Is Al Pacino too good to play DM?

alexjanosik wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

The Franchise wrote:I prefer Thiago to"replace" Xavi. I was suspect at first because he is a risk taker and dare devil, but his pass completion rate is so high and add to the fact once he gets a little older and wiser he will pick his moments even better.

Busquets is "too good" to be limited to short easy passes and never really making a mark in the final third, however he has the perfect mindset for it. I can say from personal experience, being a DM, its very hard not to try and do things you are very capable off just so you can play an easier pass and get things moving quicker. He has the perfect mentality for it. He can do other stuff, but he chooses not to.

Why I wouldnt want him to play further forward? He doesnt have the quickness and tightness of turn to get out of tight situations like Xavi or even Thiago.

Thats not to say he is completely devoid of that ability, I remember a game against Villarreal in which he did some amazing things and totally ripped Senna.

Its not a knock on him, its just Thiago is better at those sorts of things.

The little I have seen of Sergi Roberto, he seems to be a little bit more of a runner and mover. I dont know if he will ever be a single holding player, but at this point im guessing.

I think in many other teams, Busi would play further forward. But for us and what we have, I prefer not.

dani
The question was not whether Barca fans prefer him to play DM?It was whether Busquets is too good to be playing DM?
Some might have misunderstood the question.

Also why do you say that he doesnt have the quickness or tightness of turn to get out of turn situations.
I think he is brilliant in tight situations.Has ridiculous close control and can only be stripped of the ball by fouling.He earns quite a lot of fouls this way.

My mistake, I did read that at first but I went off course while talking about the point.

Anyway, your question is hard to answer.

Is he too good to play DM? For who? It all depends on his teammates.

I dont think I said he doesnt have quickness and tightness of turn, I just feel there would be better options to play further forward because some are better at this.

To answer your question, it depends on his teammates.

Let me rephrase the question dani.
How many DM have you seen with his skill level and technique?
Frankly I havent seen any and its not even close.
Another question.
How many CM's can you name right now who have more skill and ability(or comparable) than Busquets?
I can name Xavi,Iniesta,Thiago,Pirlo,Modric,Banega.Might have missed a couple more but thats about it.
So to my mind its not dependent on his teammates at all.When you have the likes of Anderson,Khedira,Arteta,Cleverly,Stankovic,Seedorf(the latter 2 in the twilight of their careers but still),Lampard,Ramires,Carrick etc playing CM big clubs I cant help but think that Busquets too should play higher up.As he is better than all of them.I dont see how teammates come into it.
Dont you think he can be a better CM for United or Chelsea or Milan or Inter than the ones they have right now irrespective of teammates?

Also I dont agree necessarily that his agility should be a problem?
Its an extreme case but how agile is Riquelme?
Similarly Pirlo.These players arent particularly agile but they do well in advanced positions.Pilro played a bit deep at Milan but still higher than Busquets and at Juve he is playing fairly high up.Agility doesnt seem to be a problem.

Am a bit surprised by the responses.Expected a few more to agree with me.
Maybe I am just overrating his abilities.

How many DM´s with his ability on the ball? Probably none.

Sure he has more ability on the ball and the second reel of names you said, so yes for those teams he could do it. But I consider none of those players good enough to be starting centermids for elite teams.

So, I do still feel it depends on his teammates.

Let me go further.

If I had him in my squad, had a runner and hard worker like say Essien or Ramieres in my squad. I would pair them together, Busquets doing construction work deep, the hard runner closing down and chasing and a number 10 type player in front of both of them. Liken the position to Xabi Alonso´s at Madrid.

But I wouldnt play another player who plays the holding role and I would insist on playing a number 10 type player.

So, I wouldnt have say Makelele in his prime with Busquets playing further forward with say Iniesta. I dont think its his Busquets) best position and while he could probably play it I wouldnt consider it ideal.

Agility a problem? Well I think Pirlo´s best work has come deep, where he hasnt had to navigate heavy traffic. Busquets I think would be the same. Both could play further forward, but I dont think it is his best work.

Busi´s moves are great, his assortments of drag backs and feints I have stolen for himself. However, those moves are all stand still moves where he uses his brain and fool the opponent. He would use the opponent running at him to close him down and that momentum against that opponent. For example here.




Both those moves are what I love about him and what I most admire, those are just excellent moves that hardly any player can pull off like him.

However, these are different to moves playing further forward where you have to initiate the action more.

Like some of Xavi´s moves, they are different, he can "attack" the defence more. He can initate more, whereas Busquets requires your hard work and closing down to pinish you. Xavi does this too, but he can also force something.



Its hard to explain and be clear and of course, if the players you named can play centermid then why on earth couldnt Busquets. But as I said above, I still feel its dependant on his teammates and how they play.

Similar to what I was getting at Dani. The exact example you've highlighted (Alonso) is the one I always use too. I think he could definitely play a similar role to Xabi Alonso, but if you have this deep-lying passer, the best way to balance your midfield is by then having a runner (Khedira) and a creative player in the final third who does little defending (Ozil). I can't really see Barca using this dynamic though, and I think that is the sort of midfield role he'd play at pretty much any other club. We are rarein that we can have a player like Busi as our holding mid. In other teams which lack the control of possession, high line etc he would find it difficult to be as effective. People often use this as a dumb argument to undermine his play... it doesn't make him a worse player, its just football. Different players work better at different clubs. Busi was pretty much born to play this role.

Arquitecto wrote:
Xavi is not the heir to Pep, Busquets is.

Great post arqui. Thanks for the repeated mentions. I think this line is the essence of it all. I remember some time back some of us including myself had proposed this idea that one reason why Pep has replaced a conventional DM like Yaya with Busquets in the starting lineup is because he sees himself in Busquets. Although I didn't see the original dream team playing, based on whatever knowledge I have gathered by reading articles and various posts at these forums, I can say that Xavi is far beyond anything Pep ever was. Hence saying Xavi is Pep's heir is not a fair comment. He may have started off his career like that but he will end it at an altogether different level.

The Franchise wrote:I prefer Thiago to"replace" Xavi.

dani, please explain in detail why you think Thiago is better than Fabregas as a potential replacement for Xavi in future.

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:I prefer Thiago to"replace" Xavi.

dani, please explain in detail why you think Thiago is better than Fabregas as a potential replacement for Xavi in future.

Well because right now, Cesc is playing like a second striker. Dont come to the ball often, runs away from it, looks to get into goal scoring positions rather then construction positions and while Thiago doesnt play like Xavi stylistically, Cesc is nothing like him.

Will Cesc improve his movement and not like like the lost sheep he has at times? I think so. But Thiago seems more natural to the position now.

I dont really like the tag of replacement, all players are different, but right now Thiago seems much closer to that kind of deeper, dictating role then Cesc.

perfectly explained.


Regarding OP:
I think both Busquets and Thiago could develop into the Xavi role, but Thiago is too offensive while Busquets is perhaps too defensive.

Thiago likes to get forward more, and is quite direct. He's more daring, and more willing to lose possession. His brazilian-ness causes him to take risks and go forward. Busquets is almost the opposite of that. He will always look for the high percentage pass, or the "easy pass" and always knows where it is.
What Thiago lacks is keeping possession and tempo control. What Busquets lacks is going forward - though he's been getting alot better at this lately.

Overall, I think the key to being Xavi's successor is situational awareness on the pitch, and I think Busquets' abilities are a better fit for this role.
Thiago is a jack of all trades, in the sense that he's great at everything - shooting, passing, even defending. But to be the engine of Barcelona, you have to possess a very unique ability. I think Busquets may be the closest to possessing this ability.
Anyhow, he would still need to work on his playmaking/final pass skills to truly become like Xavi, but sometimes those things are innate. They cannot be taught and replicated.

Thiago is closer to being a playmaker like Xavi, but Busquets is closer to being a tempo controller like Xavi.

One thing is clear, there will be no heir to Xavi. Barcelona will adapt.



P.S. I read some interesting facts about Thiago's passing stats somewhere...I think he's kicking ass this season.

The Franchise wrote:
Well because right now, Cesc is playing like a second striker. Dont come to the ball often, runs away from it, looks to get into goal scoring positions rather then construction positions and while Thiago doesnt play like Xavi stylistically, Cesc is nothing like him.

Will Cesc improve his movement and not like like the lost sheep he has at times? I think so. But Thiago seems more natural to the position now.

I dont really like the tag of replacement, all players are different, but right now Thiago seems much closer to that kind of deeper, dictating role then Cesc.

Fair enough. However Cesc has played deeper in the past and he used to play well there. So I think if we start using him in that role he should be able to pick it up well. Of course no one can be Xavi.

But he isnt even coming to the ball in his current position, too busy running into goalscoring positions.

I dont see it being about "using him in that role" he has the chance to show the ability now, in fact he needs to show it, and he refuses to.

The Franchise wrote:But he isnt even coming to the ball in his current position, too busy running into goalscoring positions.

I dont see it being about "using him in that role" he has the chance to show the ability now, in fact he needs to show it, and he refuses to.

Interesting dani. Perhaps he is playing as per the instructions of Pep. Maybe we will get to understand things better in a few months time.

I think the DM spot suits him really well, he has good defensive set of skills, his ball possession and keeping is admirable, passes great aswell but obviously not as great as Xavi (who does anyways..., also I see Tiago taking more of Iniesta's role rather then Xavi, as he has a good "killer instinct" and likes to head to the goal (putting in mind he CAN score nicely) off the current squad, the player who could replace Xavi the most in my opinion would be Cesc 1st then Tiago, not sure many ppl would agree but thats how i see it.