Lahm defensively solid?

Gil wrote:Cost Germany a potential final.

Cost Germany the Euros 4 years ago when Torres outfought him for the only goal of the game.

Very good going forward, overrated defender.

MindGames7 wrote:Statistically, 72% of the tackles, interceptions, headers, etc. that Lahm attempts are successul. That's poor. 87% of his offensive actions are successful. Personally feel he should be a winger.

The best full-back in the world is Eric Abidal. 88% of his defensive actions are successful, and 90% of his offensive actions (passing, dribbles, crosses, etc.) are successful.

A pretty meaningless & stat.

For example Nigel De Jong has one of the best passing percentage around 92% in the world. Does that make him creative??More creative than Sneijder whose stat is far down??

It depends on your ability to play 1-2's in congestested areas,no. of attempeted dribbles and the difficulty,how risky or safe the pass or cross was.

With Barca's tiki taka & Abidal not being very creative its only natural he will have a very high Passing Range.

Again if this stat was a measure Nigel De Jong would be a better offensive player than Iniesta,Messi,Xavi.

Of course abidal has amazing attacking stats,he doesn't attack

How can someone actually believe Abidal is a better fullback than Lahm...?

Kingofeverythingclassy wrote:A pretty meaningless & stat.

For example Nigel De Jong has one of the best passing percentage around 92% in the world. Does that make him creative??More creative than Sneijder whose stat is far down??

It depends on your ability to play 1-2's in congestested areas,no. of attempeted dribbles and the difficulty,how risky or safe the pass or cross was.

With Barca's tiki taka & Abidal not being very creative its only natural he will have a very high Passing Range.

Again if this stat was a measure Nigel De Jong would be a better offensive player than Iniesta,Messi,Xavi.

I didn't mean to imply that Abidal is more creative.

Nigel De Jong play safe passes but there's nothing wrong with that. It shows that he's intelligent enough to know his limits and he doesn't do anything detrimental to his team by playing the way he does (except that he is defensively poor for someone whose job it is to defend ).

And it's the same with Eric Abidal. He knows his limits and doesn't lose possession or make many fouls. He's an athletic, neat and tidy player who does very little wrong, and he's very good at the job he's in the team to do. The way he handled Antonio Valencia in the 09/10 CL final made me realise just how good he is.

I know about these errors and I still trust my stats because we're not comparing Abidal with Xavi or Iniesta, we're comparing him with Lahm. The thing with Lahm is, he might be creative and pacey and exciting, but the fact is that he gives the ball away a lot and makes a lot of defensive errors, which is detrimental to his teams' possession and forward momentum. For those reasons, I believe that Abidal is the more effective left back.

Mindgames7 this thread is not about Abidal, please get out.

The Messiah wrote:Mindgames7 this thread is not about Abidal, please get out.

Well if you were judging him purely on his own merit then all you'd ever talk about would be past Lahm vs present Lahm, and I just thought that would be pretty boring, so to see how good he is I chose to compare him my favourite left back in the hope that it would make the conversation more interesting.

Sorry.

MindGames7 wrote:

The Messiah wrote:Mindgames7 this thread is not about Abidal, please get out.

Well if you were judging him purely on his own merit then all you'd ever talk about would be past Lahm vs present Lahm, and I just thought that would be pretty boring, so to see how good he is I chose to compare him my favourite left back in the hope that it would make the conversation more interesting.

Sorry.

Still Get out, you are here to cause trouble and I tell you what, you don't want Kingofeverythingclassy trouble, the guy is a smart-ass.

The Messiah wrote:Still Get out, you are here to cause trouble and I tell you what, you don't want Kingofeverythingclassy trouble, the guy is a smart-ass.

I'm not here to cause trouble! I'm here to have an interesting debate over how good Philip Lahm is defensively, and the only way you can do that is by comparing him to other players defensively.

And I agree that he seems smart but we're not exactly disagreeing with each other. It was a perfectly reasonable criticism for him to make, but it's one that I feel I responded well to by elaborating on my point.

If anything you're the one stirring things up by telling me to get out!

MindGames7 wrote:

The Messiah wrote:Still Get out, you are here to cause trouble and I tell you what, you don't want Kingofeverythingclassy trouble, the guy is a smart-ass.

I'm not here to cause trouble! I'm here to have an interesting debate over how good Philip Lahm is defensively, and the only way you can do that is by comparing him to other players defensively.

And I agree that he seems smart but we're not exactly disagreeing with each other. It was a perfectly reasonable criticism for him to make, but it's one that I feel I responded well to by elaborating on my point.

If anything you're the one stirring things up by telling me to get out!

and you don't want to debate this with me as well, to begin with I will start by attacking United players, and totally ignore Lahm and this topic, because I know regardless of what I say, you will only agree with my opinion if you already share my opinion.

The Messiah wrote:

MindGames7 wrote:

The Messiah wrote:Still Get out, you are here to cause trouble and I tell you what, you don't want Kingofeverythingclassy trouble, the guy is a smart-ass.

I'm not here to cause trouble! I'm here to have an interesting debate over how good Philip Lahm is defensively, and the only way you can do that is by comparing him to other players defensively.

And I agree that he seems smart but we're not exactly disagreeing with each other. It was a perfectly reasonable criticism for him to make, but it's one that I feel I responded well to by elaborating on my point.

If anything you're the one stirring things up by telling me to get out!

and you don't want to debate this with me as well, to begin with I will start by attacking United players, and totally ignore Lahm and this topic, because I know regardless of what I say, you will only agree with my opinion if you already share my opinion.

But this thread isn't about United players. Messiah, you should get out.

The Messiah wrote:and you don't want to debate this with me as well, to begin with I will start by attacking United players, and totally ignore Lahm and this topic, because I know regardless of what I say, you will only agree with my opinion if you already share my opinion.

Why would you attack United players and go off topic when you just asked me to get out because I'm going off topic? You're making yourself look a bit silly here now, I didn't do anything wrong and I think you know that.

I've had enough of this squabble, please start talking about Lahm again.

MindGames7 wrote:

Kingofeverythingclassy wrote:A pretty meaningless & stat.

For example Nigel De Jong has one of the best passing percentage around 92% in the world. Does that make him creative??More creative than Sneijder whose stat is far down??

It depends on your ability to play 1-2's in congestested areas,no. of attempeted dribbles and the difficulty,how risky or safe the pass or cross was.

With Barca's tiki taka & Abidal not being very creative its only natural he will have a very high Passing Range.

Again if this stat was a measure Nigel De Jong would be a better offensive player than Iniesta,Messi,Xavi.

I didn't mean to imply that Abidal is more creative.

Nigel De Jong play safe passes but there's nothing wrong with that. It shows that he's intelligent enough to know his limits and he doesn't do anything detrimental to his team by playing the way he does (except that he is defensively poor for someone whose job it is to defend ).

And it's the same with Eric Abidal. He knows his limits and doesn't lose possession or make many fouls. He's an athletic, neat and tidy player who does very little wrong, and he's very good at the job he's in the team to do. The way he handled Antonio Valencia in the 09/10 CL final made me realise just how good he is.

I know about these errors and I still trust my stats because we're not comparing Abidal with Xavi or Iniesta, we're comparing him with Lahm. The thing with Lahm is, he might be creative and pacey and exciting, but the fact is that he gives the ball away a lot and makes a lot of defensive errors, which is detrimental to his teams' possession and forward momentum. For those reasons, I believe that Abidal is the more effective left back.

Totally off the mark. You have 0 reasons & you admitted. When did Lahm give the ball away?? I have never seen lahm make miss-passes.

But Lahm tends to cross the ball far more than Abidal that is because he can create a goal like the one against Madrid 1st Leg for Gomez or such chances.

He plays 1-2's with Robben & Ribery in tight spaces amidst congested areas which opens up space for other or can result in a key pass or a clear shot at goal from a few yards. Now Lahm knows his limits which are WAY WAY higher than Abidal.

Since Lahm's upper ceilings are much higher than Abidal he makes far more risky attacks which can cause loosing the ball. For example Messi tries a lot of dribbles & fails too. So his conversion ratio can be lower than say a Higuain who can try 4 & succeed in 3 all season.

That does not make Higuain an offensively better player.

Other than that Lahm has been LB & RB for however the team wants him to be & he is forced to make a lot of last ditch tackles against WC Wingers & he does not have a Thiago Silva with him too. Its not too easy to play RB being naturally right footed & defensively be the best Full Back in the world.

But at RB it is safe to assume that Lahm is very good both in attack and defense and in terms of all-round Full-Back ability he is the undoubted best and probably has no competitor in the world now.

MindGames7 wrote:

The Messiah wrote:and you don't want to debate this with me as well, to begin with I will start by attacking United players, and totally ignore Lahm and this topic, because I know regardless of what I say, you will only agree with my opinion if you already share my opinion.

Why would you attack United players and go off topic when you just asked me to get out because I'm going off topic? You're making yourself look a bit silly here now, I didn't do anything wrong and I think you know that.

I've had enough of this squabble, please start talking about Lahm again.

[quote="The Messiah"]

MindGames7 wrote:

The Messiah wrote:

Because I know regardless of what I say, either it make sense or not, you will only agree with my opinion if you already share my opinion.

I hope you can figure that out..

Also Antonio Valencia is no Lionel Messi. He is good sometimes great at best. But he is no defintion over the Quality of a Full Back. He is not in that league. You need to have consistently 5-6 Good Season playing as a starter & having quite a lot of goals & assists & some quality performances in important matches to get to that level

Well, in my opinion, risks are not worth it. If I was a manger, I'd set up a very low-risk team and put a lot of emphasis on possession and patience. That's just me.

There's no way that we could tell which tactic works best unless we were both managers or had a game of FIFA or something. But I don't have a playstation or anything so...

The Messiah wrote:I hope you can figure that out..

You said that there's no way you could convince me of something unless I already agree with you but I could say the same thing about you. So don't try and take the high ground.

I'm actually quite open to criticism, it's why I post here. I want to find out if there's anything I haven't thought of that could improve my stats.

MindGames7 wrote:

The Messiah wrote:I hope you can figure that out..

You said that there's no way you could convince me of something unless I already agree with you but I could say the same thing about you. So don't try and take the high ground.

I'm actually quite open to criticism, it's why I post here. I want to find out if there's anything I haven't thought of that could improve my stats.

Usually if I want to make reasonable post, I put time into it, lets say about 20min or so, if I'm to explain to you the reason why I feel Lahm is the best fullback in the world, I might have to put too much effort and time on it. Which I honestly do not want to do, as I know it will not change your opinion or whatsoever unless you already agree with me or share my views.


Nevertheless I feel regarding Carrick and Fletcher there is a chance you might share my views and opinion on that one, since you are a United fan, so I took me time to explain it, it's better if we debate that, rather than wasting time here on something that both you and I know that we can not come to a conclusion.

All the more, I am ok to mess around if that's what you want, if you want to go ahead with the dialogue, we can say silly things to one another, I am also ok with that. I can say Evra is shiit and you say Lahm give away the ball far too much, without any proof, evidence or whatsoever.


I'm fine with that, I am not a classy poster, I just like to be considered as a poster with style, a flexible style that can be easily amended

The Messiah wrote:All the more, I am ok to mess around if that;s what you want, if you want to go ahead with the dialogue, we can say silly things to one another, I am also ok with that. I can say Evra is shiit and you say Lahm give away the ball far too much, without any proof, evidence or whatsoever.

I'm fine with that, I am not a classy poster, I just like to be considered as a poster with style, a flexible style that can be easily amended

But I said Abidal is a more reliable defender than Lahm, which is the topic of this thread, and I backed myself up with evidence. What's wrong with that?

MindGames7 wrote:

The Messiah wrote:All the more, I am ok to mess around if that;s what you want, if you want to go ahead with the dialogue, we can say silly things to one another, I am also ok with that. I can say Evra is shiit and you say Lahm give away the ball far too much, without any proof, evidence or whatsoever.

I'm fine with that, I am not a classy poster, I just like to be considered as a poster with style, a flexible style that can be easily amended

But I said Abidal is a more reliable defender than Lahm, which is the topic of this thread, and I backed myself up with evidence. What's wrong with that?

Yea Right...? What evidence...?

MindGames7 wrote: And it's the same with Eric Abidal. He knows his limits and doesn't lose possession or make many fouls. He's an athletic, neat and tidy player who does very little wrong, and he's very good at the job he's in the team to do. The way he handled Antonio Valencia in the 09/10 CL final made me realise just how good he is.

Well this doesn't say's anything about Lahm, in fact in some ways it helps my argument. And it's the same with Philip Lahm. He knows his limits and doesn't lose possession or make many fouls. He's an athletic, neat and tidy player who does very little wrong, and he's very good at the job he's in the team to do. The way he handled C.Ronaldo, Di Maria, Silva, Aguero, Messi, Shaqiri, Rooney in Various matches, that consist world cup, Europe Cup, CPL Grp stg, qrt fina, semi Finals and German super cup made me realise just how good he is.

MindGames7 wrote:I know about these errors and I still trust my stats because we're not comparing Abidal with Xavi or Iniesta, we're comparing him with Lahm.

This makes absolute no sense to me, particular the marked part, it's a silly thing to say and I can as well say without any evidence or whatsoever. I can as well say

I know about these errors and I still trust my stats because we're not comparing Lahm with Schweinsteiger or Kroos, we're comparing him with Abidal.

MindGames7 wrote:The thing with Lahm is, he might be creative and pacey and exciting, but the fact is that he gives the ball away a lot and makes a lot of defensive errors, which is detrimental to his teams' possession and forward momentum. For those reasons, I believe that Abidal is the more effective left back.

Do you honestly consider this as evidence...? seriously dude..?

Lahm rarely ever gives the ball away, his leg is always stick to the ball, regarding making mistake, except for last season when he was played on the left side next to extremely slow Badstuber Lahm hardly ever make any mistakes.

Nevertheless I still have one more silly thing to say.


The thing with Abidal is, he might be Defensive and strong and boring, but the fact is that he rarely makes forward runs or create goal scoring chances, which is detrimental to his teams' attacking momentums. For those reasons, I believe that Lahm is the more effective left back.

I think the only good point you made there was the fact that Lahm plays further forward than Abidal.

I would argue that Abidal's sensibleness makes up for his lack of attacking contribution. Him staying back allows all the other players to get forward. If he went forward as well then their defence would fall apart and they wouldn't win the ball back as quickly, which was evident when he didn't play much last season.

Don't get me wrong, I rate Lahm very highly, but Abidal is something else.

However I feel that Lahm should be played further forward in Champions League games, as he's simply not good enough defensively to play at left back at the highest level.

MindGames7 wrote:
However I feel that Lahm should be played further forward in Champions League games, as he's simply not good enough defensively to play at left back at the highest level.

Ok here we go.


Lets start with how he got United kicked out of CPL 2010, if it wasn't for Lahm United could have probably play their 4th CPL final in how many years, he Lahm eliminated United easily, United with average mediocre thugs like Evra can not really compete with a top Gun like Bayern Munchen.


Ok if it wasn't for Lahm persistence, maybe Ferdinand and Vidic wouldn't have made that terrible mistake in the first leg that allowed Olic to slick in and hammer the ball in, they were scared busy watching out for the big bad Lahm forward runs, I feel sorry for United fan for over a year now you have not won anything, we out played Manchester City and even strike panic and fear in Tevez heart yet they smashed United and went ahead to win the league, isn't that a bit disgraceful the manner in which we smashed you and 2 years later a team we smashed also smashed you and eventually we smashed Basel 7:0 who smashed you out of CPL.


I fell sorry for you right now, because just a few days ago you saw Lahm lifting the German super cup and this has inevitable led to your envious and jealous opinion about this best fullback in the world. Tell me something, are you jealous...? are you worried we signed Mandzukic, Shaqiri, Dante and Pizarro and then maybe Martinez..?are you bitter that while you have mediocre fullbacks like Evra and a winger Valencia as you right-back, we can easily boast of having the best fullback in the world, all in the name of Lahm, Alaba, Rafinha, Contento and also good cover in Can, Boateng, Badstuber and Dante.


I understand that feeling, that is exactly thesame way Liverpool fans feel, they are scared glory was snatched out of their hand, are you scare City are about to do thesame. You don't need to be scared, regardless of Carrick you still have the best midfielder in the Game, HOWARD WEBB and of course Fergie time is there when you need a little bit of helping hand.


Be afraid when Fergie retires, it's inevitable, your club is in serious debt, just one season without trophy we saw the Americans are already putting out to the public, I fear for your future if Fergie eventually retires.

Jesus Christ you're biased.

MindGames7 wrote:Jesus Christ you're biased.

That was an objective argument, trust me it's nothing different from yours.

MindGames7 wrote:Well, in my opinion, risks are not worth it. If I was a manger, I'd set up a very low-risk team and put a lot of emphasis on possession and patience. That's just me.

There's no way that we could tell which tactic works best unless we were both managers or had a game of FIFA or something. But I don't have a playstation or anything so...

The only people who think like you are Relegation Threatened view. Again I dont mean to come accross as rude but its in general according to me a very un-intelligent way of thinking. Play no pass which has an element of creativity or risk in it??

Just maintain possession on & on for 90 minutes. Even it sounds rubbish. Aimless non-practical even unrealistic in Fifa kind of football. Sorry to say but your basic ideas about football are even worse than our Resident Troll Idriozet Messiah.

The only way anyone would even consider doing something like this if we had 11 Rafael's & Phil Jones' against the likes of Messi,Thiago Silva,Iniesta,Ronaldo & so on.