OFFTOPIC: Copa America 2011

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:16 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:
Interesting that you mention Aguero and Di Maria.Normally they are very creative players.But were they against Uruguay?
Not even one bit.I cant think of a single instance of creativity from either of them.All they did was hope for Messi to pull a miracle.Argentines,even Argentine players have a Maradona complex.They need a Messiah and they see Messi as one and expect him to do everything.They need to realize that its just not possible in the modern game against quality opposition.

Coming to Brazil the defining of that match was Roberto Carlos with is hands on his knees(woefully out of shape and out of breath) watching as he left Henry completelyy free to slot in the winner.
Team of stars but a bit like Argentina of today.No system and very unprofessional and very very very fat.
It was not at all a surprise that France beat them.
Uruguay are a better team than that Brazil.

Interesting thoughts alex. Yes they weren't good that day but I suppose you kind of agree that on individual quality they are not too far behind the French duo that you mentioned. So where was the difference? People would say the tactics but I would ask what tactics. Who taught that French team tactics? Don't tell me it was Raymond Domenech. Smile I mean I would take Argentina's poorest ever coach (maybe with the exception of Diego Maradona) over him. The Maradona complex is a very good point I admit. I had said before when Argentina were supposedly playing Messi in a false number 9 role that this is not a false number 9 role but a Maradona-esque one man show role. You know what else. France also suffered from the Zidane complex. I remember we used to joke with our colleagues that France have one rule of playing football which is that if you are not Zidane pass the ball to Zidane. Smile The bottom line is that Maradona, Ronaldo and Zidane to name just a few were the kind of players who uplifted an entire team. They gave them belief and confidence to perform at their very best. Their very presence brought about a difference in body language and attitude. Messi hasn't quite reached that level of impact yet.

You are right. The irony of that France vs. Brazil match is that while it is known for Zidane's artistry right through, the winning moment was actually a relatively mundane free kick coupled with shambolic defending. Still Zidane's mesmerizing performance of that night will forever be remembered. Brazil were made to dance for 90 minutes and I am sure I am not the only one who enjoyed that thoroughly. Your points about that Brazil team are not wrong. However it's also true that they were WC 2006 top favorites. Similarly Argentina were Copa America 2011 top favorites. On realistic analysis of these two teams one can indeed see a lot of flaws but when seen before the tournaments began they still looked more powerful than all the others. Lastly it's always much easier to accept excuses for minnows than it is for competition favorites.

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Post by alexjanosik Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:30 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:
Interesting that you mention Aguero and Di Maria.Normally they are very creative players.But were they against Uruguay?
Not even one bit.I cant think of a single instance of creativity from either of them.All they did was hope for Messi to pull a miracle.Argentines,even Argentine players have a Maradona complex.They need a Messiah and they see Messi as one and expect him to do everything.They need to realize that its just not possible in the modern game against quality opposition.

Coming to Brazil the defining of that match was Roberto Carlos with is hands on his knees(woefully out of shape and out of breath) watching as he left Henry completelyy free to slot in the winner.
Team of stars but a bit like Argentina of today.No system and very unprofessional and very very very fat.
It was not at all a surprise that France beat them.
Uruguay are a better team than that Brazil.

Interesting thoughts alex. Yes they weren't good that day but I suppose you kind of agree that on individual quality they are not too far behind the French duo that you mentioned. So where was the difference? People would say the tactics but I would ask what tactics. Who taught that French team tactics? Don't tell me it was Raymond Domenech. Smile I mean I would take Argentina's poorest ever coach (maybe with the exception of Diego Maradona) over him. The Maradona complex is a very good point I admit. I had said before when Argentina were supposedly playing Messi in a false number 9 role that this is not a false number 9 role but a Maradona-esque one man show role. You know what else. France also suffered from the Zidane complex. I remember we used to joke with our colleagues that France have one rule of playing football which is that if you are not Zidane pass the ball to Zidane. Smile The bottom line is that Maradona, Ronaldo and Zidane to name just a few were the kind of players who uplifted an entire team. They gave them belief and confidence to perform at their very best. Their very presence brought about a difference in body language and attitude. Messi hasn't quite reached that level of impact yet.

You are right. The irony of that France vs. Brazil match is that while it is known for Zidane's artistry right through, the winning moment was actually a relatively mundane free kick coupled with shambolic defending. Still Zidane's mesmerizing performance of that night will forever be remembered. Brazil were made to dance for 90 minutes and I am sure I am not the only one who enjoyed that thoroughly. Your points about that Brazil team are not wrong. However it's also true that they were WC 2006 top favorites. Similarly Argentina were Copa America 2011 top favorites. On realistic analysis of these two teams one can indeed see a lot of flaws but when seen before the tournaments began they still looked more powerful than all the others. Lastly it's always much easier to accept excuses for minnows than it is for competition favorites.

Zidane never uplifted an entire team.Nope dont agree one bit.WC 2006 France were a damn good team irrespective of the coach and I still think his Brazil performance is overrated.
Ronaldo too never uplifted his team.In 2002 Brazil were far and away the best in the business.
Maradona I agree uplifted his team but the circumstances were different and having keenly watched football of then and now I can safely say he wouldnt be able to do it in the modern game.

Just have to disagree on this.Seem to be going around in circles.

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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:36 am

@alexjanosik wrote:
Zidane never uplifted an entire team.Nope dont agree one bit.WC 2006 France were a damn good team irrespective of the coach and I still think his Brazil performance is overrated.
Ronaldo too never uplifted his team.In 2002 Brazil were far and away the best in the business.
Maradona I agree uplifted his team but the circumstances were different and having keenly watched football of then and now I can safely say he wouldnt be able to do it in the modern game.

Just have to disagree on this.Seem to be going around in circles.

Yes we will have to agree to disagree on this but I will just clarify a few things.

Uplifting a side doesn't necessarily mean taking a mediocre team to victory. What Maradona did is unmatchable. However players like Zidane and Ronaldo gave a belief and boost to their team that cannot be underestimated. Their very presence made the others perform better and believe much more that they could win. I have already spoken about Zidane. So about Ronaldo now. Brazil before WC 2002 were even struggling to qualify. They had all the players except Ronaldo. Now somehow they qualified and the expectations were low by their standards - fourth favorites by bookie odds. Then you know what happened. The first match people saw Ronaldo play and he looked fit and fine and in a few minutes Brazil were back on top for the bookies and everything started looking very positive. Ronaldo was a player who could uplift not just his team mates but also the fans of his country and even the bookies in a way that very few can do.

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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:41 am

One things for sure, a little off topic. This situation where brazil and argentina is the sponsors worst nightmare.
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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:46 am

I had a chat on Twitter with Goal.com's ( yes that same website that most at our forum members love to malign but I am not going to join that bandwagon ) Clark Whitney and Carlo Garganese about this matter. Especially with Clark I had a really long discussion.

Our conclusions were that talent wise Messi is right up there with the very best of all time. However what separates him from them at the moment is that he is not able to inspire and uplift his team the way others did. In one line Clark said that the game's heroes tend to get the best out of their team mates and find a variety of ways to win a match. Also another significant comment by Clark was that Messi isn't at fault for Argentina flopping but he is no Zizou either who made France look like a team at WC 2006 and almost won the tournament for them in spite of having Domenech for a coach. So what Messi needs is more leadership skills, even better ability on set pieces though he is constantly improving and perhaps a little more in terms of mental strength and resilience. At this point I would say Iniesta for one has a little more mental strength and resilience than Messi even though that comment may be widely disliked on our forum. Perhaps Robben as well to name just two for the time being. Clark also said even better off-ball movement but I am not so sure of this.

Also I would say leadership is not only about being vocal on the pitch or even very communicative. There are other ways to lead such as leading by example. Now here is where I fault Messi slightly. He did play reasonably well in the Copa and he worked hard but he played like a functional player doing his role. He did not play the tournament as if his life depended on it and it was up to him to win it for his country and end an 18 year trophy drought no matter what. If he had done that the performances of his team mates would have likely lifted. I mean a few dangerous runs into the Uruguay box where players are nearly fouling him creating chances of winning a penalty would have provided more encouragement to the likes of Aguero and Di Maria to give just one example. He could have shown zero fear of harsh tackles and been totally unplayable on the night especially given that Uruguay had no world class defenders and midfielders and were also a man short. He at times took a slightly safer approach rather than daring to walk right into the fire so to say. I mean I daresay if it was Pavel Nedved instead of Messi that night for instance and he had our hero's talent then I am 99% sure he would have won the match for Argentina and that too in normal time. I am left with the feeling that something was lacking - a little bit in terms of stamina and physical energy and a little bit in terms of sheer mental will to push against all odds. That's my kind of final conclusion and I completely understand and accept that many people will disagree.

I very much doubt Argentina's problems with their coaching and tactical setup will change in three years. It's up to Messi to rise above all that and inspire his team mates to achieve the impossible. Based on what I have seen so far it seems extremely unlikely that something like this could happen.



Last edited by messixaviesta on Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:59 am; edited 7 times in total

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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:49 am

Giggity5313 wrote:One things for sure, a little off topic. This situation where brazil and argentina are out is the sponsors worst nightmare.
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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:28 am

At the end of it all and taking hopefully every single factor into account I would say that Messi is not yet on Zidane's and Ronaldo's level. Between those two legends who you place higher is debatable but I will go with Zizou. Messi though is at or beyond Ronaldinho's level. The latter was never a leader and didn't really inspire or lift teams. He seemed to be playing football for his own enjoyment more than as commitment towards his team's cause. He could however indirectly uplift the morale of his team mates by doing something magical but he wasn't consistent with it. A comparison of qualities with Messi yields close results that are very debatable. However in terms of consistency and club level achievements
Messi has a clear edge. Where Ronaldinho still beats Messi though is that even a very young age he won a lot of international titles - Copa America, Confed Cup, World cup. Messi is yet to win any of them. Fine he played in better teams but still we can't ignore this completely.

Anyway all things considered here is how I would rank them at present. Please note that this ranking is not just about talent or ability but trying to consider every single thing that makes a truly great player.

1. Zinedine Zidane
2. Ronaldo
3. Lionel Messi
4. Ronaldinho

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Post by dostoevsky Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:30 am

Argentina failed to complete the simplest tasks well for the majority of the match and that's not something that 'inspiration' can fix in my opinion. Aguero's first touch was heavy all night, he couldn't turn and hang onto the ball to hold up play and his passing was lethargic. Without even mentioning his movement, the players meant to be the best supporting cast in the Copa America handicapped their side from the very beginning.

I can only read 'inspiration' in this case to mean that players such as Aguero and Di Maria were relieved of the responsibility to be the main supporting cogs of the attack. Had Pastore, a natural midfielder who instinctively knows where to go into space to anticipate the next pass and whose passing game brought a new dimension to the attack, been on for the entire match, then perhaps we might have seen the others around Messi being able to take simpler roles playing to their strengths which may have made them more confident, reducing the effect of some of their failings, however this does not make Pastore the integral 'inspiration' as it is merely highlighting the fact that you can not play possession football with one willing soul. One can't 'lift' those not on the same wavelength.

I wanted Aguero to receive more game time for years, and I still believe in him, however it's time for everyone to hop onto the Pastore for Argentina bandwagon to ensure that Argentina has the midfield to help their strikers. Cool

P.S. That sentence is waaaay too long, but I can't be bothered splitting it up.
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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:09 am

Well dost as dani once said hindsight is a very good thing. Yes people had asked for Pastore but not everyone was convinced. After the Costa Rica match most people were saying this is the right formation and lineup. alex has forever insisted that Messi be played as the AM although with somewhat different tactics. Those different tactics don't suit the traditional Argentina style and are very difficult to implement given the kind of opposition the coach would face. So if Pastore comes into the side Messi no longer plays as the sole play maker. There are pros and cons of both. However what I will insist on saying that most people agreed the Costa Rica formation and lineup was the way to go. Now that the system failed against a better team everyone blames the coach.

If I am brutally honest then to date not one person has suggested a formation, lineup and tactics that I think can really solve Argentina's problems but yes everyone has thought that they can do better than the current coach. Smile Among the ideas expressed there are significant differences and no one can be sure as such. Maybe what is needed is more experimentation.

As for your comments about the players not playing well that's true but have you thought why that happened. Yes they were tired after a long season but that will be the case in world cups as well. Will they continue to play this badly? Unfortunately I have a feeling that most of the best teams and players played this Copa in first or second gear being more concerned about protecting themselves from injuries so as to be ready for the season or in some cases get the lucrative transfer they want. In such a scenario one player trying to really go for it and showing it can be done might just have inspired others to follow suit but maybe that's just my thinking.

BTW 'inspiration' does not come from the position you play in. It's about being the most talented, the most committed, the most determined, the one who people know has made the difference in the past and thus expect will once again make the difference. Maradona for Argentina. Ronaldo for Brazil. Zidane for France. Three of the best examples. The presence of such players on the pitch lifts an entire team and makes them believe much more in themselves and what they can achieve. If you all don't understand and/or accept this then I guess I should stop saying the same thing repeatedly.

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Post by dostoevsky Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:36 am

Hindsight is all we have in this case, there's no next crucial game requiring instant results. Argentina need to take their time to consider the best coaches available and to consider their visions, because Batista's job must come under review at the very least.

Apathy may be a possible explanation, however this is also a matter for the coach in defining the culture of his squad and making them feel like a family, working for each other. We've read that Messi's team mates from Barcelona were ringing him up to support him after his Copa America exit. This sort of close-knit unity is necessary for a national squad to succeed. If the players are personally concerned for each other in the face of disappointment, then you can be sure they'll go to war for each other on the pitch, no matter what their concerns are for their clubs.
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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:22 am

@dostoevsky wrote:Hindsight is all we have in this case, there's no next crucial game requiring instant results. Argentina need to take their time to consider the best coaches available and to consider their visions, because Batista's job must come under review at the very least.

Apathy may be a possible explanation, however this is also a matter for the coach in defining the culture of his squad and making them feel like a family, working for each other. We've read that Messi's team mates from Barcelona were ringing him up to support him after his Copa America exit. This sort of close-knit unity is necessary for a national squad to succeed. If the players are personally concerned for each other in the face of disappointment, then you can be sure they'll go to war for each other on the pitch, no matter what their concerns are for their clubs.

Those comments are almost completely spot on. Perhaps the first step should be finding a new coach. Then it would be about giving him time and freedom to work. There are too many things to do. Finding the right formation, lineup, tactics, etc. is of course necessary. Also I feel like not even the most brilliant individual on earth can suggest the best for these aspects right now. It can only be discovered through sufficient sensible experimentation. Other that what you say is crucial. Creating the right atmosphere. Making players gel and bond with each other. At times the coach may not necessarily be able to provide these things but such roles can also be taken up by senior and respected players. One other problem with the present Argentina team is that is lacks leaders. Javier Zanetti was of course there but I guess it's time for him to declare international retirement now. Also not being called to the two previous world cups seems to have lessened his influence on the squad. Just imagine if there was prime Gennaro Gattuso in place of Javier Mascherano. That itself could have made a difference. If all this has to be achieved then proper work has to begin soon. At the moment the way things are it's a HUGE ask. I also agree that the Argentine public and media are not making things easier for Messi. If he had received positive sentiments from them maybe he would have been in a better state of mind and that could have made him more determined to try something more to win the match. As it stands he may have been apprehensive that if he tries something audacious and it doesn't work he will again be blamed immensely. Unfortunately it seems like Messi will never be Argentina's savior and will never really be accepted by them. Who should be blamed for that is open to conjecture but perhaps it's not one individual and the whole structure with everyone involved right from the players, coaches, fans, media, etc. are all responsible in some way.

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Post by Albiceleste Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:59 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:

BTW 'inspiration' does not come from the position you play in. It's about being the most talented, the most committed, the most determined, the one who people know has made the difference in the past and thus expect will once again make the difference. Maradona for Argentina. Ronaldo for Brazil. Zidane for France. Three of the best examples. The presence of such players on the pitch lifts an entire team and makes them believe much more in themselves and what they can achieve. If you all don't understand and/or accept this then I guess I should stop saying the same thing repeatedly.
I don't think you're giving Messi enough credit here, Messi is the linchpin holding together the entire team, without him the team would be in shambles.

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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:21 pm

Messi needs to be a leader, especially with zanetti retiring soon. He is the quiet kind of guy but unfortunately ALL the players look for him to do everything.
I think argentina will be the same story unless messi steps it up as a leader, its not like the players he were playing with were BAD.

But watch not just messi, most of the team lacked motivation.
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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:44 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
I don't think you're giving Messi enough credit here, Messi is the linchpin holding together the entire team, without him the team would be in shambles.

You may have a point but lesser players than Messi have done better in the past at this. See Riquelme will never be in an all time top hundred list while Messi is likely to be in an all time top ten list. Still the team built around Riquelme was so much better than the team built around Messi. Of course you can say the coach was better and the supporting cast was better as well but I can't totally ignore the role and responsibility of the lynchpin.

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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:45 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:Messi needs to be a leader, especially with zanetti retiring soon. He is the quiet kind of guy but unfortunately ALL the players look for him to do everything.
I think argentina will be the same story unless messi steps it up as a leader, its not like the players he were playing with were BAD.

But watch not just messi, most of the team lacked motivation.

Yes what you say makes good sense. One question I would ask is about the last point. Why do you think this team lacked motivation?


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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:04 pm

JD you're being way too harsh on Messi. I don't see what else Messi could have done against Uruguay. Expecting him to take the team on single handedly is not reasonable.
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Post by harhar11 Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:26 pm

It seems that the only way for people to say that messi isn't a flop with the NT is if he cross and scores at the same time...

And imo you can't compare zidane's, ronaldo's performance with their NT with messi's. Both france and brazil at the time were the best NT out there, with or without those to. France didn't even need zidane to beat croatia in the semi-final of the 98 WC, that's how complete team france was back there while argentina without messi, would NEVER get the ball further up than the middle of the pitch..

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Post by free_cat Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:35 pm

JD is upset because Argentina lost and is clearly overacting. Putting the great lie of Zidane over Messi is a clear sign of overeaction. Very Happy
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Post by The Franchise Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:48 pm

I dont buy and never will buy the "lacked motivation" or "didnt try hard enough" arguments.

To me, thats a load of rubbish with no substance behind it.

I dont believe they didnt care or they wasnt trying, they obviously was trying, but sometimes you dont play well, sometimes things dont go your way, sometimes you just lose because opponent played better today.

There isnt always a reason or an excuse.

I have also never liked the way one player gets blamed for a team's exit. Its never one players fault, never.

As for Messi, I dont buy this stuff about he has to be more of a leader or more of a talisman or whatever else. Well, to a degree anyway.

I dont buy into it, like when people say, Zidane did it for France so Messi has to do it for Argentina.

You cant compare different situations like that. Say of Ronaldo didnt have a fit before the game and Brazil trashed France like they was prior to that game? Would we of said, well Zidane didnt show leadership and "talismanic" ability?

Sure, Messi and Argentina didnt go out to Brazil with Ronaldo like Zidane's team would have, the the overall point still doesnt change.

To add to what I was saying above, there isnt always a reason and there isnt always one key thing that was a problem, coach, players or whatever.

If there was just one thing I would change, it would probably be the style. I think historically (I think this through reading) that Argentina have never played a style with the emphasis being on total possession, build up and interchanging passes in the midfield.

I think its been more vertical football with individualism and improvisation in the final 1/3 but a solid yet simple foundation behind it in midfield and defence.

I have seen Argentina play too many different style in just my years of football, I have seen possession, I have seen counter attacking, I have seen solo-dribbling with little to no team work and other games in which you cant even recognize the style.

I just think, Argentina have alot of great individual dribblers in the final 1/3 who are excellent in the 1 v 1. Playing a fast, vertical game where the ball gets forward quickly (though still along the floor) and the 1 v 1 dribblers can go to work with space around them is the best way to go. They tried the "Barca way" and they still looked fairly direct.




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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:27 pm

@The Franchise wrote:I think historically (I think this through reading) that Argentina have never played a style with the emphasis being on total possession, build up and interchanging passes in the midfield.
Hmm how would that style differ significantly from what Pekerman and Bielsa did? I'm asking because I didn't follow football anywhere near as close at the time, but those two seemed to have the same core beliefs.
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Post by larisano Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:19 am

If Batista does stay but is willing to change and accept his mistakes, then I still have hope he will make this team click.Put in an AMF and a top class defense, just wonder how long Zanetti has left, we do lack an experienced and organiser-type defensive leader that EVERY champion team needs, and it will show even more if Il Trattore decides to hang up his boots. Maradona also said he faced loads of criticism and doubts before WC86' but after he won it, those same brutes showered him with praise...
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Post by FennecFox7 Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:12 am

@harhar11 wrote:.
Both france and brazil at the time were the best NT out there
I disagree, all due respect, in 2002 (france) if they were the "best NT out there", then why did they struggle without zidane in that WC? Just an observation.
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Post by messixaviesta Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:43 am

Well guys ( alfred, harhar, cat, dani, etc. ), we will agree to disagree on this.

I repeat I am not blaming Messi for the exit. There are many others to blame more than him. It's just that when compared with the greats of the game I do feel Messi lacks a little bit on leadership, resilience, set piece ability and perhaps even creativity. Of course no one can say for sure but hypothetically speaking I can think of a few names who could have done a little better in this situation.

The reference to France 1998 is important. It wasn't a great team actually. The final against Brazil with Ronaldo's illness will always remain a question mark as dani mentioned. Now people say what would talisman Zidane have done if Ronaldo was fully match fit. What I say instead is that Zidane wasn't quite that kind of talisman then. It's after the final that he became that. After that the French really looked up to him to save them every single time and looked totally lost without him. It's moments that can sometimes make a true legend and maybe Messi needs one such lucky moment.

As for dani's point about Argentina's style I think more Argentina teams have played possession and it's only their weaker teams that played counter-attacking that was never liked. Pekerman's team as alfred mentioned played beautifully. However dani does make a good point that more vertical play and individual improvisation used to be key. What I ask is why couldn't that be done in this setup. Who or what prevented Di Maria and Aguero to run and dribble on the wings is something I don't understand.

Also dani I don't understand why we cannot call a team less or more motivated. In international football especially I have seen more determined teams sometimes triumphing over those more talented than them. For instance I would never call the WC 2006 team of Brazil motivated. As far as Argentina is concerned I have been following them since 1990 and the one common characteristic of their teams has been the pride, passion and determination shown by the players the minute they put on the Albiceleste shirt. The current team seemed kind of alien to me - easily the least passionate Argentina team I have ever seen. It was a case of becoming a little bit like England - players too involved with their own priorities to bother much about the national team.

Yes I understand that the blame should be a collective responsibility. However Messi is also part of the collective and thus he also has his share of blame. The problem that I sometimes see at our forum is that even one word said against Messi or Xavi is concerned sacrilege. Yes we are almost all die hard fans of both of them but does that mean we relinquish the right to ever point out any shortcoming of theirs.

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Post by free_cat Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:35 am

The curious thing is that some people says that this Argentina failed because they tried to copy Barça.

In my opinion, if they copied Barça they did it terrible. In the games I watched (vs. Uruguay and parts of others) their positional play was awfull, they never played compact, they played way too fast and with a too deep defence, no one providing width and with the fullbacks not pushing up (making forward runs but in a different way than Barça's).

I read Alex views that they should adopt a counterattacking style. And I think that could work. But I also think that playing as Barça but doing it ok tactically, it could work for them. Yes, they lack the midfielders, but against Uruguay, their midfielders were not press and didn't lose the ball, yet all the team was crappy positioned and not trying to play the Barça way at all.
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Post by harhar11 Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:23 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:
@harhar11 wrote:.
Both france and brazil at the time were the best NT out there
I disagree, all due respect, in 2002 (france) if they were the "best NT out there", then why did they struggle without zidane in that WC? Just an observation.

I was talking about when they won the WC, proven by the fact that france won a WC semifinal without zidane..

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:37 pm

@free_cat wrote:The curious thing is that some people says that this Argentina failed because they tried to copy Barça.

In my opinion, if they copied Barça they did it terrible. In the games I watched (vs. Uruguay and parts of others) their positional play was awfull, they never played compact, they played way too fast and with a too deep defence, no one providing width and with the fullbacks not pushing up (making forward runs but in a different way than Barça's).

I read Alex views that they should adopt a counterattacking style. And I think that could work. But I also think that playing as Barça but doing it ok tactically, it could work for them. Yes, they lack the midfielders, but against Uruguay, their midfielders were not press and didn't lose the ball, yet all the team was crappy positioned and not trying to play the Barça way at all.
Agreed completely. The only game that we looked like Barca was against a U23 Costa Rica. In all other games we definitely did not look like them. We were far too vertical to build any play, which consequently meant that we relied on individual talent rather than team work, our forward's off the ball movement was subpar except for Higuain's, and we never tried to mantain possession - or did it very well. We pressed well sometimes, but in some games we also didn't do that well. All in all if it was a copy of Barca, it was completely butchered.
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