Is Lugano ignorant or blind?

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Post by Sushi Master Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:15 pm

Aren't most of you Brazilians here from recent European backgrounds?

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Post by rsinatra Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:57 pm

Sushi Master wrote:Aren't most of you Brazilians here from recent European backgrounds?

I'm actually a big mix. I have Spanish and probably some Portuguese from my father's side (who's from São Paulo state), and from my mom's side I have some Portuguese as well, and Amerindian. She does come from the Amazon state Smile. I think that if I go back maaaany generations on her side, I might even have some Jewish blood lol. Anyway, my skin is a little darker Smile. A true caboclo lol.

Oh, and the negro, neguinho, negão, etc. it's all very common in Brazil as well, not necessarily racist.
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Post by rsinatra Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:59 pm

Ganso wrote:I'm white and there is some racism here in brazil....I have to admit that most of my family is kind of racist.my grandparents for example would never let me date black chicks.but the younger generations like me arent racist at all

really? that's people from the south i tell you Razz, when you reach são paulo, rio, etc, i think things are less racist, but they're still there !!

But yeah it's all about generations. My girlfriend's parents (she's Danish) are a little xenophobic, especially when it comes to Muslims which there are plenty of here in Denmark. But they have nothing against Brazilians Very Happy
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Post by Shotta Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:04 pm

rsinatra wrote:
Shotta wrote:rsinatra is hilarious. There is way less racism in South American Countries than in Xenophobic Europe.

im sorry, are you south american? because i am, i was born and raised there. i think i am in a better position to talk about it than some bayern munich likely-to-be german fan.

Lol I am not going to tell you where I am from but I can assure you that life as a minority in Europe is 10x harder than in South America. If I wanted, I could blast Europe much harder than you blasted South America.
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Post by rsinatra Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:34 pm

Shotta wrote:
rsinatra wrote:
Shotta wrote:rsinatra is hilarious. There is way less racism in South American Countries than in Xenophobic Europe.

im sorry, are you south american? because i am, i was born and raised there. i think i am in a better position to talk about it than some bayern munich likely-to-be german fan.

Lol I am not going to tell you where I am from but I can assure you that life as a minority in Europe is 10x harder than in South America. If I wanted, I could blast Europe much harder than you blasted South America.

Then I suppose you're not SAmerican, huh? lol. Have you ever even lived in South America? You can't compare one thing to something else that you don't know, so stay out of this conversation.

I live in Europe too, and I am not exactly white (more like a moreno), so I know what it is to be a minority. In fact, I once had to move to another country because I couldn't renew my visa in Denmark. I've experienced prejudice I never did in back home. Luckily it all ended well. But don't go about thinking you're the only one who knows what it is to be an immigrant or a minority.

And listen I am not "blasting" South America. I love my country Brazil, and I love my continent. I think we are the best, coolest people in the world, even our hermanos argentinos lol. But I am not going to lie and say that we are perfect saints. We are not. And that's the point I was trying to make. I was disagreeing with Lugano.
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Post by Sushi Master Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:47 pm

rsinatra wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Aren't most of you Brazilians here from recent European backgrounds?

I'm actually a big mix. I have Spanish and probably some Portuguese from my father's side (who's from São Paulo state), and from my mom's side I have some Portuguese as well, and Amerindian. She does come from the Amazon state Smile. I think that if I go back maaaany generations on her side, I might even have some Jewish blood lol. Anyway, my skin is a little darker Smile. A true caboclo lol.

Oh, and the negro, neguinho, negão, etc. it's all very common in Brazil as well, not necessarily racist.
Yeah, the mix is what makes us Latinos. I'm a huge mix, too, although mostly all European/Middle Eastern in origin. Morenos get a lot of chicks in Europe, I hear Wink

I was more thinking in that there are a lot of Brazil supporters here who don't even live in Brazil, so you have a taste of both worlds and can compare the level of racism.
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Post by rsinatra Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:52 pm

Sushi Master wrote:
rsinatra wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Aren't most of you Brazilians here from recent European backgrounds?

I'm actually a big mix. I have Spanish and probably some Portuguese from my father's side (who's from São Paulo state), and from my mom's side I have some Portuguese as well, and Amerindian. She does come from the Amazon state Smile. I think that if I go back maaaany generations on her side, I might even have some Jewish blood lol. Anyway, my skin is a little darker Smile. A true caboclo lol.

Oh, and the negro, neguinho, negão, etc. it's all very common in Brazil as well, not necessarily racist.
Yeah, the mix is what makes us Latinos. I'm a huge mix, too, although mostly all European/Middle Eastern in origin. Morenos get a lot of chicks in Europe, I hear Wink

I was more thinking in that there are a lot of Brazil supporters here who don't even live in Brazil, so you have a taste of both worlds and can compare the level of racism.

oh yes Denmark is a paradise for all morenos lol. Very Happy

And that's what I meant in my reply to Shotta.. ive been to both so i can compare it..
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Post by Shotta Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:18 pm

"Then I suppose you're not SAmerican, huh? lol. Have you ever even lived in South America? You can't compare one thing to something else that you don't know, so stay out of this conversation."

Like I said before; I know more about this than everyone combined in this thread. I will not tell you where I have lived or am from. Your tone telling me to stay out of this conversation is also very rude.
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Post by rsinatra Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:45 pm

Shotta wrote:"Then I suppose you're not SAmerican, huh? lol. Have you ever even lived in South America? You can't compare one thing to something else that you don't know, so stay out of this conversation."

Like I said before; I know more about this than everyone combined in this thread. I will not tell you where I have lived or am from. Your tone telling me to stay out of this conversation is also very rude.

your first sentence on this thread : "rsinatra is hilarious." not only did you not add anything new to the discussion, you also ironized and belittled my opinion. so, you chose the tone of this conversation, and here you get what you give. but yes go crying in the corner, i am sure youre the most unfortunate miserable person in the world and no one knows suffering and pain as much as you do Wink and no one can possibly ever win an arguement against you because your arguments are just amazing. good night and good luck!
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Post by Nirgall Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:16 pm

I disagree with Barrilete cosmico regarding racism in Argentina. I think it's rather common. I'm pretty average looking (half spanish half italian) for an argentine so I have never suffered racism. But I've witnessed plenty of It.

The tricky thing is that Racism is so blended with classicism and xenophobia, many times you don't know exactly what you are seeing. It's like being darker (specially being native american or part native american), being foreigner (specially from immigrant heavy coutries like Paraguay, Bolivia or Peru) and being poor (specially if with guetto attitude) are considered bad, but not bad enough to justify discrimination by themselves (except the guetto attitude, that's enough by itself). But if you see anyone that has 2 or more of those things, he is very likely to be discriminated very badly.

There's also a strong correlation between race and class. Poor people are generally darker than the majority of the population and with more native american face features, middle classes are whiter but more likely to be sourther european looking, and high classes are much more likely to look northern european and be taller than the average argentinian. (I'm middle class)

Higher classes usually don't discriminate against middle classes, but both those classes and particulary the higher classes do discriminate a lot against lower classes.

If that's discrimination is based on money, education or race it's not entirely clear. Possibly all, though I think race is the main component. You would hardly ever listen anyone insulting another person over their lack of wealth, but it's not uncommon to hear people refer derogatorily to others as "negros de mierda" (shitty black people). Some people may say that this is often in reference to a particularly vulgar attitude and not to their race and that can be true, but the fact that a negative/vulgar attitude is openly and immediately related to a color does speak of racism.


Pd: but to make it clear, don't think argentines are like the ones on the internet insulting everyone and making one racist comment every 30 seconds. Those guy are an internet vocal minority of which I'm very glad that this forum doesn't have any.


Last edited by Nirgall on Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Sushi Master Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:18 pm

I think you're the only Argentine who lives in Argentina, Nirgall. Most of them live overseas from what I understand, so it's understandable that they have different opinions on the matter.
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Post by Nirgall Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:14 pm

Barrilete once said that he spends his time shared between USA and Argentina and If I remember well (perhaps I'm wrong) he is too from Buenos Aires. So i don't think he has such a different perspective.

I think the main source of disagreement comes from telling apart Racism from Xenophobia and Classicism which in Argentina isn't easy.

It's like i said before there's a big correlation between race and class and also between race and and nationality (lots of native american or mixed people in argentina are either nearby countries' immigrants or first generation descendants of of nearby countries' immigrants) so many times the reason for which an individual is being discriminated is unclear.

Also non european immigratory waves are relatively new. Most of our parents (I'm in my twenties) were born before they happened and grew up with the idea that is okay to disrespect someone based on their race or nationality. And that is agravated when exposed to races that aren't common at all in argentina such as people of african origins.

that is an attitude that is slowly changing in the older generation and that is lot less pervasive in newer generation. But many of us still grew up listening to racist comments from our parents and it's an attitude that is hard to shake up.

I mean, I grew up in a rather racist household and many times find myself having offensive non conscious attitudes against other people that I afterwards feel ashamed of. And I don't think any race is worse than the other, It's just things you absorb.

So a lot of times we act like jerks towards people of other races and sometimes think it's okay or don't realize at the time that we are being jerks.

I rememer when I was a kid, me and my best friend were in a 15 years old birthday party (a bid deal for women in Argentina) and my friend (a very blonde guy of austrian descent) told a brazilian black man that served as an entertainer to stay off our table and then added a nice racial epiteth.

The guy was expectably shocked, It was like he had been punched, he only managed to respond with a very polite but angry: Excuse me, have I done anything to you? Afterwards when i spoke to him he didn't understand he had been a huge jerk, It seemed like a completely natural thing to him. Only now he does and denies having done that.

Most of the times is not that extreme and it's more rare that it happenes to people my age, but it's not strange that old people would sometimes make inapropiate (though not necessarily meant to be offensive) racial references in front of people of other races. Younger people may have more touch and sensitivity, but it's likely that treatement is going to be different towards a blonde guy that is going to be to an african guy and specially to a mestizo.

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Post by Sushi Master Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:25 pm

Yes, that sort of thing exists over here, too. Even with more than half the population being mestizo, the frakking president a mestizo and many celebrities and top polititians being of mixed race.

Racism is not going away any time soon, although as it is in Argentina as it is here, younger generations are much more tolerable. But that's a global thing. You're never getting public protests, or crowds during games shouting out racist remarks, shit like that, but it still exists.

I know plenty of guys who constantly make racist remarks (in private. In public you get shot) but then I find out they are sleeping with girls of color Laughing

White people have the power, even in Latin America. So Lugano is dead wrong, even though the level of racism here is pretty laughable compared to Europe, although we have white people racism, too, but that's a whole different story.
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Post by Shotta Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:06 am

rsinatra wrote:
Shotta wrote:"Then I suppose you're not SAmerican, huh? lol. Have you ever even lived in South America? You can't compare one thing to something else that you don't know, so stay out of this conversation."

Like I said before; I know more about this than everyone combined in this thread. I will not tell you where I have lived or am from. Your tone telling me to stay out of this conversation is also very rude.

and no one can possibly ever win an arguement against you because your arguments are just amazing. good night and good luck!

You said it yourself. Thanks for the kind words and accepting defeat.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:04 pm

Just to make myself perfectly clear, I never said that there is no discrimination in Argentina (not that anyone suggested that, I just want to clarify). But I do think most of the causes for discrimination, while they use racist language, has a lot more to do with class discrimination and xenophobia than the race itself. For example, the word "negro" is often used to describe people that live in villas (slums), so someone could be pretty white and still be called a "negro villero". So as Nirgall said it can be pretty confusing to tell what's what. Based out of my own experiences I put more weight on the class discrimination and xenophobia than race, but it's not exactly clear so you will find conflicting opinions.

Also, Argentines just like to talk a lot of sh*t online, most of them are 13 year olds though, so don't mind them.
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Post by rsinatra Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:11 pm

Nirgall wrote:I disagree with Barrilete cosmico regarding racism in Argentina. I think it's rather common. I'm pretty average looking (half spanish half italian) for an argentine so I have never suffered racism. But I've witnessed plenty of It.

The tricky thing is that Racism is so blended with classicism and xenophobia, many times you don't know exactly what you are seeing. It's like being darker (specially being native american or part native american), being foreigner (specially from immigrant heavy coutries like Paraguay, Bolivia or Peru) and being poor (specially if with guetto attitude) are considered bad, but not bad enough to justify discrimination by themselves (except the guetto attitude, that's enough by itself). But if you see anyone that has 2 or more of those things, he is very likely to be discriminated very badly.

There's also a strong correlation between race and class. Poor people are generally darker than the majority of the population and with more native american face features, middle classes are whiter but more likely to be sourther european looking, and high classes are much more likely to look northern european and be taller than the average argentinian. (I'm middle class)

Higher classes usually don't discriminate against middle classes, but both those classes and particulary the higher classes do discriminate a lot against lower classes.

If that's discrimination is based on money, education or race it's not entirely clear. Possibly all, though I think race is the main component. You would hardly ever listen anyone insulting another person over their lack of wealth, but it's not uncommon to hear people refer derogatorily to others as "negros de mierda" (shitty black people). Some people may say that this is often in reference to a particularly vulgar attitude and not to their race and that can be true, but the fact that a negative/vulgar attitude is openly and immediately related to a color does speak of racism.


Pd: but to make it clear, don't think argentines are like the ones on the internet insulting everyone and making one racist comment every 30 seconds. Those guy are an internet vocal minority of which I'm very glad that this forum doesn't have any.

Good post. And classicism is the word I'd been looking for. Because it's exactly the same way in Brazil. And by "exactly" I mean "exactly".

My mom, despite having some Native Brazilian ascendency herself, is white (from our Portuguese ancestors) and is not a "racist" racist, but sometimes she makes some comments that you can hear she has "absorbed" a lot of racism throughout her life (as you put it yourself). Especially when it comes to her black friends/acquaintances, she sometimes calls them "moreno/a", as if saying that they were "negros" or "pretos" was a bad thing, a bad word. Once she even called a black cat moreno LOL. but yes, she doesn't make offensive racist comments, and i've never witnessed her discriminating anyone, but it's just these small things that she probably learnt when growing up. Like, she always gave me the impression of thinking that our maids were not so clean. It took me a while to grow out of that philosophy. So, by not trying to be racist, she ends up being a little racist at these times. But some of her best friends are of African ascendency, luckily I was born in a very open minded family. Smile


Last edited by rsinatra on Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by rsinatra Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:19 pm

Shotta wrote:
rsinatra wrote:
Shotta wrote:"Then I suppose you're not SAmerican, huh? lol. Have you ever even lived in South America? You can't compare one thing to something else that you don't know, so stay out of this conversation."

Like I said before; I know more about this than everyone combined in this thread. I will not tell you where I have lived or am from. Your tone telling me to stay out of this conversation is also very rude.

and no one can possibly ever win an arguement against you because your arguments are just amazing. good night and good luck!

You said it yourself. Thanks for the kind words and accepting defeat.

:facepalm:
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Post by Nirgall Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:33 pm

Hey, rsinatra, I'm just curious, in which part of Brazil did you used to live?
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Post by rsinatra Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:39 am

Nirgall wrote:Hey, rsinatra, I'm just curious, in which part of Brazil did you used to live?

I was born in the northeast, in a city called Recife. My father comes from São Paulo state and my mom comes from the Amazon state. That might be why I have all these different ascendencies. Even my accent is a big question mark at times hehe.
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