OFFTOPIC: Copa America 2011

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Post by Ganso Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:56 pm

argentina cant play counter attacking football because they are always pressuring their opponents.

brazil doesnt do that,we just defend with our defenders so we can counter successfully ,while messi,aguero,di maria etc always track back

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:57 pm

Well Brazil going out does lessen my disappointment to an extent. If we are still not better than them then at least they are no longer better than us.

BTW I just got to know that Copa America is being shown live on 'Neo Sports' in India. If someone had informed me I could have watched Argentina's last night match so much better. Then again would it anyway be worth it?

All three of the quarter finals so far have been upsets. If Chile also go out tonight then I have to say it could be an all time record with all four quarter finals resulting in the lesser team on paper winning.

Also I forgot to say something regarding alex's suggestion of Argentina playing on the counter attack. Such a suggestion will be met with a lot of opposition. Take the case of Dunga for example. He made Brazil into such a powerful team. However he was never liked because quite a few felt that he had sacrificed style even though I for one believe the difference was not as much as it was made out to be. He won literally everything in his path till WC 2010 and the first time something went wrong for him and the team were bundled out, there were just too many people out with knives for him who had no interest in even considering his success and achievement of the past few years. Now similarly if an Argentine coach tries to develop a counter attacking team he will be said to have betrayed the traditional style and too many powerful figures will speak out against him. All it will take is one false step from this individual for too many people to push him over the cliff.

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:02 pm

matpol wrote:Di Maria should play wider but instead he play in the centre midfield:o Batista should put Di Maria on flank and use him to stretch the defense.

I don't think it was just tactics. If Di Maria and Aguero had tried dribbling on the flanks why would anyone have stopped them? What perplexes me is that they hardly tried anything like that.

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:03 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I thought we actually played worse with Uruguay one man down... I'm not sure why.

Agreed completely alfred and it is just so perplexing.

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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:05 pm

I'm so glad Brazil are out now too, misery loves company.

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Post by Ganso Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:09 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:I'm so glad Brazil are out now too, misery loves company.
lets do some voodoo and drag chile to our hole.....
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:25 pm

Ganso wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:I'm so glad Brazil are out now too, misery loves company.
lets do some voodoo and drag chile to our hole.....
We need GuiltyBystander to predict a Venezuela win, he's the new paul the octopus, he predicted everything in the knockouts correct so far. :study:

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:15 am

Didn't Spanky also predict everything right upto now too? His prediction could be just as useful.
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Post by Khaled Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:20 am

Sanchez & Chile are also Out:P

Hope to hear the official news soon!!

Sanchez sign for Barca!! 5alsuna ba2a!!

The gd news: Messi,Alves, Masch,Adriano & maybe G.Milito & Sanchez will have more rest Smile

btw i heard that Messi will be back on 3 August, join Barca in Miami (US Tour)!
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:45 am

Lol, like JD proposed all 4 favorites lost. Interesting cup.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:51 am

So Brazil and Argentina going out so early is actually good for Barca, one more week of rest for Messi, Masch, Milito and Alves.
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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:44 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Lol, like JD proposed all 4 favorites lost. Interesting cup.

Indeed alfred and I don't think this has ever occurred right since I started watching football that all four of the quarter finals in a competition end in upsets.

So now it should be an Uruguay vs. Paraguay final. Oh wait. Going by how this tournament has been it could very well be a Peru vs. Venezuela final.



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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:59 am

I have a thought that I want to share with you all but not quite sure how exactly to put it.

I feel that a lot of players have become very selfish. They mainly care about their careers with the clubs who pay their fat salaries. When they play for their country it's not like they don't play well or don't work hard but they don't go all out. They don't want to put their bodies on the line. They fear over-exerting themselves or worse still conceding an injury that could disrupt their season.

Now consider the case of the smaller teams. They are mainly made up of players from nondescript clubs and those players are often of the kind most of us haven't heard of. They are desperate to make a name for themselves and their nations. Hence due to their putting greater heart and soul they are able to bridge the gap in talent that exists between them and the bigger teams.

This is specially true in the Copa. Players play the Euro more seriously. As for the world cup, that becomes a different matter. Here most players are indeed ready to put their body on the line since they see it as a very rare opportunity. In the Copa on the other hand some players don't even look sad enough to have exited. It's like what's happened has happened and it's time to bother with the rest of the holidays, the pre-season and above all in most cases the lucrative transfer that they dreamt of.

This is one theory of mine to explain the consecutive upsets that have happened. Of course the old adage remains that anything can happen in football.

Also some time back we had discussed reasons as to why international football is inferior to club football. I suppose we can add this reason also to the list we made earlier.


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Post by dostoevsky Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:05 am

alexjanosik wrote:And at the risk of sounding arrogant I have once again been proven right.
Argetina just dont have the personnel to play the possession game or atleast one that gets the best out of Messi.
He is the only creative player in the side and the opposition knows that.
When Argentina play possession Messi is the only one creating chances.
How many chances were created by players other than Messi throughout the tournament?
Not much I suppose.
So teams swarm Messi.They have 3 players on him as soon as he gets the ball.
I dont care what the haters say.No player in history would be able to deal with that in the modern game.
Not Pele,not Maradona,not even Cruyff.

So what then do you do?
You counterattack.Play a well organzied,defensive game and counterattack with lightning pace and deadly efficiency.Make Messi play the number 10 in a 4-2-3-1 with Aguero,Di Maria and Higuain as the other forwards and work on a counter attacking game.Play like Geramny at WC 10.
Messi gets a little bit more space and breathing room and he becomes the player all Cules know he is.
I had said this a year and a half ago before the WC.Alas no manager has tried it.

I agree with your statements regarding Argentina's possession football, though I personally do believe they can find a solution. For the majority of the match no one worked hard enough to provide options for Messi, leading to the over-complification of individual roles rather than creating chaos through their use of a system. When you field Messi, Higuain, Aguero and Di Maria they need to make it impossible for individuals to track them through constant movement and the exchange of roles to relieve pressure from individuals and effectively make the forward line greater than the sum of its parts. Aguero last night was the biggest culprit in my eyes; he showed an inability to hold onto possession, was often making runs where he was effectively inaccessible on the flank, whilst his distribution across the pitch was shocking for a player of his quality. Di Maria offered some decent passages of play at the start of the second half, though he was otherwise quiet, whilst Higuain did his best to keep things simple and try and play a simple role and whilst not a great performance I think it would be unfair to criticise him for not achieving things which he has never done and obviously wasn't instructed to focus on. He tried to play his natural game and was heavily restricted for chances.

In the end though, possession football only works when absolutely everyone wants the ball and no one showed a willingness to support Messi as they should have done and that to my mind is the fault of the coach, especially when it's not even possible to notice that the opposition is down to ten men. That's how poorly Argentina used space. This all changed to a degree when Pastore was finally brought on, a true midfielder who was always willing to offer himself to collect the ball, find space and whose passing was the cleanest and most able to bring structure to the Argentine build-up in the game. When Pastore came on, Argentina finally started to bring play to the top of the box through teamwork, rather than working the flanks for no apparent reason before releasing Messi to attempt to take on the entire team by himself. My recording cut out midway through extra-time, so I can't be sure that Pastore continued to have such an effect, however I believe that if given time then Argentina can still maintain an offensive, possession based style, however much of this relies on the coach. Nothing will be achieved under Batista at this rate. If he is unwilling to make the necessary changes to the line-up based on form and willingness to work for the greater good, based on Messi and Pastore, then I would support your system for a counter-attacking line-up which would also address the speed with which Argentina built their attacks, allowing Uruguay too much time to regroup, even when space was suddenly opened up due to hesitancy to play the right ball.

Also I must also give credit to Uruguay for an organised performance and their efficiency in attack. Though they had limited opportunities they managed to create meaningful opportunities even when down to ten men and though I believe that they should have been down to at least 9 men - whilst Mascherano shouldn't have been sent off - they did what they needed to do and weren't intimidated by the occasion.
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:34 am

Boys, boys.... While there are some superb posts here by equally great posters, I am rather surprised by some of the opinions on Messi here as such is life when the media can influence the mind in a matter of seconds.

I'll make it short as day by day I have struggled to find time to make the posts I used to so here it is.

Why does Messi not produce his Barca form for the Argies? Here a things that contribute to that

1. The wear and tear, the arduous journey, the uphill battle of competing in a season of La Liga ,Copa Del Rey, and our beloved Champions League is quite a task in terms of what it asks from you body and mind as Messi has played most of the games out of Barca (correct me if I am wrong). His role requires him to be the hardest worker and constant thorn in the oppositions side as even perfect recovery in terms of sleep and diet is only just enough to maintain this status. And yet messi had the task of Copa America which will ask even more of him due to Argentina and Batista's incompetence. I am not saying he was fatigued or burnt out. Yet, do you not think after 55 games in the combined season that he would at least need a vacation for his talented boots? All artists need their time to rethink and redevelop as Xavi, Pirlo, Laudrup, Deco, Redondo all went through the same thing of playing all to many games in which much is asked from them as the rest periods given to them brought wonders to their game. This rather poor argentine team with some of its overrated players seemed to think: " Hey, lets just pass it to messi and let him do his magic even if he is being marked by 5 players while we just sit back and wait to poach". Give me a break Batista

2. We want to play like Barca? Who is this guy kidding himself as he does not possess the players to replicate the one touch tiki taka and heavy pressing system of Barca. Argentina took away their own identity and capacity to actually think about what is truly suitable for the players given as the team is simply not equipped with the players to perform to Pep's style of play. What this resulted in is a wayward, awkward, imbalanced, disjointed and all round confusing architecture of the system "created" by the Manager. Who is in the midfield to create? As much as people think, Banega is NOT a playmaker despite his qualites. Who else was deployed to create? Masch, Gago, Cambiasso, and a much to high-attacking Pastore. Where is the engine in the midfield? Messi has one hell of a task in dropping deep and pressing forward to score. Argentina do not even possess and fullbacks who can attack in order to link-up with Messi, as hell, link-up play was non existent within the team as aside from Aguero, every other forward was poor (even Higuin) with the wasteful idiots like Lavezzi and Tevez and Di Maria who seem to think football is a individual game. Where was the game plan? How bout at least counter attack to suit Messi since the others insist on looking pretty. Where does this leave Messi? I bet he truly missed his Barca not because he plays better with them, but because they know how to actually play football and not because of skill, but by simply have a footballing brain.

3. Media. Oh the media. The media pressure on his young, innocent and delicate mind was like the 3 dimensional force of pressure in the mariana trench. JD, Alex, Dosto, Khaled, Alfredandrew, you know exactly what I am talking about in this aspect as when you have a pack of rabid dogs in the form of the football media and players who keep one eye on you to win for them, you need the mentality of invincibility to survive that as we know, humans are not capable of handling such pressure unless you Masutatsu Oyama or Bruce Lee. Messi is simply as small town boy who is young and has the talent the size of neptune. It disgusts me how narrow minded and malicious our world can be.

4. After this fiasco, I bet all the madrid fans, or messi haters in general are saying Pele, Di stefano , Zidane and Meazza are all better then messi. Whereas I still think Maradona and Cruyff are were just a tad bit better then Messi (for now), the rest are all bested by him as all the Pele's and Di stefanos and Meazza's and other legends from half a centurty played during a time where the defence had the intelligence and movement of old people having intercourse along with the rest of the tactics in mid and attack being as advanced as Homo erectus. Most of the players had the fitness of a Bloated guava and played in a time where football just simply is no where near as fast, technical and advanced as it is now. I know most of you kids have seen these old timers, but don't kid yourselves, as Messi blows all of them out of the water.

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:07 pm

dost and arqui, I appreciate your wonderful posts and there is not much to disagree. However I would like to make a couple of points.

1. What if we have another very poor tactical system and Argentina flops at WC 2014 as has become the norm for us? Would you once again say Messi has no share in the blame for such a debacle? Also how do you think his status as the best player of our times and one of the best of all time be affected then?

2. I don't quite agree with the views by which people try to underplay the likes of Pele and Di Stefano. Yes you can say perhaps that if you transport them using a time machine they wouldn't be able to match up to Messi today. However I firmly believe that each era has to be judged independently. If the players around these players were limited making their job easier then they were also constrained by a lack of a lot of advancements that sports has made since then making their job difficult. Hence I don't like putting down what the legends of the past did. It's like saying once Einstein proposed the theory of relativity, we should no longer give Newton any credit for the Physics that he developed. If Pele could in those days do the kind of things he did then we can't even imagine that had he been born in today's times what an ultimate phenomenon he would have been.


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Post by free_cat Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:56 pm

The fact that Messi can't win an international trophy with Argentina doesn't undervalue at all how good he is as a player.

Argentina is just not a good enough squad and lacks good managers. They should consider hiring a european manager. Currently Europe is the center of world football, and if once south america could compete equally, they can't now.

Even with a good manager, they would probably lack short. Football is a team sport. You can't ask a single player to win the games if your teammates can't pass a ball 10 feet away, they all shoot on sight and can't defend set pieces. Then, if your coach places Di Maria as a AM (?) and playing against 10 men no one in Argentina is out wide stretching the field, even more difficult.

As I haven't watched Pele or Cruyff or much of Maradona, I can't say if Messi is better than them. But let's all be serious, even if Messi retired now, he is well above any of the other present legends like Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Zidane, Figo, Ronaldinho,etc.

Oh, and lastly, international football is overated cause of nationalism. But really, the football played is mediocre and the winners of the tournaments are mostly decided by luck between the favourites. Argentina can only win a World Cup if they strike lucky.






Last edited by free_cat on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:57 pm

One quick question.

Who was the last Argentina national team coach who is not considered poor?


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Post by free_cat Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:14 pm

messixaviesta wrote:One quick question.

Who was the last Argentina national team coach who is not considered poor?


I think Argentina's Pekerman in 2006 was a good setup team (not great, but good), but his not inclusion of Messi in many games, especially in the game against Germany, was laughable. Bringing Julio Cruz in when the game was completely broken, with lots of space to exploit in the counter!

But seriously, what the hell was doing Di Maria playing as AM vs. Uruguay?
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Post by ChollaVille Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:24 pm

As I said before..... RIJKAARD!!!
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Post by dostoevsky Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:45 pm

@JD - For the future, if the failure is down to poor coaching and the team then I think it won't drag down Messi significantly, though if Argentina finally play well as a team yet still can not clinch a title then it will be a mark against him. At the moment I simply count him as unfortunate to have been let down by his coaches and team mates. Players such as Puskas and Di Stefano are considered to be some of the finest of all time, indeed as the finest by some, however neither won a World Cup, and it would be senseless to consider Puskas as significantly better if West Germany hadn't manufactured a victory out of nowhere in the World Cup final.

Also I agree with Free, Pekerman was a decent coach, however Messi should have been used against Germany in 2006, when half the opposition could barely stand after a hard game, he would have been perfect.
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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:48 pm

free_cat wrote:
I think Argentina's Pekerman in 2006 was a good setup team (not great, but good), but his not inclusion of Messi in many games, especially in the game against Germany, was laughable. Bringing Julio Cruz in when the game was completely broken, with lots of space to exploit in the counter!

Still that same Pekerman is remembered for the harakiri he committed. You have mentioned one. The one people most talk of is taking off Riquelme. Another one to add would be not taking J.Zanetti even in the squad. So in the end all he got was criticism and blame. If he had been the coach today we would probably again be saying team let down by poor coach.

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:03 pm

dostoevsky wrote:Players such as Puskas and Di Stefano are considered to be some of the finest of all time, indeed as the finest by some, however neither won a World Cup, and it would be senseless to consider Puskas as significantly better if West Germany hadn't manufactured a victory out of nowhere in the World Cup final.

All your points make good sense but I would like to comment on this one.

Di Stefano didn't win a world cup but he didn't play in one either. At times he was injured and at times at loggerheads with his coach. Smile I don't know of any instance when he could have been said to have failed to achieve something with his national side.

About Puskas, from a logical point of view you are right, but the truth is that the career of great players is ultimately defined not by their talent but by their magical moments. It is those memories that transcend their persons and make them the super humans they then become. One thought that often comes to my mind is that if Cruyff had won the WC 1974 final instead of losing it his name might have been on the same pedestal as Pele and Maradona. At the moment it's almost invariably taken just after them. As for Puskas, not quite as high as Cruyff but I do think he would have been a more famous and fondly recalled name if he had won WC 1954. This is not about conclusively proving who the better player is since that can never really be proved and remains open to subjectivity and debate. What it instead demonstrates is the effect of the world cup on the psyche of the common man. You know when we were kids and were asked to name two footballers we would say Maradona and then keep wondering who the other one could be. Smile

Coming back to the point of not winning a world cup and still being considered an all time top ten player. In such cases it must be that either you never got to play in the tournament itself for whatever reason or you played for so weak a team that success was impossible. George Best could not get Northern Ireland to qualify for the tournament. I have often wondered whether it should be counted against him or not. Finally I decided to drop him down my list and tie him along with Messi and some others. The other possibilities are not winning it but coming very close. We take the names of Cruyff and Pusaks very often in this category. Finally there are those who didn't reach beyond the semi finals. Say Platini for instance but he did it twice. Also in-between he won Euro 1984 as the tournament's most extraordinary player. Still he is only borderline top ten. Then consider Eusebio. He played for Portugal who were then considered minnows but took them to the semi final and also was tournament top scorer. He too is borderline top ten. Now I must mention that merely winning the world cup or coming close doesn't put you in such lists. Your talent and your club achievements count equally. However the way I understand it it's a combination of all three. If you are an international under-performer then I find it difficult to place you in my all time top ten. Of course I will take into consideration what kind of team you play for and set the level of expectations accordingly but if you play for two time winners and perennial title favorites Argentina I am not inclined to be that generous with you. Sad

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:25 pm

Here is a fantastic article explaining how the problem is not the coach, it's structural (that being: the coach clearly made a lot of mistakes but he should have never been the coach in the first place). Time permitting, I'll translate it later but I'll post it now for the Spanish speakers.

http://www.canchallena.com/1390512-en-julio-todas-las-frustraciones
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Post by alexjanosik Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:28 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:jd
You keep mentioning Ronaldinho and Zidane.
Ronnie had other creative players in the side,the likes of Deco,Xavi,Messi himself in the side.He never had the sole burden of creativity in a tactically inept side like Messi did.Had he been in Messi's shoes Argetina would have crashed just as badly and Ronnie would have struggled more.

Coming to Rivaldo that was an excellent Brazil side.Ronnie,Rivaldo and Ronaldo.
Again Rivaldo didnt have the sole burden of creativity.Rivaldo is one of my favorites of all time but he would have struggled even worse tha Messi in yesterdays setup.

Now to Zidane.What Zidane does with a football Messi does with an orange.
Also Zidane's France had a very good defense and were well organized.
Plus and this is often forgotten.Ribery was brilliant throughout the torunament and provided a lot of creativity.Infact he was just as good as Zidane.Malouda too had a good world cup.
So I struggle to see how Zidane rose above the team.
Lastly his performance against Brazil is way overrayed.That was an overweight, unprofessional Brazil.
Messi would have had a field day against them in the same situation.

Well alex we have to agree to disagree to some extent.

About Rivaldo perhaps yes. He may not have been able to do too much more.

About Ronaldinho it's really hard. He was just wildly unpredictable. It's possible that he could have had a game much worse than Messi did but it's also possible that he would have done something and found some way in a manner than neither you nor I can think of.

About Zidane. You said they had Ribery and Malouda which is fair but I say we also had Aguero and Di Maria. How much better are those two compared to our two? Also you say that it was an unfit Brazil but it was still eleven men and most of them were world class players. What we faced last night was ten men and most of them were not even close to being world class.

Interesting that you mention Aguero and Di Maria.Normally they are very creative players.But were they against Uruguay?
Not even one bit.I cant think of a single instance of creativity from either of them.All they did was hope for Messi to pull a miracle.Argentines,even Argentine players have a Maradona complex.They need a Messiah and they see Messi as one and expect him to do everything.They need to realize that its just not possible in the modern game against quality opposition.

Coming to Brazil the defining of that match was Roberto Carlos with is hands on his knees(woefully out of shape and out of breath) watching as he left Henry completelyy free to slot in the winner.
Team of stars but a bit like Argentina of today.No system and very unprofessional and very very very fat.
It was not at all a surprise that France beat them.
Uruguay are a better team than that Brazil.

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:16 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
Interesting that you mention Aguero and Di Maria.Normally they are very creative players.But were they against Uruguay?
Not even one bit.I cant think of a single instance of creativity from either of them.All they did was hope for Messi to pull a miracle.Argentines,even Argentine players have a Maradona complex.They need a Messiah and they see Messi as one and expect him to do everything.They need to realize that its just not possible in the modern game against quality opposition.

Coming to Brazil the defining of that match was Roberto Carlos with is hands on his knees(woefully out of shape and out of breath) watching as he left Henry completelyy free to slot in the winner.
Team of stars but a bit like Argentina of today.No system and very unprofessional and very very very fat.
It was not at all a surprise that France beat them.
Uruguay are a better team than that Brazil.

Interesting thoughts alex. Yes they weren't good that day but I suppose you kind of agree that on individual quality they are not too far behind the French duo that you mentioned. So where was the difference? People would say the tactics but I would ask what tactics. Who taught that French team tactics? Don't tell me it was Raymond Domenech. Smile I mean I would take Argentina's poorest ever coach (maybe with the exception of Diego Maradona) over him. The Maradona complex is a very good point I admit. I had said before when Argentina were supposedly playing Messi in a false number 9 role that this is not a false number 9 role but a Maradona-esque one man show role. You know what else. France also suffered from the Zidane complex. I remember we used to joke with our colleagues that France have one rule of playing football which is that if you are not Zidane pass the ball to Zidane. Smile The bottom line is that Maradona, Ronaldo and Zidane to name just a few were the kind of players who uplifted an entire team. They gave them belief and confidence to perform at their very best. Their very presence brought about a difference in body language and attitude. Messi hasn't quite reached that level of impact yet.

You are right. The irony of that France vs. Brazil match is that while it is known for Zidane's artistry right through, the winning moment was actually a relatively mundane free kick coupled with shambolic defending. Still Zidane's mesmerizing performance of that night will forever be remembered. Brazil were made to dance for 90 minutes and I am sure I am not the only one who enjoyed that thoroughly. Your points about that Brazil team are not wrong. However it's also true that they were WC 2006 top favorites. Similarly Argentina were Copa America 2011 top favorites. On realistic analysis of these two teams one can indeed see a lot of flaws but when seen before the tournaments began they still looked more powerful than all the others. Lastly it's always much easier to accept excuses for minnows than it is for competition favorites.

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