OFFTOPIC: Copa America 2011

I agree Khaled, Banega made a horrible mistake

Matchday #2:
06/07/2011 - 21:45 (00:45+ GMT) - Santa Fe
Argentina vs Colombia


Matchday #3:
11/07/2011 - 21:45 (00:45+ GMT) - Córdoba
Argentina vs Costa Rica


ALL Fixtures: http://www.ca2011.com/jogos_todos.php

MY Opinion about match vs Bolivia

1- Aguero & Di maria should be starters!
replace Tevez & lavezzi

2- Pastore IN Banega Out!!
==>
Masch - Cambiasso
Pastore

Banega was average today, he didn't link with messi like he should, made some miss passes, over dribbled @ sometimes.. & his BIG mistake, tying to control a ball on the goalline!! WTF was he thinking? just fucken SHOOT the Ball!!!

3- Argentina needs more creativity..
Pastore In Banega Out could be a solution for next match..
If not, in 2nd half u can always play with:
Banega - Masch & Pastore onfront of them!!

4- MESSI IS NOT A MIDFIELDER!!!!!!!!!!!

i don't know what was Batista thinking...

Banega----------Masch
-----------Messi-----------

Aguero/Lavezzi - Tevez - Di Maria

WTF!!

simple!!!
yes he made some gd changes by playing with Di maria & aguero, that had very gd impact on the team, opposite to lavezzi & tevez, who were average... But he should have played with Messi upfront instead of Tevez.. with Pastore behind the forwards as a playmaker!

u can't play Messi in the midfield .. & expect him to do everything, when u have NO ONE to link with him.. he can't keep on dribbling 3 & 4 players all through the match lol..he needs some gd players, who can help him in buildup,links & play some 1-2 going forward!!

5- Messi played as a false 9 in 1st half & he was very gd!!

Banega - Masch -Cambiasso

Lavezzi - Messi - Tevez

Messi was very gd in first half & Argentina's Best player.. creating 3 or 4 dangerous chances (from great runs dribbling 3-4 players).. but tevez/lavezzi couldn't finish them..

------------

Solution imo:
1- u need more creativity..
Riquelme timeplayer in the midfield (Iniesta ).. maybe Pastore could be the solution ( he should take his chance)!!

2- Play with Aguero & Messi onfront of Pastore!!

`So conclusion: Play with this line-up

start with

Masch - Cambiasso
------Pastore-------

Aguero - Messi - Di Maria..

Aguero & Di Maria on the wing will do great..pastore playmaker, Messi in this case can drop in the midfield in buildup, pastore can help him going forward "link, simple passes, 1-2 etc.."...
Plus inno Masch + cambiasso==> will give more security in the defence..
IF it didn't work, just replcae Cambiasso by Banega to give more creativity in the midfield..Tevez can play 2nd half as an impact sub!!

Wonderful comment lm and khaled.

See when people criticized Messi at WC 2010 I thought that was very unfair because he actually played very well in a poor system and was a little unlucky. However today I would say this was Messi's worst game in a long time. When we say he's had a bad match for Barcelona it's actually only by his standards. However today morning the player on the pitch was not the Messi I know. You all have elaborated about the second half very well. In the first half a few dribbles may have been good but other than a couple of times it was just not productive. Not all his fault but the link up just wasn't there. Also he looked to me to be lacking energy as if the weight of a long hard season was showing upon him. Hope this is just an aberration and we will see the real Messi in the next match.

Lavezzi was absolutely atrocious. When a player takes the ball near the opposition area and continues to shoot wildly then all I feel like giving him is a slap. He couldn't possibly have played like this for Napoli all season. To promote meritocracy it's important that he not be started in the next match. In fact when Cambiasso was substituted I had expected Lavezzi would be the one replaced instead.

Tevez too wasn't in his element. It seems having to play away from goal doesn't suit him that well. Still with his kind of character he is sure to make something of it sooner rather than later. A little sloppy with his shots at times but will surely improve. Still maybe he can be used as a substitute in this system even better.

I thought Cambiasso and J.Zanetti were among the better players and the former was a little unlucky to come off a half time.

Now what about Bangea? He didn't play that badly but certainly not well. I would say some players just have a knack of shining out in moments while some have a habit of messing up. Hoping Banega doesn't end up in the latter fashion.

The defenders weren't really tested and for that matter the goal keeper. Their shortcomings might be more visible in future matches. Bolivia's striker missed an easy one on one but Brazil's striker is unlikely to do the same. Rojo was a disappointment and I would play Zabaleta in the next match.

Angel Di Maria may not have played very well but he did make an impact. After his introduction the attack had more verve to it.

Now for the man of the moment. Perhaps the time for Sergio Aguero to become one of the best players in the world has finally come. For a long time we have said here is an outstanding talent. Hope he moves to a big club now and plays at a high level for the highest of honors. When your team plays badly this is the kind of individual ability you need to save you. As for this tournament, let's hope he is made a starter and continues to show us his true potential.

I am currently flying from Boston to Argentina. Since I had dinner with the girlfriend's parents yesterday I didn't catch the game, so I downloaded the game and am now making observations in the flight. Just finished watching the first half, here are my overall impressions:

Half-Time Player Ratings:
Romero: 6.5 Did well when challenged but luckily didn’t have to do so very often
Zanetti: 6.5 A solid performance but didn’t add much either
Burdisso: 6.0 The weakest link so far, but again didn’t get many opportunities to mess up
Milito: 6.5 Surprisingly not bad, exceeding my low expectations
Rojo: 6.0 Again not much to do so far, but barely making any appearances while going forward
Mascherano: 7.0 A good performance for the midfielder, who bossed the midfield and recovered some important balls
Banega: 7.5 Argentina’s standout performer so far, distributing and controlling the ball with ease, pulling in some cerebral passes and being involved in nearly every dangerous move so far
Cambiasso: 7.0 A good first half by the Inter leader, who has displayed a great positional sense playing in a more advanced role than he is normally accustomed to.
Lavezzi: 6.5 The most involved forward, although that is not saying much. Missed out on a great opportunity to assist Cambiasso choosing to shoot instead, and has made some impact through the right wing.
Messi: 6.5 A bad game by his standards, played in 3 great passes but that sums up the extent of his contribution
Tevez: 6.0 I can count the amount of times he touched the ball with half a hand.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I am currently flying from Boston to Argentina. Since I had dinner with the girlfriend's parents yesterday I didn't catch the game, so I downloaded the game and am now making observations in the flight. Just finished watching the first half, here are my overall impressions:

Half-Time Player Ratings:
Romero: 6.5 Did well when challenged but luckily didn’t have to do so very often
Zanetti: 6.5 A solid performance but didn’t add much either
Burdisso: 6.0 The weakest link so far, but again didn’t get many opportunities to mess up
Milito: 6.5 Surprisingly not bad, exceeding my low expectations
Rojo: 6.0 Again not much to do so far, but barely making any appearances while going forward
Mascherano: 7.0 A good performance for the midfielder, who bossed the midfield and recovered some important balls
Banega: 7.5 Argentina’s standout performer so far, distributing and controlling the ball with ease, pulling in some cerebral passes and being involved in nearly every dangerous move so far
Cambiasso: 7.0 A good first half by the Inter leader, who has displayed a great positional sense playing in a more advanced role than he is normally accustomed to.
Lavezzi: 6.5 The most involved forward, although that is not saying much. Missed out on a great opportunity to assist Cambiasso choosing to shoot instead, and has made some impact through the right wing.
Messi: 6.5 A bad game by his standards, played in 3 great passes but that sums up the extent of his contribution
Tevez: 6.0 I can count the amount of times he touched the ball with half a hand.

If that is your assessment of Messi in the first half, I shudder to think what you'll make of his 2nd half performance. It was woeful by any standard.

And my much delayed second-half impressions!

Romero: 7.5 Flawless performance and fantastic double save in the one on one chance. Could not do anything against Banega’s stupidity.
Zanetti: 7.5 Another solid performance doubled with a greatly placed assist
Burdisso: 6.5 Had more chances to prove himself
Milito: 6.5 Pretty much the same as in the first half
Rojo: 6.0 Didn’t improve on his game and Batista should seriously consider Zabaleta
Mascherano: 7.0 Continued bossing the midfield
Banega: 5.5 His influence gone and an own-goal. Talk about a game of two halves.
Di Maria: 7.0 Managed to inject the side with more life, he gave the pass to Zanetti that would end on a goal, and overall contributed more than Lavezzi and Tevez combined
Lavezzi: 6.0 A frustrated evening for him as his nervousness clearly got the best of him. Managed to break the defensive line plenty of times only to waste those chances by shooting the ball with no chance of making it.
Messi: 6.0 Was he even playing? If so, I didn’t notice
Tevez: 6.0 Same as Messi. Who would have thought Argentina’s attack would be the main cause of its problems?

I was going to make a post indicating my train of thought on several points of the game, but I think zonal marking has got it covered pretty well.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/07/02/argentina-1-1-bolivia-batista-tries-two-systems-but-neither-works-well-as-bolivia-grab-point/

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I was going to make a post indicating my train of thought on several points of the game, but I think zonal marking has got it covered pretty well.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/07/02/argentina-1-1-bolivia-batista-tries-two-systems-but-neither-works-well-as-bolivia-grab-point/

Reading through and also from watching the game myself, my opinion is Pastore needs to start in games vs the lower level teams. Instead of Cambiasso maybe.

Also, I would consider playing Di Maria on the right and Lavezzi on the left.

To me, it looked like all the forwards were outnumbered in the final 1/3. It looked very much like a 3 man Argentina attack vs 8 defenders.

The biggest difference I see between Barca and Argentina is this.

Cambiasso, Mascherano and Banega are the guys who "play possession" whereas for Barca, its Xavi, Busi and Iniesta...big difference.

The line up/formation is almost a contradiction of the style.

However, I dont wish to do any exaggeration, its just one game. Also, in the first half, Argentina played pretty well for me, without scoring.

I think Argentine players lack faith in the system. Whenever they come under pressure the Barca style seems to disappear and long balls start appearing, sacrilege at Barca. I agree that there is some semblance of Barcelona in the NT, but with Banega doing the roles of both Xavi and Iniesta, while the FBs don't do enough going forward combined to even come close to half the workd Dani Alves does in one game. 'ArgenBarca' is but a dream.

What I do hope is that Tevez never starts again. Or rather, that he only starts if Messi is unwilling or unable to start. He should be Messi's replacement, but should not be part of the starting eleven.

The Franchise wrote:
The biggest difference I see between Barca and Argentina is this.

Cambiasso, Mascherano and Banega are the guys who "play possession" whereas for Barca, its Xavi, Busi and Iniesta...big difference.

The line up/formation is almost a contradiction of the style.

100% on the money.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I think Argentine players lack faith in the system. Whenever they come under pressure the Barca style seems to disappear and long balls start appearing, sacrilege at Barca. I agree that there is some semblance of Barcelona in the NT, but with Banega doing the roles of both Xavi and Iniesta, while the FBs don't do enough going forward combined to even come close to half the workd Dani Alves does in one game. 'ArgenBarca' is but a dream.

What I do hope is that Tevez never starts again. Or rather, that he only starts if Messi is unwilling or unable to start. He should be Messi's replacement, but should not be part of the starting eleven.

Very interesting thoughts. Agree with everything else but not so sure about dropping Tevez immediately. I would rather drop Lavezzi first.

Overall which team do you all think played worse - Argentina or Brazil?

I would say Brazil was just marginally better. For the first twenty five minutes or so they did impose their style and were able to move the ball as they liked. In the second half they were atrocious no doubt. Pato not being a real number 9 cost Brazil quite a lot. Argentina on the other hand did not even dominate the match for ten minutes at a stretch if I remember correctly.

Also who were each team's poorest players. For Argentina I think it was Lavezzi while for Brazil it was Ganso.

messixaviesta wrote:Very interesting thoughts. Agree with everything else but not so sure about dropping Tevez immediately. I would rather drop Lavezzi first.

Here is why I disagree: Tevez is not suited to play LW on a 4-3-3, whereas that is exactly where Lavezzi plays every Sunday. Lavezzi was nervous, he tried doing too much, you could see the presssure on his body language, and eventually this became frustration. It's okay, this was his biggest to date game ever with the NT. While he did try to shoot every chance he got rather than passing it smartly, he at least opened spaces and created half-chances. He did what he was supposed to do: cut diagonally to open up spaces for Messi which they can both make the most of. In short, I think that while he played awful he could play better in future games and he's the best suited for this role in the team.

Tevez, who was supposed to do the same thing than Lavezzi but on the left wing, did no such thing. He failed to open spaces. He failed to extend the backline. He played much more centrally than he was supposed to and as a result not only was he not effective but he also got in Messi's way. As a result, Messi ended up playing much deeper than he should and Tevez failed to fulfill the functions of his role. This could've been made up for if Tevez had some chemistry with Messi but this is not the case.

Batista said he wanted Messi in the 'last 30 meters' yet when Argentina switched in the 4-2-3-1 Messi was playing at the same height than Banega, which is no doubt stemmed from the fact that Tevez was playing in front. With someone like Higuain in front I doubt this would have happened. It's deja vu from South Africa all over again.

I suppose my overall point is that Lavezzi had a bad game, whereas Tevez just gets in the way of the system and thus should be replaced.

I agree Alf that Tevez playing forces Messi deeper.

But I also think, the in ability of the midfield was a bigger factor.

Banega is the passer and he did that, but he isnt a ball carrier. You cant have just him with the responsibility of finding Messi with the ball. That cannot be the only way.

What happens is, Banega has the ball, if he cannot find Messi straight away (which is normal, it takes build up to get it into the final 1/3) he has to pass the ball on. However, Cambiasso, Mascherano, the fullbacks, none of them are able to make forward passes or even dribbles into good areas. Therefore, Messi, who now has gone a long time without being involved, naturally pulls up to collect the ball. He comes up too far, because the midfield can only get the ball forward to that certain point and we end up with Messi with the ball on the half way line.

Tevez inability to stretch teams, which I am not surprised in, is a factor, but I think the midfield is at least as big a factor.

But on Lavezzi-Tevez, its an easy one.

Lavezzi had a subpar game but did so in the confines of the system, he made technical and decision making errors..but he didnt do anything fundamentally going against the system.

Tevez did.

Overall, its not Tevez's fault he couldnt do those things mentioned, its not his normal game and trying to get a 28 year old to change that much is destined to fail.

I suppose I might be scapegoating Tevez too much, but it just pisses me off the way in which he broke into the team. It was completely political and not football related. I'm very angry at that turn of events, especially if it will end up costing us more than it has so far

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I suppose I might be scapegoating Tevez too much, but it just pisses me off the way in which he broke into the team. It was completely political and not football related. I'm very angry at that turn of events.

I can understand, it has surprised me also.

I also dont like the fact, its not as if Tevez was on red hot form at the end of the season, he missed some games with injury.

So on a team or a personal performance level, Tevez isnt a must.

Di Maria I think has gotten the short end of the stick, he had a good season for sure, he is a very good player and more importantly he fits the identity of the team more.

from what ive heard from batista,aguero is closer to the starting position rather than di maria

btw,I personally thought that lavezzi was good against Bolivia,not half as bad as people made him look,very dynamic and great dibbling,he was just nervous when making decisions.

Mexico 1 - 0 Chile HT

Chile overall were better, missed alot of chances, but Mexico was always dangerous with GDS :S GDS is too gd :S scored a goal from GK/Defence mistake!


Sanchez was gd overall, he was playing on left, rigth everywhere upfront. i liked his movements!
best thing about him, not alot of forwards has it, when he losses the ball he always tracks back to recover the ball, most of the time he gets it back... workrate is very gd, passing is gd, he tries sometomes to play 1 -2s, which could with alves on right, this combination could work
also a very gd dribbler as we all know !!

I wouldn't criticize the players per se.......I would criticize the system and the coach.
3DM midfield in a 4 -3 -3 = a lot of possesion but no meaningful link to the forward line

alfred and dani, wonderful thoughts. Your comments make very good sense and there is hardly anything much to debate.

dani, you have a knack for using the right term to make something very clear. That saying Banega is not a ball carrier really explains it as well as needed.

alfred, I am not so negative about Tevez coming back. I don't see what he did wrong. He went up to the coach and explained that he is not the kind of individual that he has been perceived to be and would like a fair chance. I thought it was great of him to swallow his ego for the pride of playing for his country - something players like Riquelme would never do. Also I thought Batista acted fairly and justly to take him back even though his earlier comments made him look a little foolish. Now as to why he became a starter? I suppose Batista felt Tevez has more big game experience than Aguero and went for that.

dani, Tevez isn't a must in the starting lineup I agree but he is nice to have in the squad.

BTW a quick question here. You all have explained very well what Tevez could not do properly. Do you think Aguero can do that? I would say even that is doubtful which effectively means that our default starters should be Lavezzi and Di Maria.

Grondona's comment is way off the line. When a team does not get the desired result it's a collective responsibility. It's a terrible idea to single out some for praise and some for blame. People at a higher level such a coaches and presidents doing it is even worse. If you do it at the end of a tournament then you can be forgiven for being human but doing so when the tournament has just started is plain wrong. We are all huge fans of Messi but there is no denying this was one of his poorest games we have seen in a long time.

shini, your point is valid and we have discussed that. I wouldn't totally blame the coach and would like to give him some more time. The weak defense and the likelihood that Javier Pastore does not have the maturity to play a very complex role of a central attacking midfielder have kind of forced the coach to play such a static midfield. In such a system Messi can't be blamed for dropping back but he needs to be very smart not to overdo it. He seriously is expected to do a Maradona-esque role as I have said before which is much more than what a false number 9 normally does.

dani and others, any comments on Brazil?

You don't understand the context of Grondona's comments, JD. Messi gets ridiculous amounts of criticism in Argentina because he is not able to do with the Nt what he can do with Barca. Thus, in that comment Grondona is actually shielding Messi from even more added pressure.

Batista: Argentina's starting Xi vs Colombia (4-3-3):

Romero
Zabaleta, Burdisso, G.Milito, Zanetti
Banega, Mascherano, Cambiasso
Lavezzi, Messi, Tevez

So its Zabaleta IN Rojo Out!
Where is Pastore & Aguero :@ !!!

http://www.goal.com/en/news/60/south-america/2011/07/06/2562461/argentina-coach-sergio-batista-hands-lionel-messi-carlos?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Batista is playing with fire here.....If we don't play good in the next match we will face the very real possibility of losing out in the group stage. After River's relegation, this would just add more fuel to a very bright fire. However, Batista would deserve it considering the defenders who he called up are so bad that he has to play 3 DMs.
I feel sorry for messi the most. Not only he is missing out on another cup because of bad coaching, but he will probably be criticized even more in Argentina.