What Makes a CL Champion

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Post by Lord Spencer Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:53 pm

-What makes a Champion:

Why did Barca and not Viktoria top the group?

A silly question it might seem, and it is, but a genuine one at that. The answer is not that Barca dive and cheat as some might say, and the answer is not that Barca being a major team have the right to progress. Simply, Barca is a more superior team.

This was a clear cut scenario. However, last round, Basel pulled one of the surprise by throwing United out of the CL. It would be hard to argue that Basel are superior quality wise over United, which suggest there are more to a champion than the mathematical statistics.

Two years prior, a dominant Inter side dispatched the Champions of the EPL, La Liga, and the Bundesliga in a show of both grit and tactical discipline. Which again shows that football is not baseball, the number crunching is not the be all to end all. Football is a game of interactive chess, but not all teams have the same pieces. An army of pawns can defeat a battalion of bishops, and in football, a Greek galley can sink a Portuguese Man o War.

The CL is not a league with a round robin format, it is a battlefield of both skill and wit, determination and passion, grit and flamboyance. Which makes it unpredictable in nature. However, there are certain qualities that a champion must have to win, the qualities that make Barca strong, and that made Basel and APOEL qualify.

1- Winning Eleven:

Some might recognize the Japanese name of PES. And it is an apt name if I do say myself. As the name suggests, this category is dependent entirely in the MOST USED starting eleven each team uses.

Careful analysis of the CL winners of the last 10 years will show that each and every one of them pretty much stuck with a stable starting team, with minor tweaks here and there.

The quality of a team is very important, and none quantifies the quality of a team more than its starting 11. Football is a team game, but only the team that is in the field can play. Which makes this quality a deciding factor in a team’s chances to become champions.

2- Instant Depth:

Serves the same purpose as instant noodles, you are hungry you make some instantly, you have a player injured you summon one that is EQUEL in effectiveness to the team. Which is how instant depth differs from regular depth.

It is well known that depth is important to winning league titles, but in that case the quality of the depth players in never majorly tested and by throwing enough players at the problem it will eventually get solved. However, in the knockout phase, where each game is a final, you need the depth to be instant. The depth player needs to hit the ground running and the team should not miss a beat.

Ineista is injured, no problem.......oh wait a minute, we don’t have a vice for Ineista.

That is lack of instant depth.

A campaign can be ruined by some hurdle if a team lacks instant replacement, and no team will have vices for ALL their players, but the more and better they have, the more they will score in this category.

3- Mentality:

As opposed to the lack of anything resembling mentality in Inter’s team at the moment, the 2010 Inter epitomized this category. This is the spirit of the sport, balls and everything else.

It is not enough to be better, the confidence and will to succeed is as much of a factor. Some players are simply engines of passion and they end up serving their team better than the supposed lethargic maestro.

Simply put, this is the psychological factor of the team. Their mental health, as well the bravery and confidence of the team. Hell, I lived in a ghetto my early life and saw a good number of fights, not to mention the ones I participated on. And I cannot count the number of times a shorter smaller guys beat the shit out of the bigger guy.

Sometimes you are so big you can sit on your foe, but know that some kids will not hesitate at poking your eyes out and EATING them. A cowardly giant is as effective as blunt instrument, but it is heavier and you can’t carry it to hit people with.

Brass balls weigh more than diamond earrings.

4- Tactics:

You have the pieces, they are psyched up and ready to go, then you bring in fraking Maradona to conduct the charge. What you get, you get nothing.

In a direct knockout match, the tactical approach is as important as the other categories, if not more so. Simply put, the well oiled machine can dissect the toughest of iron, and the multitude of tin. Look at the Mongolian invasion, and football is no different.

This category is all about the coaches, their ability to conduct, and their ability to lead. It is about the discipline they force, and the plan they enforce.
The Italians have long been masters of this part of the game, but as the sport globalized more and more emphasis on tactics have became the norm. And while there are different approaches (this is football after all, not baseball) the objective is to win.

**********************************************************

Those 4 qualities are something a champion MUST have to win I argue, and I will use them to analyze the champion’s league last 16 teams.

Keep in touch with my future posts, in the meantime discuss

Discussion Questions

just to get the ball rolling. please answer at least one of these.

What do you think is the most important quality of the top 4?

Do you think I am missing something?

How would you rate the winners of the last CL seasons (10 or less)?

Do you think any of these qualities are overrated?

Is Lord Spencer awesome or..............?

**********************************************************

Any suggestion are appreciated What Makes a CL Champion 2222139670
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Post by the xcx Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:56 pm

Luck plays a role in the knockouts not just, to be able to score lucky goals or take your chances but also with drawing an opposition.


Last edited by The xcx on Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by rwo power Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:57 pm

I think mentality is the most important thing, otherwise you would never see weaker teams winning against stronger ones. Second is tactics (think Greece in Euro 2004). Individual quality of the players comes only after these points IMO. Of course it helps if you have a stable teams and depth, but you can overcome a lot of things with the right mentality and proper tactics.
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Post by billionmillion Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:57 pm

Lord Spencer is deceived
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:00 pm

The xcx wrote:Luck plays a roll in the knockouts not just, to be able to score lucky goals or take your chances but also with drawing an opposition.

Indeed it does, but it something that each and every champion have.

I did not include it because I find it impossible to quantify or give rating for it to any team.
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Post by Le Samourai Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:07 pm

1.The most important quality is easily mentality, I mean look at Mourinhio's Inter...they were arguably lacking in 2 of the categories outlined and they still pulled through because of theri champion's mentality. For further evidence refer to any international competition won by italy or Germany :coffee: Very Happy

2.I think you're missing Luck.There's an element of luck to any winner.....would love to explain further but can't really ATM.

3.Instant Depth is somewhat overrated since......IMO it isn't always necessary.I mean there are teams in History that have exhibited the capabilty to go far in competitions with absolutely no depth.......Liverpool,Millan to an extent, Barca.....it's important but not deciding.

4.I admit......... you're pretty awesome.

Lastly one member of the team must have direct blood relations to Podolski.......familial ties to Callejon or Sarabia...........and be impervious to deceit at the hands of Xavi.

All members of the team must avoid the diet and training patterns of Obehsenel Meesi.




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Post by Lord Spencer Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:43 pm

ragbirjosh wrote:1.The most important quality is easily mentality, I mean look at Mourinhio's Inter...they were arguably lacking in 2 of the categories outlined and they still pulled through because of theri champion's mentality. For further evidence refer to any international competition won by italy or Germany What Makes a CL Champion 2859867778 Very Happy

2.I think you're missing Luck.There's an element of luck to any winner.....would love to explain further but can't really ATM.

3.Instant Depth is somewhat overrated since......IMO it isn't always necessary.I mean there are teams in History that have exhibited the capabilty to go far in competitions with absolutely no depth.......Liverpool,Millan to an extent, Barca.....it's important but not deciding.

4.I admit......... you're pretty awesome.

Lastly one member of the team must have direct blood relations to Podolski.......familial ties to Callejon or Sarabia...........and be impervious to deceit at the hands of Xavi.

All members of the team must avoid the diet and training patterns of Obehsenel Meesi.





I agree with Luck as a quality teams need. It is like the mysterious fifth quality that you can't positively quantify.

While all the others you can rate to a reasonable degree.

As for Instant Depth, I think it is the least prominent of the qualities, but when you need it it plays an important role. Sort of like a the rock in chess, it is the least useful at the beginning but when you need it, you wish you have it.
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Post by rwo power Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:47 pm

I think rating mentality isn't exactly easy, either.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:49 pm

You forgot the most important one.... luck.
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:52 pm

rwo power wrote:I think rating mentality isn't exactly easy, either.

I will try to do it by looking at the team's matches, see how they performed when a man down or two goals down and such.

Also, the group stages are important as well as the home effect.

One thing I know for sure is that a good GK always improves the mentality of the team, and that is something that can be rated. Another thing is the individual mentality of the teams members. For example, Zannetti have always had a strong mentality, while Bonera is as weak as a bottle empty What Makes a CL Champion 2222139670 . I am sure the empty bottles are quite obvious.
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Post by Grande_Milano Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:52 pm

Squad+Coach+"The time is now"

If you look at Inter 2009-2010, even before Mou they had like top 4-5 squad in Europe, but lacked that final polishing.
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:53 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:You forgot the most important one.... luck.

Troll harder next time BC.

I am on to you tongue

:dance:
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Post by Blackmore. Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:53 pm

Fantastic read, I'll be looking forward to the rest of the thread. :king:
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Post by Blackmore. Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:54 pm

How do I positive rep you?
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Post by billionmillion Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:56 pm

1- Winning Eleven
2- Instant Depth
3- Mentality
4- Tactics
5- Luck
6- Messi
7- Platini
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:00 pm

billionmillion wrote:1- Winning Eleven
2- Instant Depth
3- Mentality
4- Tactics
5- Luck
6- Messi
7- Platini

I think by putting Messi there, you make an interesting point.

Star performances like Kaka's and Pirlo's in 2007 and Xavi's and Messi's last year.

Not sure how that is different from Winning Eleven.
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Post by rwo power Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:01 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
rwo power wrote:I think rating mentality isn't exactly easy, either.
I will try to do it by looking at the team's matches, see how they performed when a man down or two goals down and such.
That's a good point indeed.

Lord Spencer wrote:Also, the group stages are important as well as the home effect.
Home/Away is always a very big point. IMO the CL 2012 is very likely Bayern's if they just make it to the final somehow.

Lord Spencer wrote:One thing I know for sure is that a good GK always improves the mentality of the team, and that is something that can be rated.
That's true. Schalke's run last season was pretty much owed to Neuer's talent and nerves of steel.

Lord Spencer wrote:Another thing is the individual mentality of the teams members. For example, Zannetti have always had a strong mentality, while Bonera is as weak as a bottle empty What Makes a CL Champion 2222139670 . I am sure the empty bottles are quite obvious.
LOL. +1 for the Trap quote Very Happy And yeah, absolutely agreed. Still it is difficult to put some rating number to it.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:03 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:You forgot the most important one.... luck.

Troll harder next time BC.

I am on to you tongue

:dance:

I'm serious lol. I'd rather my team be lucky than good, if i had to make that choice.
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Post by rwo power Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:04 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:I think by putting Messi there, you make an interesting point.
Star performances like Kaka's and Pirlo's in 2007 and Xavi's and Messi's last year.
Not sure how that is different from Winning Eleven.
On the other hand, there are always stars that don't perform, even though you would have expected it from them. But that goes probably with the mentality point again.
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Post by jibers Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:20 pm

Officiating is another one. Bayern in 10 and the refs almost screwing inter in the camp nou!
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Post by Grande_Milano Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:24 am

lol jibers what kind of bet it was?
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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:00 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:You forgot the most important one.... luck.

Troll harder next time BC.

I am on to you tongue

What Makes a CL Champion 3920004554

I'm serious lol. I'd rather my team be lucky than good, if i had to make that choice.

But how does a team get lucky. I think that luck in the end favors the better team in all those qualities. Luck will not favor a mentally weak team, or a tactical disaster, or a team with no plan B, or a team that plainly sucks.

If two teams are equal in everything then and only then will luck be the deciding factor, and in that instance you can say that Team A was luckier than Team B (Milan vs Liverpool), (Chelsea vs United).

Penalties in general is where luck is.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:04 am

Well if you could become lucky then everyone would be lucky, right? I agree that you can't quantify it, but getting no offside calls against you, getting the penalties you deserve and no getting undeserved penalties, getting the right cards made against you... these all make or break a CL campaign regardless of how good, motivated, mentally strong you are.
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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:13 am

I agree, which is why a challenge based system should be implemented in football.

Video technology FTW
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Post by kiranr Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:23 am

I would say luck gets evened out over a cycle for any top team.

If we assume a top team has a cycle of 5 years, then that team will win atleast 3-4 trophies during that period including 2 major ones. CL is an incredibly difficult competition to remain consistent especially due to the knock-out nature of it. But since it happens every year, you can say luck gets evened out if you have a top, stable team for about 4-5 years.

WC is a lot more difficult as it happens only every 4 years. Luck plays a major role in WC and then teams have to wait for 4 years to compete again by which time your team will have changed significantly.

As Spencer put it, challenge system will do wonders for the game because the players are the ones who know what actually happened. 2 challenges per game will not affect the nature of the game or will not stop the flow of the game.

Out of the criteria that you have put out Spencer, i think tactics is the most important. The best example is Greece!
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