How highly do you rate Sergio Ramos?

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Post by Onyx Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:50 pm

How was it Coentrao's fault?

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Post by Zealous Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:54 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:How was it Coentrao's fault?
Lahm completely destroyed him, it was playground defending in the last minute and it really cost us. Had Coentrao not eaten that feint like a sucker there was a great chance that we'd have been in the final.
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Post by danyjr Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:08 pm

Zealous wrote:Part of me feels he'll actually hit his footballing prime once he's past his physical prime.
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Post by Mamad Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:22 pm

He is overrated. not good enough for Madrid at the moment but the thing is he can be very good.

for Spain NT he is a monster some times but for Madrid...meh and full of mistakes.

i think the problem is his head.
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Post by Red Alert Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:47 am

How times have changed, eh.

There's not too many great CBs in the world right now, meaning Ramos / Pepe are automatically "one of the best CBs" respectively in the world in 2013.

Go back 10-15 years ago, and I doubt either of those 2 would play for a "top" club.
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Post by free_cat Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:56 am

How is it that no one is saying the Galatasaray guy dived? Surely, if everyone didn't hate Ramos, everyone would be laughing at the Galatasary guy for diving...

That hipocrisy.
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Post by Zealous Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:16 am

Red Alert wrote:How times have changed, eh.

There's not too many great CBs in the world right now, meaning Ramos / Pepe are automatically "one of the best CBs" respectively in the world in 2013.

Go back 10-15 years ago, and I doubt either of those 2 would play for a "top" club.
You got it the other way round, Pepe and Ramos would have been gods in the 80's/90's. If anything current "top" CBs like Hummels would be considered garbage 10-15 years ago because of their soft style of defending.

Football's current refs and rules means a defender has to be a decision making football genius to be successful and any extra aggression is immediately considered a crime against football or whatever. Being a defender now a days isn't easy. Not to mention the already out of control "If he's not great then he is sh*t" mentality makes any opinion people have about defenders that much more skewed.

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Post by Zealous Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:18 am

free_cat wrote:How is it that no one is saying the Galatasaray guy dived? Surely, if everyone didn't hate Ramos, everyone would be laughing at the Galatasary guy for diving...

That hipocrisy.
It was a blatant dive for sure. This thread was bumped for the lulz more than anything.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:24 am

Tackling technique has gone down the toilet mostly imo... That's the biggest issue with Pepe and Ramos: Neither is a good tackler. That's why they would both fail miserably in the 80s at least. You would never make it if you didn't have extremely good technique on your tackles. It was a must in my day.

Also, tactical awareness was very important too.

I completely disagree Z... they'd have even more trouble in the old days because they are so inept in terms of knowing defense. They survive on athleticism.
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Post by Zealous Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:31 am

sportsczy wrote:Tackling technique has gone down the toilet mostly imo...  That's the biggest issue with Pepe and Ramos:  Neither is a good tackler.  That's why they would both fail miserably in the 80s at least.  You would never make it if you didn't have extremely good technique on your tackles.  It was a must in my day.

Also, tactical awareness was very important too.  

I completely disagree Z... they'd have even more trouble in the old days because they are so inept in terms of knowing defense.  They survive on athleticism.
Totally disagree mate. Not just with how bad you think Pepe and Ramos understand the game (which I can safely say is underrated at this point) but also with how you needed to understand the rules or you would fail.

Pepe and Ramos tackle just fine, hardly any of the fouls they commit are actually because of their tackles but rather it's stuff like grabbing hands/shirts or blocking off runs that gets them into trouble. Back then stuff like that was fair game.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:44 am

Ramos and Pepe would be gods in the 80's and 90's..what the actual fck.....

A foul is still a foul, now, the 90's or the 80's...the only difference is severity of punishment.

Plus forgetting that, Ramos is just plain garbage and seeing runs...and with all the real 9's that played back then, he would of been exposed even more by the increases quality from guys ranging from Shevchenko to Crespo and so many in between.

Plus, "gods" in the class compared to the likes Thuram, Nesta, Ayala, Desailly.......wat.

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Post by M99 Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:45 am

Ramos and Pepe would would be what in the 80s/90s? Good lord.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:47 am

I played in that era and was a huge fan... you can disagree with me.  But i'm telling you:  Both Pepe and Ramos have very, very poor defensive technique and tactical awareness.  It's true that back then you could get away with more.  But all the systems were a 442 with overlapping fullbacks.  The defensive recovery usually consisted of the CBs and 2 midfielders.  One of the CBs was also a libero...

Also, the forwards could get away with a ton too.  For example, the German forwards liked to give you a quick jab in the balls before making their run (no joke).  Italians used to knee you right behind the knee cap and then go lol.

Your positioning and technique had to be so good because you had to defend yourself before the play and then you only had the libero to back you up if you failed.  You couldn't afford to start off in a bad position.

Ramos and Pepe would be in mid-table teams back in those days imo.  They are all about using their physical attributes mostly.  But then again, i think that they would have learned the fundamentals a lot more then too because it was required.

Both Pepe and Ramos get caught so often on the wrong side of their man that it's almost unbelievable.  Back in the 80s, if a forward got you on his wrong side, he'd grab you and pin you there... nowadays, they can't do that so you have a chance to recover.

I can go on and on.  That's why i admire players like Silva so much.  They're old school in how they defend.  They get you with their positioning and anticipation first...  they rarely ever get caught where they need to make last ditch efforts.  In fact, Silva rarely ever has to go to ground.  That's how it's supposed to get done.
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Post by jibers Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:51 am

sportsczy wrote:I played in that era and was a huge fan... you can disagree with me.  But i'm telling you:  Both Pepe and Ramos have very, very poor defensive technique and tactical awareness.  It's true that back then you could get away with more.  But all the systems were a 442 with overlapping fullbacks.  The defensive recovery usually consisted of the CBs and 2 midfielders.  One of the CBs was also a libero...

Also, the forwards could get away with a ton too.  For example, the German forwards liked to give you a quick jab in the balls before making their run (no joke).  Italians used to knee you right behind the knee cap and then go lol.

Your positioning and technique had to be so good because you had to defend yourself before the play and then you only had the libero to back you up if you failed.  You couldn't afford to start off in a bad position.

Ramos and Pepe would be in mid-table teams back in those days imo.  They are all about using their physical attributes mostly.  But then again, i think that they would have learned the fundamentals a lot more then too because it was required.

Both Pepe and Ramos get caught so often on the wrong side of their man that it's almost unbelievable.  Back in the 80s, if a forward got you on his wrong side, he'd grab you and pin you there... nowadays, they can't do that so you have a chance to recover.

I can go on and on.  That's why i admire players like Silva so much.  They're old school in how they defend.  They get you with their positioning and anticipation first...  they rarely ever get caught where they need to make last ditch efforts.  In fact, Silva rarely ever has to go to ground.  That's how it's supposed to get done.
Best post I have seen in a while. Zealous you really are clueless lol.
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Post by Zealous Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:55 am

The Franchise wrote:Ramos and Pepe would be gods in the 80's and 90's..what the actual fck.....

A foul is still a foul, now, the 90's or the 80's...the only difference is severity of punishment.

Plus forgetting that, Ramos is just plain garbage and seeing runs...and with all the real 9's that played back then, he would of been exposed even more by the increases quality from guys ranging from Shevchenko to Crespo and so many in between.

Plus, "gods" in the class compared to the likes Thuram, Nesta, Ayala, Desailly.......wat.

haha obviously hyperbole on my part. My point is they would be considered better than they are nowadays. Ignore the gods part please I immediately concede I was going too far there Laughing

They play aggressive, so less severe punishments would be huge for them. A good player isn't as good when he's afraid he'll get hurt. I've seen Nesta commit soon horror tackles back in the day yet nowadays everyone thinks all his tackles were squeaky clean.

Don't forget playing for Madrid automatically makes Pepe and Ramos worse than they really are. They'd look much better on another team with someone else next to them covering for weaknesses.
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Post by Zealous Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:56 am

jibers wrote:
sportsczy wrote:I played in that era and was a huge fan... you can disagree with me.  But i'm telling you:  Both Pepe and Ramos have very, very poor defensive technique and tactical awareness.  It's true that back then you could get away with more.  But all the systems were a 442 with overlapping fullbacks.  The defensive recovery usually consisted of the CBs and 2 midfielders.  One of the CBs was also a libero...

Also, the forwards could get away with a ton too.  For example, the German forwards liked to give you a quick jab in the balls before making their run (no joke).  Italians used to knee you right behind the knee cap and then go lol.

Your positioning and technique had to be so good because you had to defend yourself before the play and then you only had the libero to back you up if you failed.  You couldn't afford to start off in a bad position.

Ramos and Pepe would be in mid-table teams back in those days imo.  They are all about using their physical attributes mostly.  But then again, i think that they would have learned the fundamentals a lot more then too because it was required.

Both Pepe and Ramos get caught so often on the wrong side of their man that it's almost unbelievable.  Back in the 80s, if a forward got you on his wrong side, he'd grab you and pin you there... nowadays, they can't do that so you have a chance to recover.

I can go on and on.  That's why i admire players like Silva so much.  They're old school in how they defend.  They get you with their positioning and anticipation first...  they rarely ever get caught where they need to make last ditch efforts.  In fact, Silva rarely ever has to go to ground.  That's how it's supposed to get done.
Best post I have seen in a while. Zealous you really are clueless lol.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:59 am

I agree that 95% of the time, any CB that plays for Madrid either goes retard or gets injured.

I mean Pepe was the best CB in Euro 2012 and look what he does for Madrid.  Ramos is actually very solid for Spain NT.

I don't know what happens... i started considering there's some sort of curse when Walter Samuel looked like a pub player for us and he's far from that lol. Metzelder was always injured too and i thought he was great. Etc.
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Post by Zealous Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:02 pm

sportsczy wrote:I agree that 95% of the time, any CB that plays for Madrid either goes retard or gets injured.

I mean Pepe was the best CB in Euro 2012 and look what he does for Madrid.  Ramos is actually very solid for Spain NT.

I don't know what happens... i started considering there's some sort of curse when Walter Samuel looked like a pub player for us and he's far from that lol.  Metzelder was always injured too and i thought he was great.  Etc.
Don't forget Balon D'Or winner Cannavaro lol
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Post by sportsczy Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:06 pm

If you're going to be very relative and just think within Real Madrid's bubble...  Pepe and Ramos have been the two best CBs we've had in the last 10 years who've played regularly without getting injured LaughingNo Sad

Edit: I think Carvalho was better than both for a year. I take it back.
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Post by halamadrid2 Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:09 pm

free_cat wrote:How is it that no one is saying the Galatasaray guy dived? Surely, if everyone didn't hate Ramos, everyone would be laughing at the Galatasary guy for diving...

That hipocrisy.
Sure it was a dive but Ramos should not have been in that situation to start with and should not have "tried" to grab his wrist

Nearly every game pepe or ramos make at least one big mistake and it ends up costing us dearly. Getting a little fed up of that
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Post by sportsczy Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:12 pm

I have to add that La Liga style refereeing is very hard on defenders. You can't sneeze on a guy without it being called a foul. In those circumstances, it's very hard to play defense aggressively... you're forced to defend very cautiously, which isn't the temperament of either Pepe or Ramos. If i were them, i'd go to EPL tbh.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:17 pm

Zealous wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Ramos and Pepe would be gods in the 80's and 90's..what the actual fck.....

A foul is still a foul, now, the 90's or the 80's...the only difference is severity of punishment.

Plus forgetting that, Ramos is just plain garbage and seeing runs...and with all the real 9's that played back then, he would of been exposed even more by the increases quality from guys ranging from Shevchenko to Crespo and so many in between.

Plus, "gods" in the class compared to the likes Thuram, Nesta, Ayala, Desailly.......wat.

haha obviously hyperbole on my part. My point is they would be considered better than they are nowadays. Ignore the gods part please I immediately concede I was going too far there Laughing

They play aggressive, so less severe punishments would be huge for them. A good player isn't as good when he's afraid he'll get hurt. I've seen Nesta commit soon horror tackles back in the day yet nowadays everyone thinks all his tackles were squeaky clean.

Don't forget playing for Madrid automatically makes Pepe and Ramos worse than they really are. They'd look much better on another team with someone else next to them covering for weaknesses.
Ok but no, they would be worse, not better. They are fortunate now if anything that the is a dearth of 9's the quality that was around in the 90's and 80's.

Yes, less punishments would mean they play in more games, but I think people remember or think about the past era's differently than they actually were. I am the first to say now is too soft, but people speak as if 10-20 years ago (and older actually) a true foul wasnt a foul. The soft slight touches and clean slide tackles not allowed now for sure, but thats not what those two are doing. Pepe and Ramos are on some next stuff.

They would look better on another team? Maybe, debatable...but they wouldnt actually be better.

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Post by Kaladin Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:24 pm

Zealous wrote:
jibers wrote:
sportsczy wrote:I played in that era and was a huge fan... you can disagree with me.  But i'm telling you:  Both Pepe and Ramos have very, very poor defensive technique and tactical awareness.  It's true that back then you could get away with more.  But all the systems were a 442 with overlapping fullbacks.  The defensive recovery usually consisted of the CBs and 2 midfielders.  One of the CBs was also a libero...

Also, the forwards could get away with a ton too.  For example, the German forwards liked to give you a quick jab in the balls before making their run (no joke).  Italians used to knee you right behind the knee cap and then go lol.

Your positioning and technique had to be so good because you had to defend yourself before the play and then you only had the libero to back you up if you failed.  You couldn't afford to start off in a bad position.

Ramos and Pepe would be in mid-table teams back in those days imo.  They are all about using their physical attributes mostly.  But then again, i think that they would have learned the fundamentals a lot more then too because it was required.

Both Pepe and Ramos get caught so often on the wrong side of their man that it's almost unbelievable.  Back in the 80s, if a forward got you on his wrong side, he'd grab you and pin you there... nowadays, they can't do that so you have a chance to recover.

I can go on and on.  That's why i admire players like Silva so much.  They're old school in how they defend.  They get you with their positioning and anticipation first...  they rarely ever get caught where they need to make last ditch efforts.  In fact, Silva rarely ever has to go to ground.  That's how it's supposed to get done.
Best post I have seen in a while. Zealous you really are clueless lol.
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rofl
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Post by Gil Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:57 pm

Zealous does have a point though. Apart from maybe Thiago Silva and Ashley Cole there isn't a single defender today that isn't heavily criticized and it isn't simply because the "quality of defending has gone down the toilet". I doubt it's a coincidence either, apart from perhaps Goalkeepers there isn't another position under incessant scrutiny like defenders.

Like the center position in the NBA, rule changes and strict officiating has undoubtedly impacted the art of defending to favour the more offensive minded players that bring in the viewers.

Not only that but the constant romanticism of the past has probably played a part as well. For all we know, Beckenbauer and Baresi weren't the all conquering defenders that history tells us. Would they still be infallible in today's rules under the microscope of live tv, instant replays, rebroadcasts, highlight packages, online streams, analytic shows and of course the era of social media in which information travels faster than anyone ever could have imagined 40 or 50 years ago?

Or maybe that's all bollocks and it's simply a case of attackers and midfielders being more skilled than previous generations hence increasing the difficulty of hindering their effectiveness?
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Post by The Franchise Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:59 pm

Or, the defenders or the centers are simply not as good as they were.

Yeah, I think thats it.
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Post by Zealous Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:49 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Zealous wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Ramos and Pepe would be gods in the 80's and 90's..what the actual fck.....

A foul is still a foul, now, the 90's or the 80's...the only difference is severity of punishment.

Plus forgetting that, Ramos is just plain garbage and seeing runs...and with all the real 9's that played back then, he would of been exposed even more by the increases quality from guys ranging from Shevchenko to Crespo and so many in between.

Plus, "gods" in the class compared to the likes Thuram, Nesta, Ayala, Desailly.......wat.

haha obviously hyperbole on my part. My point is they would be considered better than they are nowadays. Ignore the gods part please I immediately concede I was going too far there Laughing

They play aggressive, so less severe punishments would be huge for them. A good player isn't as good when he's afraid he'll get hurt. I've seen Nesta commit soon horror tackles back in the day yet nowadays everyone thinks all his tackles were squeaky clean.

Don't forget playing for Madrid automatically makes Pepe and Ramos worse than they really are. They'd look much better on another team with someone else next to them covering for weaknesses.
Ok but no, they would be worse, not better. They are fortunate now if anything that the is a dearth of 9's the quality that was around in the 90's and 80's.

Yes, less punishments would mean they play in more games, but I think people remember or think about the past era's differently than they actually were. I am the first to say now is too soft, but people speak as if 10-20 years ago (and older actually) a true foul wasnt a foul. The soft slight touches and clean slide tackles not allowed now for sure, but thats not what those two are doing. Pepe and Ramos are on some next stuff.

They would look better on another team? Maybe, debatable...but they wouldnt actually be better.

Fair enough, I concede I'm not an expert here since all I have to go on is tapes of a bunch of old classic games but the Madrid bubble that our CBs live in is very real. I bet you anything they play better in different teams be it back then or in 2013.

Part of it is that they're a bad fit. They have the same strengths and weaknesses so while their strengths are magnified their weaknesses become more obvious.
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