have always done.Messi has more in his locker than all of them.Ronaldinho,Zidane or Ronaldo wouldnt have done anything for Argentina yesterday in such a setup.A possession set up,No other creative player in the team,3 men on them a soon as they had the ball,they would have struggled as much.

Last he is easily a top ten of all time.Right now I would place Cruyff,Di Stefano,Beckenbaeur,Pele,Maradona ahead of him.Maybe Zidane could be argued but I dont think so.
And judging solely on what I have seen(as in just rating them at their peak without considering trophy count) he is the second best I have ever seen.

"Messi has more in his locker than all of them.Ronaldinho,Zidane or Ronaldo wouldnt have done anything for Argentina yesterday in such a setup."

I agree completely, without Messi this team would be a complete disaster, he's the linchpin holding this deformed, retarded thing we call the argentina NT.

Otamendi and Garay are our future, let's hope they perform in Portugal and hone their skills.

So kiran you still hold hope for WC 2014? Last night I lost all hope though. Let's see if a miracle happens.

In a nutshell what I see in my mind right now is Messi lacking in two aspects compared to other all time greats. Not saying that he doesn't have those things but not quite to the same level. These two things are mental strength and creativity. Let's take them one by one.

As far as creativity goes I don't think I can suggest to Messi what more he could have done but do get the feeling there have been players who could have done more in terms of something unexpected and unorthodox. I can only give a few examples. Rivaldo in WC 2002 when he receives the ball on his right foot and in one swift motion he moves it to his left foot and shoots it straight into goal. Ronaldinho in UCL 2004-05 when he has the whole world shaking their head in amazement at having chipped the ball into goal in a manner no one expected. Zidane in WC 2006 against Brazil when the play is concentrated in the center and there are several Brazilians surrounding him and he is trying to dribble them. Suddenly he has made a diagonal back pass to his full back and the game has shifted from the center to the flanks unexpectedly in one swift motion leaving the Brazilians chasing shadows.

Now about mental strength. In this tournament I thought Messi was lacking something physically right through. I didn't quite see the drive in him to keep pushing for victory. Consider for example Robben in WC 2010 vs. Brazil. No visionary passing. No creativity. No great shots either. All he did was dribbled the life out of Michel Bastos leaving the latter in a begging for mercy state. Now I ask why couldn't Messi do that during the whole of the second half when we had a man advantage? Let's face it. Uruguay's defenders and midfielders did a commendable job last night but they are not world class players. I can't understand why Messi would not have been able to run them ragged. Also if he had tried it then I think Di Maria and Aguero would have joined in. He is expected to show the way but he didn't. Also it did seem like bad tackles were taking something out of his determination. It is really nasty to say this but did he not run and dribble his heart out at the edge of the box and beyond for fear of suffering a nasty tackle and getting injured for several months. I know I shouldn't say this but it's a thought that keeps coming to me and really bothering me.

Overall Messi seems to be to be very well capable of being the finest piece in a perfect jigsaw but not really capable of rising much beyond the limitations of an imperfect jigsaw. Do I think there have been other players who could have done better last night? Yes I do. Not saying about the world cup but at least considering the level of quality and competition at this Copa in my mind I can see players like Maradona and even Zidane in Messi's place winning it for Argentina. Hell even Xavi would have done much better. I am not saying Xavi is a better player than Messi but this team has so many quality forwards that having a central midfielder of Xavi's class may have been more beneficial than having Messi.

While saying all this let me clarify that I am not trying to save Messi's team mates from blame. Most of them were much worse. The only reason they are not being brought into this discussion is because this is about comparing Messi to all time greats. None of Messi's Argentine team mates including Aguero will I think ever come close to being an all time great. Yes we must leave Javier Zanetti out while saying this but this is mainly about attacking players any way. Yes Messi is Argentina's best player but the jury remains out on where exactly he stands in the pantheon of all time greats.

jd
You keep mentioning Ronaldinho and Zidane.
Ronnie had other creative players in the side,the likes of Deco,Xavi,Messi himself in the side.He never had the sole burden of creativity in a tactically inept side like Messi did.Had he been in Messi's shoes Argetina would have crashed just as badly and Ronnie would have struggled more.

Coming to Rivaldo that was an excellent Brazil side.Ronnie,Rivaldo and Ronaldo.
Again Rivaldo didnt have the sole burden of creativity.Rivaldo is one of my favorites of all time but he would have struggled even worse tha Messi in yesterdays setup.

Now to Zidane.What Zidane does with a football Messi does with an orange.
Also Zidane's France had a very good defense and were well organized.
Plus and this is often forgotten.Ribery was brilliant throughout the torunament and provided a lot of creativity.Infact he was just as good as Zidane.Malouda too had a good world cup.
So I struggle to see how Zidane rose above the team.
Lastly his performance against Brazil is way overrayed.That was an overweight, unprofessional Brazil.
Messi would have had a field day against them in the same situation.

lm and alex, some very interesting comments. I will try to reply to some of your points. Let me also mention that I was watching the match on a poor stream. Hence some of my conclusions could be erroneous.

lm, Messi's dribbling was good in the first half. After that he seemed to lack stamina for it. Also whatever danger Messi created with his dribbling in the first half Forlan matched with his free kicks. From half time onwards in spite of being a man down Uruguay's Suarez matched Messi in terms of dribbling and creating danger in the box. This is not something to be proud of.

alex, you say the coach made a mistake sticking Messi on the right. I say that this is where Messi could have gone back to basics. He tried to do a lot of play making to his credit but we all could see it wasn't really working. So what he should have done in my opinion is just dribbled the life out of the defense - even more so when he was shifted to the wing. They were a man down and he could created havoc like that but nothing of that sort happened.

Also I agree about the possession game being wrong but I can't really blame the coach. It's really difficult to ask a team that has for years played in that way to start playing in a counter-attacking style. This can be done if the coach is excellent and is given time. I don't think Batista is a bad coach but he is not excellent either. In one year if he had implemented that system it may have been developed to some extent. However he might have misled seeing what he had developed working so well in the friendlies.

If I have to write a final word on this it would be that Messi tried too much of subtle play making that was not working. Instead if he had spent more time and effort trying to just run and dribble at the edge of the box and beyond moving towards goal winning a penalty or at least free kicks I think this unidimensional team of unidimensional players might have been more inspired and found easier to join in the efforts. You need to change your game style depending on the characteristics and quality level of your team mates and the formation and tactics. Messi at present is not able to do that. I cannot forget that Zidane had Raymond Domenech for a coach and even then ran eleven man Brazil ragged for 90 minutes.

I dont know what is going to happen in WC 2014. But i know for sure that this loss is only going to motivate Leo to make himself better.

He did try to dribble the entire team JD. But they just kept fouling him and blocking him off all the time and that is when he resorted to putting in balls into the box for the other players to do something.

In my opinion, neither Ronaldinho nor Zidane could have done anything with this team. You should remember that Zidane had a very good team along with him and he knew what was expected from him.

Messi has not reached that stage yet where he knows exactly what is expected out of him. He will reach that stage eventually with time and then he will not need players like Xavi, Iniesta and Alves to help him.

alexjanosik wrote:jd
You keep mentioning Ronaldinho and Zidane.
Ronnie had other creative players in the side,the likes of Deco,Xavi,Messi himself in the side.He never had the sole burden of creativity in a tactically inept side like Messi did.Had he been in Messi's shoes Argetina would have crashed just as badly and Ronnie would have struggled more.

Coming to Rivaldo that was an excellent Brazil side.Ronnie,Rivaldo and Ronaldo.
Again Rivaldo didnt have the sole burden of creativity.Rivaldo is one of my favorites of all time but he would have struggled even worse tha Messi in yesterdays setup.

Now to Zidane.What Zidane does with a football Messi does with an orange.
Also Zidane's France had a very good defense and were well organized.
Plus and this is often forgotten.Ribery was brilliant throughout the torunament and provided a lot of creativity.Infact he was just as good as Zidane.Malouda too had a good world cup.
So I struggle to see how Zidane rose above the team.
Lastly his performance against Brazil is way overrayed.That was an overweight, unprofessional Brazil.
Messi would have had a field day against them in the same situation.

THIS!

Zidane had a very able Ribery as his cohort. Not to mention, Henry and Malouda with good defense to back him up. He played very well, but he was not the sole creative force in that team!

So guys, should Batista get the boot?
If so, who do you see as a viable replacement?

Suarez was such a b*tch last night, it has to be said. Any time he was attacking he would dive and throw a tantrum, quite annoying.

Poor Maschete...