Re: OFFTOPIC: Copa America 2011

by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:21 pm

Suarez was such a b*tch last night, it has to be said. Any time he was attacking he would dive and throw a tantrum, quite annoying.

Poor Maschete...

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:22 pm

Wow JD sounds even more disillusioned than me Very Happy

All I really have to say at this stage is that it was an even game, Argentina created more chances but failed to convert them. The setup was wrong and perhaps even the players in the starting eleven. The defense were just a bunch of thugs, bar Zanetti. On another day, with exactly the same match, Argentina might have won 3 our of 4 times. Not today though, and that's a damn shame.

The first change I want to see is Batista stepping down. This copa proved that he is tactically inept. I want him out and to find a libertadores/multiple primera titles winning coach to replace him. Sabella, perhaps. The sooner we switch, the better. Sadly, he keeps reminding us that he has a 4 year contract...

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:22 pm

alexjanosik wrote:jd
You keep mentioning Ronaldinho and Zidane.
Ronnie had other creative players in the side,the likes of Deco,Xavi,Messi himself in the side.He never had the sole burden of creativity in a tactically inept side like Messi did.Had he been in Messi's shoes Argetina would have crashed just as badly and Ronnie would have struggled more.

Coming to Rivaldo that was an excellent Brazil side.Ronnie,Rivaldo and Ronaldo.
Again Rivaldo didnt have the sole burden of creativity.Rivaldo is one of my favorites of all time but he would have struggled even worse tha Messi in yesterdays setup.

Now to Zidane.What Zidane does with a football Messi does with an orange.
Also Zidane's France had a very good defense and were well organized.
Plus and this is often forgotten.Ribery was brilliant throughout the torunament and provided a lot of creativity.Infact he was just as good as Zidane.Malouda too had a good world cup.
So I struggle to see how Zidane rose above the team.
Lastly his performance against Brazil is way overrayed.That was an overweight, unprofessional Brazil.
Messi would have had a field day against them in the same situation.

Well alex we have to agree to disagree to some extent.

About Rivaldo perhaps yes. He may not have been able to do too much more.

About Ronaldinho it's really hard. He was just wildly unpredictable. It's possible that he could have had a game much worse than Messi did but it's also possible that he would have done something and found some way in a manner than neither you nor I can think of.

About Zidane. You said they had Ribery and Malouda which is fair but I say we also had Aguero and Di Maria. How much better are those two compared to our two? Also you say that it was an unfit Brazil but it was still eleven men and most of them were world class players. What we faced last night was ten men and most of them were not even close to being world class.

by Adit Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:28 pm

and zidane was 35 lol

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:28 pm

kiranr wrote:
He did try to dribble the entire team JD. But they just kept fouling him and blocking him off all the time and that is when he resorted to putting in balls into the box for the other players to do something.

Yes he tried but something was lacking in terms of speed, energy and even sheer mental will. At such times a player has to fight through fire and Messi couldn't quite do that. I mean if one Robben managed to cause so many problems to Dunga's full strength Brazil, why couldn't Messi against ten men Uruguay? This is something that really perplexes me. Also Iniesta in WC 2010 final. van Bommel and De Jong broke his legs umpteen times but he still got up every single time and drove the team forward again and again right till he finally scored that goal. Do you think Messi would have shown the same kind of resilience? To be very honest I am not sure but I doubt it.

by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:29 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:Suarez was such a b*tch last night, it has to be said. Any time he was attacking he would dive and throw a tantrum, quite annoying.

Poor Maschete...

I'm thinking about making a thread in the general section about this, because there hasn't been really any mention of this disgraceful dive at all, and it got me thinking because Alves is lambasted to this day for 'faking an injury' vs Madrid and Pepe's sending off, yet you can see here Suarez rolling around for a good minute and taking out his own legs. Do people hate diving and injury feigning here? or do they just hate Barcelona?

by kiranr Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:32 pm

The best teams will always have haters LM!

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:34 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
The first change I want to see is Batista stepping down. This copa proved that he is tactically inept. I want him out and to find a libertadores/multiple primera titles winning coach to replace him. Sabella, perhaps. The sooner we switch, the better. Sadly, he keeps reminding us that he has a 4 year contract...

alfred, I don't disagree but whether it is Sabella or Bianchi, I don't really trust them. I mean Bielsa, Pekerman and Basile were pretty accomplished coaches, right? What they couldn't do though is face up to the modern European game. Hence there is hardly anything to make me believe these two will be able to do that. What Argentina really need is a big name coach from European club football. Since we will be against employing foreigners at the moment I can hardly see anyone worthy enough. I would have really liked to see our very own Pep Guardiola take charge of this team and bring the best out of Messi.

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:35 pm

To be honest I kinda sympathize with Suarez, he was getting kicked all game by the end he just fell easily to show his distate at the ref. Reminded me of the treatment a lot of people give Messi.

by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:36 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
The first change I want to see is Batista stepping down. This copa proved that he is tactically inept. I want him out and to find a libertadores/multiple primera titles winning coach to replace him. Sabella, perhaps. The sooner we switch, the better. Sadly, he keeps reminding us that he has a 4 year contract...

alfred, I don't disagree but whether it is Sabella or Bianchi, I don't really trust them. I mean Bielsa, Pekerman and Basile were pretty accomplished coaches, right? What they couldn't do though is face up to the modern European game. Hence there is hardly anything to make me believe these two will be able to do that. What Argentina really need is a big name coach from European club football. Since we will be against employing foreigners at the moment I can hardly see anyone worthy enough. I would have really liked to see our very own Pep Guardiola take charge of this team and bring the best out of Messi.

I as well, would be delighted to see Guardiola at the reigns, I can't really see him anywhere other than Barcelona, Spain or Argentina.

by kiranr Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:38 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
kiranr wrote:
He did try to dribble the entire team JD. But they just kept fouling him and blocking him off all the time and that is when he resorted to putting in balls into the box for the other players to do something.

Yes he tried but something was lacking in terms of speed, energy and even sheer mental will. At such times a player has to fight through fire and Messi couldn't quite do that. I mean if one Robben managed to cause so many problems to Dunga's full strength Brazil, why couldn't Messi against ten men Uruguay? This is something that really perplexes me. Also Iniesta in WC 2010 final. van Bommel and De Jong broke his legs umpteen times but he still got up every single time and drove the team forward again and again right till he finally scored that goal. Do you think Messi would have shown the same kind of resilience? To be very honest I am not sure but I doubt it.

He was involved in waves of attack for Argentina, even in the second half. When Tevez came on, Messi switched to the striker position and he was waiting for the ball rather than going deep to collect it. But still he managed to link up good passes in the second half.

Like Alfred said, on another day, Argentina would have won the match comfortably.

What i know is, Messi wants a championship cup with Argentina more than the fans and he will keep fighting!

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:39 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:Suarez was such a b*tch last night, it has to be said. Any time he was attacking he would dive and throw a tantrum, quite annoying.
Poor Maschete...
I'm thinking about making a thread in the general section about this, because there hasn't been really any mention of this disgraceful dive at all, and it got me thinking because Alves is lambasted to this day for 'faking an injury' vs Madrid and Pepe's sending off, yet you can see here Suarez rolling around for a good minute and taking out his own legs. Do people hate diving and injury feigning here? or do they just hate Barcelona?

Just my personal suggestion. Please don't do that. It goes nowhere and goes into a never ending game of accusations and counter-accusations.

See let's admit that there are players in all teams who cheat. Let's admit even more that there are countless wrong decisions in football and they do influence the outcome of matches and even tournaments.

However I don't want us to fall into the same trap that some Arsenal and Real Madrid fans fell into. Instead of blaming external matters it makes much more sense to me to find faults in our own team. As far as our Argentina team is concerned the faults are so many that I just don't even want to discuss what the referee or the opponent did wrong although i just mentioned it once for completeness sake.

by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:40 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:Suarez was such a b*tch last night, it has to be said. Any time he was attacking he would dive and throw a tantrum, quite annoying.
Poor Maschete...
I'm thinking about making a thread in the general section about this, because there hasn't been really any mention of this disgraceful dive at all, and it got me thinking because Alves is lambasted to this day for 'faking an injury' vs Madrid and Pepe's sending off, yet you can see here Suarez rolling around for a good minute and taking out his own legs. Do people hate diving and injury feigning here? or do they just hate Barcelona?

Just my personal suggestion. Please don't do that. It goes nowhere and goes into a never ending game of accusations and counter-accusations.

See let's admit that there are players in all teams who cheat. Let's admit even more that there are countless wrong decisions in football and they do influence the outcome of matches and even tournaments.

However I don't want us to fall into the same trap that some Arsenal and Real Madrid fans fell into. Instead of blaming extremal matters it makes much more sense to me to find faults in our own team. As far as our Argentina team is concerned the faults are so many that I just don't even want to discuss what the referee or the opponent did wrong although i just mentioned it once for completeness sake.

Good point, I just am a bit curious

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:43 pm

kiranr wrote:
He was involved in waves of attack for Argentina, even in the second half. When Tevez came on, Messi switched to the striker position and he was waiting for the ball rather than going deep to collect it. But still he managed to link up good passes in the second half.

Like Alfred said, on another day, Argentina would have won the match comfortably.

What i know is, Messi wants a championship cup with Argentina more than the fans and he will keep fighting!

You could be right and may have been able to watch the match better than me. I still feel though that a certain something was lacking in terms of physical energy and mental will. Also the efforts were a bit too predictable and one kind. Trying something different, at times just dribbling more or at times just going direct to goal could just have possibly yielded greater dividends.

by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:01 pm

Otamendi and Garay need their call ups, they're the future

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:11 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
The first change I want to see is Batista stepping down. This copa proved that he is tactically inept. I want him out and to find a libertadores/multiple primera titles winning coach to replace him. Sabella, perhaps. The sooner we switch, the better. Sadly, he keeps reminding us that he has a 4 year contract...

alfred, I don't disagree but whether it is Sabella or Bianchi, I don't really trust them. I mean Bielsa, Pekerman and Basile were pretty accomplished coaches, right? What they couldn't do though is face up to the modern European game. Hence there is hardly anything to make me believe these two will be able to do that. What Argentina really need is a big name coach from European club football. Since we will be against employing foreigners at the moment I can hardly see anyone worthy enough. I would have really liked to see our very own Pep Guardiola take charge of this team and bring the best out of Messi.

I would love to see Pep take over, but I think these are very unlikely. Even more unlikely is bringing a big European coach, even though I'd love Argentina to get Hiddink. I just want managers who have coached stars and have experience winning tournaments. Maradona and Batista have left a very sour taste in my mouth.

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:14 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
I would love to see Pep take over, but I think these are very unlikely. Even more unlikely is bringing a big European coach, even though I'd love Argentina to get Hiddink. I just want managers who have coached stars and have experience winning tournaments. Maradona and Batista have left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Agreed alfred. Hiddink is an excellent suggestion.

by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:15 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
The first change I want to see is Batista stepping down. This copa proved that he is tactically inept. I want him out and to find a libertadores/multiple primera titles winning coach to replace him. Sabella, perhaps. The sooner we switch, the better. Sadly, he keeps reminding us that he has a 4 year contract...

alfred, I don't disagree but whether it is Sabella or Bianchi, I don't really trust them. I mean Bielsa, Pekerman and Basile were pretty accomplished coaches, right? What they couldn't do though is face up to the modern European game. Hence there is hardly anything to make me believe these two will be able to do that. What Argentina really need is a big name coach from European club football. Since we will be against employing foreigners at the moment I can hardly see anyone worthy enough. I would have really liked to see our very own Pep Guardiola take charge of this team and bring the best out of Messi.
I would love to see Pep take over, but I think these are very unlikely. Even more unlikely is bringing a big European coach, even though I'd love Argentina to get Hiddink. I just want managers who have coached stars and have experience winning tournaments. Maradona and Batista have left a very sour taste in my mouth.

:/ seconded.

It would be really unfortunate to see a player of Messi's caliber not finish his career without an int'l. trophy because of bad coaching, knock on wood.

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:16 pm

P.S. - My fellow Argentina fans, let us not talk about winning the world cup any more. It's become as embarrassing as England talking about winning the world cup. Sad

I saw a thread recently in the general section where people ranked all the national teams from 1 to 10. I think after last night we can say Argentina is not in top five and we are borderline top ten at best for now.

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:20 pm

While not trying to defend Batista I will say something that I have noticed is common to both Batista and Maradona's tenure.

When they packed the midfield we became difficult to beat even for strong teams but struggled to beat even weak teams. In such formations they were accused of not giving Messi enough freedom.

When they gave more freedom to Messi we managed to beat the small teams quite easily but invariably found a way to lose to the better ones.

We did better in friendlies than we did in official matches.

Either way and all things considered WE FAILED. Our team has only fallen since Riquelme moved out of the scene and even he had never managed to make a world beating team. So you can just imagine our level since then and now for that matter. Sad

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:24 pm

alex brought up the point of all time greats and agreed that a few players can at present be considered better than Messi. Here is the list the way I see it. Of course such lists will always be open to continued debate.

1. Pele
2. Diego Maradona
3. Johann Cruyff
4. Alfredo di Stefano
5. Franz Beckenbauer
6. Zinedine Zidane
7. Garrincha
8. Ferenc Puskas
9. Ronaldo

At number 10 I am presently tying Lionel Messi with George Best, Michel Platini and Eusebio. There could be some others of course.

by matpol Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:22 pm

Batista didn't react when Uruguay went to 10 men. He should change tactics. Di Maria should play wider but instead he play in the centre midfield:o Batista should put Di Maria on flank and use him to stretch the defense. Tevez flopped after coming in, Aguero should stay on, I think that Cambiasso should come in for Gago, not Biglia, his veteran presence would be useful. Shame that Argentina is out, now I don't have a enthusiasm to continue watching this tournament.
Btw, how the hell Alevaro Rios didn't get yellow card. He constantly fouled Messi and company.

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:25 pm

I thought we actually played worse with Uruguay one man down... I'm not sure why.

by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:27 pm

I guess he's a well known diver in Holland

by kiranr Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:53 pm

Argentina should have played like how Brazil is playing today. Counterattacking football. They could have made a mincemeat of everyone in the competition considering the talent available!

Messi, Di Maria, Aguero and Higuain. Counterattacking football at its best!

by Ganso Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:56 pm

argentina cant play counter attacking football because they are always pressuring their opponents.

brazil doesnt do that,we just defend with our defenders so we can counter successfully ,while messi,aguero,di maria etc always track back

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