Watching England Play...

BeautifulGame wrote:Ofcourse if u dont know any argument to prove u not attack the other posters as dense:facepalm:

Mancini played Milner ahead of Johnson because he is consistent not because he just because he is defensive.Milner was one of the best midfielders in the PL the season before unlike Jonhson who is only good as an impact sub.

It seems u dont even watched City to comment on Johnson let alone comment on downing based on watching Villa.


I certainly dont need to act like a wise guy when i am arguing with someone who believes Wilshere is a better player than Gerrard.

No, not just other posters, just you.

No, Milner was played because of his defensive qualities.

How is Milner being good the season before relevant? He was playing a different position first of all, but more importantly, who uses last season performances to choose this seasons line up?

I see you like living in the past though, what can I expect.

If you think Milner is a better player then Johnson, I literally am speachless.

So I decided to take a look into the stats and I have to admit that Johnson's stats for the little amount he has played slightly edge Downing's. That's on the whole though. There are certain aspects where Downing does a wee bit better.

And really, get your mind of 2005 Gerrard. He and Lampard are past it.
Finished, finito, khalas.

We all saw his declining contribution to liverpool, and are really sad it is happening. But aging is a fact of life. And don't go on about us not watching pool games. It is clear to everyone that Gerrard have declined. If you do not agree, then you criminally underrate the Gerrard of 3 years ago. His vision and all is still available, but Gerrard is also a physical player who relies on speed and movement.

Last year, his only Gerrard like performance was the one against Napoli. He barely made any notable contribution. In fact, you have five more Pool players making more to the team than him. Don't make fools of yourselves by over hyping a man in his decline; you only end up insulting his past achievements.

Wilshire was indeed better last season. Although certainly not better than a prime Gerrard.

Lord Spencer wrote:And really, get your mind of 2005 Gerrard. He and Lampard are past it.
Finished, finito, khalas.

We all saw his declining contribution to liverpool, and are really sad it is happening. But aging is a fact of life. And don't go on about us not watching pool games. It is clear to everyone that Gerrard have declined. If you do not agree, then you criminally underrate the Gerrard of 3 years ago. His vision and all is still available, but Gerrard is also a physical player who relies on speed and movement.

Last year, his only Gerrard like performance was the one against Napoli. He barely made any notable contribution. In fact, you have five more Pool players making more to the team than him. Don't make fools of yourselves by over hyping a man in his decline; you only end up insulting his past achievements.

Wilshire was indeed better last season. Although certainly not better than a prime Gerrard.

With his injuries and aging considered, I agree with both you and Franchise. However, let's not judge his current abilities based on his performances for Roy Hodgson. Yes there may have been a slight dip in his performances, but by no means is he completely finished.

engalnd won geez what more do u people want.

let me guess with the team england has u should be destroying teams 5 nil aye.

wilshere is injured anyway, leave capello alone til after the euros.

its not like theres an english coach thats close to being as good as capello.

cant wait to see en englishmen at the helm maybe one day

Aye, that Gerrard was shit when we did the double over Chelsea and absolutely battered United at Anfield...He started 19 league games only..He missed half the league ffs, and that half mostly was second one when we were great.

having said that, He is clearly poor man's Cleverly

poolsupporter wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:And really, get your mind of 2005 Gerrard. He and Lampard are past it.
Finished, finito, khalas.

We all saw his declining contribution to liverpool, and are really sad it is happening. But aging is a fact of life. And don't go on about us not watching pool games. It is clear to everyone that Gerrard have declined. If you do not agree, then you criminally underrate the Gerrard of 3 years ago. His vision and all is still available, but Gerrard is also a physical player who relies on speed and movement.

Last year, his only Gerrard like performance was the one against Napoli. He barely made any notable contribution. In fact, you have five more Pool players making more to the team than him. Don't make fools of yourselves by over hyping a man in his decline; you only end up insulting his past achievements.

Wilshire was indeed better last season. Although certainly not better than a prime Gerrard.

With his injuries and aging considered, I agree with both you and Franchise. However, let's not judge his current abilities based on his performances for Roy Hodgson. Yes there may have been a slight dip in his performances, but by no means is he completely finished.

I dont think he is finished either. I was afriad at one point he might be, but that is to underestimate him. I think he isnt done yet. But as said, to say he is at the level he was in his prime does his prime a disservice and at this stage in his career there is no shame in Wilshere being the better player.

Lord Spencer wrote:And really, get your mind of 2005 Gerrard. He and Lampard are past it.
Finished, finito, khalas.

We all saw his declining contribution to liverpool, and are really sad it is happening. But aging is a fact of life. And don't go on about us not watching pool games. It is clear to everyone that Gerrard have declined. If you do not agree, then you criminally underrate the Gerrard of 3 years ago. His vision and all is still available, but Gerrard is also a physical player who relies on speed and movement.

Last year, his only Gerrard like performance was the one against Napoli. He barely made any notable contribution. In fact, you have five more Pool players making more to the team than him. Don't make fools of yourselves by over hyping a man in his decline; you only end up insulting his past achievements.

Wilshire was indeed better last season. Although certainly not better than a prime Gerrard.

Yes not vintage Gerrard performances apart from Napoli match.But he was still very good most of last season when fit.As i already mentioned in another thread he was one of best player in both wins of United and Chlesea under Kenny.

He was also one of the best players for us under Hodgson he was in poor form the season before but not last season.And certainly not when fit last season.

Yes WIlshere was better than Gerrard last year but that doesnt make him a better player than Gerrard.He still has to prove that for more than one season to say he is better than Gerrard.

Oh and here are some stats:

Last season:
Keep in mind Gerrard played 21 games while Wilshere played 35

- Wilshere's passing was better than Gerrards by 10%. (84.38% Vs. 74.43%)

- In fewer games, they both had an equal number of tackles at 53. However, Wilshere edged the success rate by just over 4%.

- Wilshere had 56 interceptions in comparison to Gerrard's 40.

- Open play pass completion saw Wilshere at 86% success while Gerrard had 80%.

- Wilshere's dribbling stats were a lot better than Gerrard.

- Their crossing accuracy was equal.

- Gerrard had 10 assists compared to 6 by Wilshere.

- The total chances created by Gerrard were 53 while Wilshere had 60.

- Minuntes per chance created for Gerrard was 35 in comparison to Wilshere's 44.

- Gerrard had more goals and shots on target.

I'm not trying to imply much other than to say that Wilshere was better on the whole, but Gerrard is not completely useless just yet. I believe he still has a good amount to offer.

Note: These are just PL stats. (I don't have anything from Europe)

BeautifulGame wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:And really, get your mind of 2005 Gerrard. He and Lampard are past it.
Finished, finito, khalas.

We all saw his declining contribution to liverpool, and are really sad it is happening. But aging is a fact of life. And don't go on about us not watching pool games. It is clear to everyone that Gerrard have declined. If you do not agree, then you criminally underrate the Gerrard of 3 years ago. His vision and all is still available, but Gerrard is also a physical player who relies on speed and movement.

Last year, his only Gerrard like performance was the one against Napoli. He barely made any notable contribution. In fact, you have five more Pool players making more to the team than him. Don't make fools of yourselves by over hyping a man in his decline; you only end up insulting his past achievements.

Wilshire was indeed better last season. Although certainly not better than a prime Gerrard.

Yes not vintage Gerrard performances apart from Napoli match.But he was still very good most of last season when fit.As i already mentioned in another thread he was one of best player in both wins of United and Chlesea under Kenny.

He was also one of the best players for us under Hodgson he was in poor form the season before but not last season.And certainly not when fit last season.

Yes WIlshere was better than Gerrard last year but that doesnt make him a better player than Gerrard.He still has to prove that for more than one season to say he is better than Gerrard.

And why does he have to prove it for another season? Why this amount of time?

Is Wilshere going to decline and Gerrard finds the fountain of youth in this time?

I dont get that.

Sepi wrote:Aye, that Gerrard was shit when we did the double over Chelsea and absolutely battered United at Anfield...He started 19 league games only..He missed half the league ffs, and that half mostly was second one when we were great.

having said that, He is clearly poor man's Cleverly

I concur that the Chelsea game was a really good one for him. Both that and the Napoli game is where we can see true glimpses of his ability. But I am afraid form and consistency are missing, which comes when players start to decline.

Which we can see in the united game, where he lacked pace and only threatened United late in the game. You had five or six pool players that were better than him that game.

In no order;
Lucas
Kuyt
Suarez
Raul
Maxi
Skrtl

So that is six player who bossed more than Gerrard in that game, which I remember well.
In the other hand, Wilshire was the best or second best player in most of Arsenal's games last season.

And of course Gerrard is not finished yet, but I believe he should be saved for important games only, when his genius can be properly utilized instead of his form being wasted on Swansea. Just like Milan is doing with Seedorf.

Fountain of youth? He isnt 40 lol

He just has an injury problem..nothing to do with age

poolsupporter wrote:Oh and here are some stats:

Last season:
Keep in mind Gerrard played 21 games while Wilshere played 35

- Wilshere's passing was better than Gerrards by 10%. (84.38% Vs. 74.43%)

- In fewer games, they both had an equal number of tackles at 53. However, Wilshere edged the success rate by just over 4%.

- Wilshere had 56 interceptions in comparison to Gerrard's 40.

- Open play pass completion saw Wilshere at 86% success while Gerrard had 80%.

- Wilshere's dribbling stats were a lot better than Gerrard.

- Their crossing accuracy was equal.

- Gerrard had 10 assists compared to 6 by Wilshere.

- The total chances created by Gerrard were 53 while Wilshere had 60.

- Minuntes per chance created for Gerrard was 35 in comparison to Wilshere's 44.

- Gerrard had more goals and shots on target.

I'm not trying to imply much other than to say that Wilshere was better on the whole, but Gerrard is not completely useless just yet. I believe he still has a good amount to offer.

Note: These are just PL stats. (I don't have anything from Europe)

I dont think stats are a good idea seeing as both play a fairly different role in eaches team.

For example, I would expect Jack to have more accurate passing (he plays deeper and doesnt have to try as many risky ones), intercept more (he plays deeper and thus how more defensive players around him to help) and to have a higher tackle % ( for the same reason).

I would expect Gerrard to have more assists, he plays closer to goal and plays more final balls.

I would expect him to have more shots and more on target, again because of where he plays. He is a better shooter of the ball anyway.

I however would expect Gerrard have a higher total chances created, but then again, he missed alot more games. The mins per game seem to clear that up.

The dribbling stats tell us Jack is a better dribbler, dont need stats to tell us that.

I realise your not trying to imply anything anyway, I am just pointing out the limitatons.

cyberman wrote:Fountain of youth? He isnt 40 lol

He just has an injury problem..nothing to do with age

Over 30's struggle with coming back from injuries, more then young players.

Also add, for me, he has lost some physical ability with age (or perhaps injury, perhaps both) and thats where the fountain of youth comment comes from.

cmon guys first its complaints against playin barry and the likes in midfield yet use want players like gerrard and lampard back.

they are both done maybe not for the clubs but at international level they are finished, neither of them could produce for england while they were in there prime.

how is now while there in there decline gonna be any better.they had there chances its time to bring in wilshere,cleverly and give them the shot they deserve while lamps and gerrard sit in bench as very useful subs which they very well can be.

but that is all they should be subs either to replace an injured player or to close out the end of a big match where calm heads prevail

Does some people saying Gerrard was poor last year even realize where Gerrard played last season.He played as a CM similar position to Wilshere last season not as an AM like the season before.

@Franchise: All I was trying to do was just add some more information towards the comparison. My initial post was a little aggressive because a lot of people tend to state opinions as facts without actually watching the players week in and week out. I also agree stats just touch upon the surface of the entire story. They don't cover things like off the ball movement, etc.

Another thing I'd like to add is that Gerrard didn't always play in the hole last season. For quite a few games he started in the center. A commentator during our loss to United in the F.A Cup also mentioned how his loss of pace and aging as a whole has sort of forced managers to play him in a deeper role where he can control the game.

The other thing about last season that is worth mentioning is the level of players around him. Everyone in our squad had a good run of terrible games. Lucas was one of the few that maintained good consistency throughout the season. Both Kenny and Roy had played the likes of Meireles on the wing. Maxi didn't really shine through until we were at the tail end of the season. Kuyt, if you look at our game ratings on the old forum, often got some pretty low scores. Poulsen got starts in the first half of the season. Torres was in terrible form and sulky for most of the season.

When I went to look at the stats, I expected them to be a lot worse, but I think Gerrard did rather well last season considering the circumstances.

With that said though, Wilshere was indeed the better player.

BeautifulGame wrote:Does people even realize where Gerrard played last season.He played as a CM similar position to Wilshere last season not as an AM like the season before.

eiether way it shouldnt matter, gerrard has had his chance and has never been able to replicate his liverpool form for england, he and lamps have been major dissapointments there is no other way of lookin at them,

there time is done, wilshere not only deserves to be starting over gerrard but needs to be.

now is the time he is young, we all now he has the quality, just put him in there and give him the experience he needs, dont waste it on gerrard who wasted his chances with the national team and is in a decline now couldnt do it before def wont do it now for england, should be nothin more than a bench player for england now.

BeautifulGame wrote:Does people even realize where Gerrard played last season.He played as a CM similar position to Wilshere last season not as an AM like the season before.

No he didnt...just because both played CM doesnt mean they played similar roles.

It was well known (at least I thought it was) Arsenal played a system in which sometimes Song bombed forward and Jack sat back and protected the ball 4. They took it in turns at times, Whilshere for many games was very discplined in his role.

Lucas isnt like Song, he sits back and doesnt lose that discipline. Gerrard naturally used that when playing next to him to get forward.

Are you seriously trying to imply that both Whilshere and Gerrard defend and attack roughly the same amountin games? Are you saying Gerrard doesnt get forward more?

But we havent seen how he has recovered from this injury yet.
Hes unlucky that his last full season was under H and G and Hodgson. We forget how badly everyone played back then, to me it doesnt signal any sort of decline
When he played he was still powerful and mobile, the goals dried up but that was more to do with want away Torres and Maxi being his link up men
He didnt really need to go beyond players or outpace anyone, I cant remember pace being labeled as a Gerrard attribute.

poolsupporter wrote:@Franchise: All I was trying to do was just add some more information towards the comparison. My initial post was a little aggressive because a lot of people tend to state opinions as facts without actually watching the players week in and week out. I also agree stats just touch upon the surface of the entire story. They don't cover things like off the ball movement, etc.

Another thing I'd like to add is that Gerrard didn't always play in the hole last season. For quite a few games he started in the center. A commentator during our loss to United in the F.A Cup also mentioned how his loss of pace and aging as a whole has sort of forced managers to play him in a deeper role where he can control the game.

The other thing about last season that is worth mentioning is the level of players around him. Everyone in our squad had a good run of terrible games. Lucas was one of the few that maintained good consistency throughout the season. Both Kenny and Roy had played the likes of Meireles on the wing. Maxi didn't really shine through until we were at the tail end of the season. Kuyt, if you look at our game ratings on the old forum, often got some pretty low scores. Poulsen got starts in the first half of the season. Torres was in terrible form and sulky for most of the season.

When I went to look at the stats, I expected them to be a lot worse, but I think Gerrard did rather well last season considering the circumstances.

With that said though, Wilshere was indeed the better player.

I know you was, I was simply adding the limitations to those stats so nobody gets the wrong impression. Thats all. Not critical of the stats in anyway and I am glad you posted them.

I dont think I said Gerrard played in the hole last season. I didnt watch as many games as Pool supports obviously, that goes without saying. My comments were more towards how he plays and the position he takes up because of his style and mentality rather then where he was located on the pitch on paper. I mea I was Raul playing on the right of midfield under Hodgon, I saw alot of questionable things, so I wasnt about to make bold statements as to where a player played his game. I couldnt tell you where Gerrard played most of his games last season, but I can tell you from the games I saw how he behaved and the positions he ended up taking on the field.

Lord Spencer wrote:
Which we can see in the united game, where he lacked pace and only threatened United late in the game. You had five or six pool players that were better than him that game.

In no order;
Lucas
Kuyt
Suarez
Raul
Maxi
Skrtl

For starters he played in a deep lying Cm like Alonso did for us before in the United hence didnt try any typical runs into the box until late in the game when the game was safe.

Here is the chalkboard analysis from Guardian about the match.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/mar/07/liverpool-manchester-united-chalkboard-analysis

Suárez being used behind Kuyt meant that Steven Gerrard reverted to playing as a deep midfielder alongside Lucas Leiva, where he played a reserved, disciplined role ahead of his own back four. The chalkboard shows that he attempted the majority of passes from his own half of the pitch and didn't complete any passes in a central playmaking position.

Gerrard's presence in that zone turned out to be very important, because Lucas – a star man in many of Liverpool's big games so far this season – was underwhelming in this match. He completed just one of the 10 tackles he attempted throughout the 90 minutes.

Liverpool kept a good defensive shape throughout the game, however, and so Lucas's poor tackling wasn't a major problem. Kenny Dalglish's biggest worry was how many free-kicks his side conceded around the penalty area, but Manchester United didn't take advantage of these opportunities.

Gerrard just adopted to the team needs not that he had a poor game.And he was our 3rd best player behind Suarez and Kuyt in that game.Also he was half fit hence that was the last game last year he played for us iirc.Still he produced a high quality game.

cyberman wrote:But we havent seen how he has recovered from this injury yet.
Hes unlucky that his last full season was under H and G and Hodgson. We forget how badly everyone played back then, to me it doesnt signal any sort of decline
When he played he was still powerful and mobile, the goals dried up but that was more to do with want away Torres and Maxi being his link up men
He didnt really need to go beyond players or outpace anyone, I cant remember pace being labeled as a Gerrard attribute.

Well I personally dont have much faith we will see the old Gerrard again, and I dont really see why anyone would either.

If this was Gerrard of his early 20's who overcame those bad hamstring problems perhaps. But this is 32 year old Gerrrard coming from 2 seasons of injury issues and a Gerrard who relies on physical attributes which to me seem very much on the decline to me.

I dont know about pace and whatever else. But he made run after run after run and once he got into stride he had a gear most midfields couldnt keep with. I havent seen that from him in 2 seasons.

I think if we checked how many runs (sprints) he made per game, it would be down.

This for example, I dont think he has a shot at doing now.

Agreed on that observation,I dont think Gerrard can get that starting spot in liverpool again.

I gotta say blaming the manager EVERY time England plays like sh1t is starting to get old. Have you kids seen what Capello has accomplished?

Lets wait for the next manager to arrive, and lets see how much of the blame he will get when they continue to play crappy. Perhaps the players are not good enough?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2011/09/03/liverpool-fc-skipper-steven-gerrard-i-m-fitter-than-ever-after-five-months-of-injury-hell-100252-29355832/

He's finished.