Re: The Lord Spencer Serie A Thread: Round 1

[The Franchise]

Dont know why this was negged rep, even if you dissagree with some of it give the guy credit because it was a nice read, exactly right length and pretty accurate while giving anyone who missed a game (or all) a nice summary.

Kudos.

On the game I saw.


I think Hernanes was the only player Milan marked well, simply because they always have numbers in the center. Out wide, the fullbacks came up time and time again and gave 2 v 1´s which caused Milan problem.

Milan play very centerally in their attack and in turn are prone to defensive issues down their flanks. Didnt help Nesta especially and Silva had bad games.

While Hernanes was marked very wll and barely got involved, he was the only one because the deeper midfielders (for both teams actually) had a ton of time and space on the ball. Though credit Hernandes, because I am sure it was his good cross which Cisse converted from.

Overall, I found it a very entertaining match to watch and learnt some good lessons about both sides, but Milan especially.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Dont know why this was negged rep, even if you dissagree with some of it give the guy credit because it was a nice read, exactly right length and pretty accurate while giving anyone who missed a game (or all) a nice summary.

In a place where a 9/11 remembrance thread gets neg repped its hardly suprising.

[The Franchise]

It did?

Disgusting....SMH

[chinomaster182]

Great roundup, kudos

Just a comment on Inter. I disagree the 3 man backline is at fault for the loss or that is was particularly leaky, 2 of the goals were long range efforts and the other 2 were just bad defending. Also Zarate had a pretty bad game, but tbf the whole team was struggling very bad on the first half, maybe Gasperini pulled the trigger a little to quick on him.

3-4-3 is a very difficult formation to play and Palermo had a great game, i guess i'm biased but i would say its to soon to chastise Inter or Gasperini.

[The Franchise]

I dont think anything is wrong with the 343 aslong as the opponant doesnt play with just 1 striker because then your in trouble.

But from what I read on goal.com, Zanetti was playing leftcenterback of a 3 and he was at fault for a goal.

I also read other players were playing out of position.

I like the 343 against teams that play 2 up front.

[Lord Spencer]

Dont know why this was negged rep, even if you dissagree with some of it give the guy credit because it was a nice read, exactly right length and pretty accurate while giving anyone who missed a game (or all) a nice summary.

Kudos.

On the game I saw.


I think Hernanes was the only player Milan marked well, simply because they always have numbers in the center. Out wide, the fullbacks came up time and time again and gave 2 v 1´s which caused Milan problem.

Milan play very centerally in their attack and in turn are prone to defensive issues down their flanks. Didnt help Nesta especially and Silva had bad games.


While Hernanes was marked very wll and barely got involved, he was the only one because the deeper midfielders (for both teams actually) had a ton of time and space on the ball. Though credit Hernandes, because I am sure it was his good cross which Cisse converted from.

Overall, I found it a very entertaining match to watch and learnt some good lessons about both sides, but Milan especially.

I am sure Pep was watching the game too. I hope Milan played badly intentionally to lul Barca into a false sense of security.

Sucks that Barca always go into big games with fires in their eyes.

@the neg repping;
I was really surprised the 9/11 thread got negged. Giu, was very pissed off.

@chinomaster;

I agree that Inter and Gasp should not be flamed just yet. This is one game, but Inter did play badly. Nagatomo and Jhonathan didn't seem sure what their role was, and Zanetti was unsure of what to do. It is good to see problems that you need to fix, which is why I suggested that Gasp either scratches the whole plan, or explain the plan better.

[leemhuis]

Very exciting championship. Milan have one point superior to Inter.

[The Franchise]

I dont even want to talk about the 9/11 repping to be honest. I mean, its annoying and pathetic to do so in threads like this but in the end, its only football.

To do so in a thread like that, its disgusting and while my opinion of some posters arent the highest even I didnt think anyone here was that low.

Anyway, moving on. I am sure Pep was watching and probably noted alot, I sure gained alot from that game.

I 100% agree with your last line. They had a preseason and if players are still looking lost, soon the time will come to get worried. Sure its a new system but it isnt rocket science. Either the players need to get to grips with it fast, or he needs to forget it before its too late.

[leemhuis]

Could not find PSV shield PSV is my Holland team.

[Camurrìa.Sto.Stronzo]

Very exciting championship. Milan have one point superior to Inter.

Juventus has 3

But then again, what's the point in bragging now lol?

[leemhuis]

Inter will be eliminated in CL group. Milan will succeed and maybe come first in group.

[DeviAngel]

GREAT READ !!! ppl should stop the neg reg and start posting and discussing ffs show some respect for what other ppl do for u .....

I loved this weekend and I loved this Juve show ... Did u know that Parma had 0 shots on goal ?


btw his name is Lichtsteiner

[chinomaster182]

I 100% agree with your last line. They had a preseason and if players are still looking lost, soon the time will come to get worried. Sure its a new system but it isnt rocket science. Either the players need to get to grips with it fast, or he needs to forget it before its too late.

You might not need a phd to understand and use it but i disagree its just a simple thing of explaining it better, such a complicated system needs to be discussed in fine detail and needs to be practiced a lot.

Football author Simon Kuper put it brilliantly in his book "Football against the enemy", let me quote a small excerpt from it:

Dutch football works. It seems that if you let players think for themselves they win soccer matches. Over the last 20 years, no other small nation (and of the large nations only Germany and Argentina) has won as much as Holland. No one else has played as gloriously. It is precisely because the Dutch talk so much that they can play the way they do. A player must understand his role. He has to know when to overlap or to cover for the man in front of him, when to leave his man and chase the ball. British players play the British brand of 4-4-2 from childhood on, and so they have little to learn about it. By the age of 20 a British fullback knows, for instance, that he must cover his center backs when there is an attack over the other wing. The system is simple. When he has the ball, he can always hit it into space over the top of the opposition's defense, and when he is in trouble he can hit it into touch. But if the player is called upon to play in a new way, or to do more difficult things--to keep the ball in the team for instance--he has to learn again. He can learn a lot from just playing the new system, but not enough. One Genoa manager tried to make his team play total football like Ajax, and failed. Vant Schip commented: "To play the Ajax system you have to undestand it, and especially talk about it a lot."

The total football ideal is so romantic and philosophical, Rinus Michels and Johann Cruyff planned ahead at Barcelona so La Masia could train kids from the youngest age possible how to play it. The 3-4-3 sides have been little and remembered epically like the 70's Ajax or maybe current day Barcelona.

None of the Inter players to my knowledge have ever played 3-4-3 professionally, of course they were trash today. Signing Gian Piero Gasperini should be understood as a very long term project, if he is forced to use a more standard formation then Inter might be better off with another coach who specialises in standard formations.

[leemhuis]

It is very nice to hear about Holland, but really we have not won very much. When was this statement written? France has won more and also Spain and Italy recently.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Dutch football refers to a style and not a nationality in that context.

[chinomaster182]

It is very nice to hear about Holland, but really we have not won very much. When was this statement written? France has won more and also Spain and Italy recently.

1994, some time ago. But really Kuper always talks about it in perspective. Holland is a nation of 11 million people and it seems that for decades now it is punching above its weight. Even last world cup they reached the finals against all odds.

[The Franchise]

I 100% agree with your last line. They had a preseason and if players are still looking lost, soon the time will come to get worried. Sure its a new system but it isnt rocket science. Either the players need to get to grips with it fast, or he needs to forget it before its too late.

You might not need a phd to understand and use it but i disagree its just a simple thing of explaining it better, such a complicated system needs to be discussed in fine detail and needs to be practiced a lot.

Football author Simon Kuper put it brilliantly in his book "Football against the enemy", let me quote a small excerpt from it:

Dutch football works. It seems that if you let players think for themselves they win soccer matches. Over the last 20 years, no other small nation (and of the large nations only Germany and Argentina) has won as much as Holland. No one else has played as gloriously. It is precisely because the Dutch talk so much that they can play the way they do. A player must understand his role. He has to know when to overlap or to cover for the man in front of him, when to leave his man and chase the ball. British players play the British brand of 4-4-2 from childhood on, and so they have little to learn about it. By the age of 20 a British fullback knows, for instance, that he must cover his center backs when there is an attack over the other wing. The system is simple. When he has the ball, he can always hit it into space over the top of the opposition's defense, and when he is in trouble he can hit it into touch. But if the player is called upon to play in a new way, or to do more difficult things--to keep the ball in the team for instance--he has to learn again. He can learn a lot from just playing the new system, but not enough. One Genoa manager tried to make his team play total football like Ajax, and failed. Vant Schip commented: "To play the Ajax system you have to undestand it, and especially talk about it a lot."

The total football ideal is so romantic and philosophical, Rinus Michels and Johann Cruyff planned ahead at Barcelona so La Masia could train kids from the youngest age possible how to play it. The 3-4-3 sides have been little and remembered epically like the 70's Ajax or maybe current day Barcelona.

None of the Inter players to my knowledge have ever played 3-4-3 professionally, of course they were trash today. Signing Gian Piero Gasperini should be understood as a very long term project, if he is forced to use a more standard formation then Inter might be better off with another coach who specialises in standard formations.

But as I said, they had a preseason. That is ample time to get a handle on it.

Take a look at Barca the preseason of Pep´s first season. It wasnt a new system, but actually something harder, a different style. Sure Barca played a possession style before, but the differences he introduced were immense. The 343 is less then that, its just a system, preseason is enough that players shouldnt be confused about their roles.

The midfield and forwards, if playing in their normal positions I dont think are doing anything they havent done before.

I think maybe the flank players Jonathon, Nagamoto, Zannetti, Obi have to adapt to the changes and I think the centerbacks need to also. But the rest arent doing anything they havent done, if they are playing their normal positions.

Its not a entire style of philsosphy thats changing, just a formation.

[leemhuis]

We having 16 million people much more than Uruguay. Uruguay have only 3 million and a haf and have 2 World Cup. We have ben not lucky. We should have 2 or 3 World Cup.

[chinomaster182]

I 100% agree with your last line. They had a preseason and if players are still looking lost, soon the time will come to get worried. Sure its a new system but it isnt rocket science. Either the players need to get to grips with it fast, or he needs to forget it before its too late.

You might not need a phd to understand and use it but i disagree its just a simple thing of explaining it better, such a complicated system needs to be discussed in fine detail and needs to be practiced a lot.

Football author Simon Kuper put it brilliantly in his book "Football against the enemy", let me quote a small excerpt from it:

Dutch football works. It seems that if you let players think for themselves they win soccer matches. Over the last 20 years, no other small nation (and of the large nations only Germany and Argentina) has won as much as Holland. No one else has played as gloriously. It is precisely because the Dutch talk so much that they can play the way they do. A player must understand his role. He has to know when to overlap or to cover for the man in front of him, when to leave his man and chase the ball. British players play the British brand of 4-4-2 from childhood on, and so they have little to learn about it. By the age of 20 a British fullback knows, for instance, that he must cover his center backs when there is an attack over the other wing. The system is simple. When he has the ball, he can always hit it into space over the top of the opposition's defense, and when he is in trouble he can hit it into touch. But if the player is called upon to play in a new way, or to do more difficult things--to keep the ball in the team for instance--he has to learn again. He can learn a lot from just playing the new system, but not enough. One Genoa manager tried to make his team play total football like Ajax, and failed. Vant Schip commented: "To play the Ajax system you have to undestand it, and especially talk about it a lot."

The total football ideal is so romantic and philosophical, Rinus Michels and Johann Cruyff planned ahead at Barcelona so La Masia could train kids from the youngest age possible how to play it. The 3-4-3 sides have been little and remembered epically like the 70's Ajax or maybe current day Barcelona.

None of the Inter players to my knowledge have ever played 3-4-3 professionally, of course they were trash today. Signing Gian Piero Gasperini should be understood as a very long term project, if he is forced to use a more standard formation then Inter might be better off with another coach who specialises in standard formations.

But as I said, they had a preseason. That is ample time to get a handle on it.

Take a look at Barca the preseason of Pep´s first season. It wasnt a new system, but actually something harder, a different style. Sure Barca played a possession style before, but the differences he introduced were immense. The 343 is less then that, its just a system, preseason is enough that players shouldnt be confused about their roles.

The midfield and forwards, if playing in their normal positions I dont think are doing anything they havent done before.

I think maybe the flank players Jonathon, Nagamoto, Zannetti, Obi have to adapt to the changes and I think the centerbacks need to also. But the rest arent doing anything they havent done, if they are playing their normal positions.

Its not a entire style of philsosphy thats changing, just a formation.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic, from what i've philosophised about Football and the little experience i have leading a team, i think 6 months are needed at the very least to start being cohesive and start working well for Inter.

Barcelona works now because the majority have passed though La Masia, they have been very very specific on their formation and how they want their players to approach football, futhermore they have been playing together for years and years now. Guardiola might be the ultimate coach on total football, i think by now he has even surpassed Johann Cruyff.

[chinomaster182]

We having 16 million people much more than Uruguay. Uruguay have only 3 million and a haf and have 2 World Cup. We have ben not lucky. We should have 2 or 3 World Cup.

Well yes, Uruguay have also been outstanding, even though their World Cup titles are prehistory now . I bet you can't guess who the most overachieving football nation on the earth is. I recommend you read the book "Soccernomics" for that little gem.

[The Franchise]

Well fine. I am not saying Inter should be a well oiled machine, not at all. We have seen in the past it can take 2 seasons for a team to really get it.

But, there is a difference between that and players not understanding the basics.

From what I read (because other then the supercup I have not seen) the players look confused in their roles and dont know what they should be doing. By now, they should know whats going on.

Yes, your right about Barca however understand that there was a heck of alot of new things even the La Masia guys had to learn. They had to learn about collective, organised presssing which takes alot of time. They never did that before, that was new. All 11 players (even Valdes) had to learn an entire new thing.

The forwards had to learn how to move when the midfield had the ball in certain positions. They had to know when to come towards the ball, when to come away from it. That was new.

The fullbacks had to recognise when to make width, had to see what the forward came inside they became wingers.

The defence had to learn to split and become fullbacks when Valdes had to ball, the DM had to drop in to centerback, the fullbacks had to become wingers again.

All these things take time and growing up in La Masia alone wont cut it.

All those things add up to more then learning just 343 in my book.

Also, it doesnt explain how Keita, Dani Alves, Marquez, Henry, Etoo (all of whom didnt come from La Masia) had to learn so quickly. And with the exception of Henry, the other 4 mastered it better then many La Masia players.

[Lord Spencer]

I think Gaspirini's 3-4-3 is more than formation. From watching Genoa last season, I can see that his team play in a distinctive 3-4-3, with a very shape shifting Midfield. His wing backs were not Full backs converted to the wings, but Midfielders converted to wing backs. This gave the side much needed creativity in the middle.

Right now, it either looks like Inter are playing with five Defensive players, or with 2 wings that don't really know what to do. I think this is also a matter of Gaspirini not having the players to make his formation. We will see in the next weeks what Gasp will do. Hopefully, it s going to be Gasp-worthy (get the pun)..

[The Franchise]

Intresting. But to my knowledge, he has used Nagatomo, Zanetti, Jonathon and Nagatomo. I assume Maicon will be used also in this position. Who else is there to use?

Other then Obi, those are all defenders. So I have to ask, if what your saying is true, he is forcing his formation on the wrong players more then I suspected.

[chinomaster182]

Actually now that we're talking about Rafa Marquez i'm remembering the 3-4-3 Mexico used for South Africa last summer. They looked shaky for 3-5 matches and then they really got it and started hitting all cylinders. It was actually in a remarkably quick time, the team only trained for a month and a half or so before the tournament.

Teams being awesome very quickly happens now that we're thinking of it, i have in mind Inters 2010 treble season. But still i think it wouldn't be a big failure if Inter aren't getting the hang of it for the next 3 matches or so.

[chinomaster182]

Intresting. But to my knowledge, he has used Nagatomo, Zanetti, Jonathon and Nagatomo. I assume Maicon will be used also in this position. Who else is there to use?

Other then Obi, those are all defenders. So I have to ask, if what your saying is true, he is forcing his formation on the wrong players more then I suspected.

Well... Maicon, Jonathan, Zanetti and Nagatomo are wingbacks who are used to running through the pitch. Jonathan looked very at home in his position, he looked like an on form Maicon.

[The Franchise]

Well I agree with that, its not panic time yet or even close. I hope he stick to it because I believe it can work. I am just a little dissapointed that more hasnt stuck with the players at this time though.

As I said, I didnt expect well oiled machine, but I did expect players understand where to be and where to move witha understanding what role they need to play.

I remember that Mexico side, I would go as far as to say that was even more impressive because I remember they had the ability to change from a 3 man defence to a 4 man defence within the flow of the game and do it perfectly.

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