Super League - time to reconsider

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Post by Pedram Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:41 pm

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Post by futbol_bill Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:27 pm

Here’s the way I see it.

Current Situation - the CL winner is always one of the Big teams. The winner has to have a deep squad. It can be argued that City won because it not only had the strongest starting lineup, but their bench strength, not only better than anyone else, but capable of challenging the starters. This year, RMad bench strength has improved a lot, but injuries may have depleted that advantage and meanwhile City’s bench strength is weakening from last season. I see the winner this year to again be between these two, although injuries may change that. If it does, winner will still be a big team.

There simply are too many games, with the result being injuries and these injuries are increasing the need and club’s budget for additional bench strength. The cost of acquiring the top players to not only field a strong team of starters plus bench strength basically prohibits non Big teams from effectively competing plus it is becoming increasing more difficult for previous big teams to keep up. Best example of this is the Italian teams.

UEFA and FIFA are all about increasing revenues, most of which seems to go into someone’s pocket. There is little concern about the impact of extra games to the players and to club budgets. And yet both of these organizations are continuing to increase number of games including the incoming changes to CL.

Very few, I would say no more than 5 of big clubs can keep up with the increasing costs of acquiring top talent.

The smaller clubs are dependent upon big clubs to stay financially viable, but at same time cannot over time compete with them. The domestic leagues, right down to level 5 are essentially feeder teams reliant on developing players in exchange for cash payments which funds them.

And the first half of CL season is boring and highly predicable. Interest doesn’t really pick up until qtrs or in some years to semis.

So I believe in the following;

1. The big teams will not abandon the domestic leagues, meaning the super league is just a replacement for CL.
UEFA can still have it’s EL and conference league. And thus, I don’t believe the SL will effect negatively European futbol.

2. The big teams plus whoever else qualifies for super games get a bigger portion of super league revenues, and thus better able to compete with each other. The top funded teams may still have an advantage, but I believe it will be less so. I also don’t believe the US franchise model that Sports is suggesting will work as there are too many countries / jurisdictions involved.

3. The competition has to be open, and not a closed competition with clubs having to earn their way into competition. I await to see what exactly the proposal will be. I also believe most of the instant negative reaction is a result of misunderstandings.

4. Most important of all, I believe fans want to see more best against best and fundamentally I think this is what the super league is about and will generate interest and therefore more revenue particularly tv or streaming revenues.
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Post by The Madrid One Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:54 pm

The Champions League has so much prestige and Real Madrid's own prestige comes from that greatest of competitions... I can't for the life of me stomach the end of the champions league or a scenario where we are playing a glorified Mickey Mouse cup with a handful of other big clubs while a majority of the European powerhouses are still in the UCL racking them up. This is a lovechild project for Perez... is he willing do drag our history through the dirt and leave us in exile? Unless the super league manages to gather so much support that it becomes inevitable for it to replace the UCL or for UEFA to come to some kind of satisfactory agreement with the clubs that sees its ideas integrated into a new UCL, I could not support it.

Imagine playing a Mickey Mouse cup with no historical legitimacy and then pretending it means the same as the fucking champions league that the other clubs keep winning. Raping your own soul. Surely this cannot happen. Laughing

Yesterday the A22 CEO was replying to questions about the English government taking action into their own hands and he more or less stated that they can only do that if the EPL clubs go into a breakaway league, he said that since the super league isn't a "breakaway league" (breakaway from premier league) that they should be fine to join. What are the details behind all that?

I'm all for things getting better for clubs and fans and worse for corruption and monopolies but the UCL... especially for Madrid... is something that I think is sacrosanct.
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Post by Arquitecto Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:21 pm

sportsczy wrote:@arqui - the economics for UEFA are great to add more games. But is it for clubs? Need bigger squads. Curious to see if the club xtra cost to clubs is backed by more revenue for them. At first glance, no. UEFA is keeping most of it.

Also, clubs aren’t expanding squads enough to keep up with extra games.


Greed v greed is the way I see it.



That's my point it's just another shade of the same thing. You're smart enough to know that it's just Perez's own way of lining his pocket even further. I generally possess elitist views but perez isn't one I trust nor care for his views and this will in effect erase the entire UCL history which i repeat really is the greatest competition out there.

It's naive to think UEFA needs restructuring let alone FIFA but I am happy this happened because it hopefully will force their hand to stimulate some change because its been bad for a while now.

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Post by sportsczy Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:29 pm

The small club are not dependent on the biggest clubs to remain viable...  France is selling to Bundi like crazy and not Bayern.  If you look at the economics of how French smaller clubs stay viable:
-  Developing talent
-  Selling 80% of that talent to mid tier clubs in Europe, mostly EPL and Bundi.  Some La Liga and Serie A.
-  Why 80%?  80% of their annual revenue comes player sales of 8 million or less.

So this whole notion that "small clubs need big clubs to survive" is absolute nonsense.  Small clubs need deep leagues so the mid-tier clubs can buy talent.  SL would kill that.
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Post by futbol_bill Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:09 pm

Sports, You have to look at the entire system. The 5th level sells to top teams at that level or level 4. It works that way up to top level. There they sell to top teams in country or abroad. But gate and tv revenues are very much dependent on games against the top clubs. Perhaps that doesn’t exist in France as they don’t really have any top club except for PSG.

Mto, if the other big clubs don’t rejoin the new proposal, whatever it might end up being, the so called super league will indeed be dead.

Keep in mind, that all this initial reaction is IMO based on misconceptions as to what the new or revised proposal will be. If the SL is implemented, history will simply view it as European cup morphing into CL and then morphing again into SL.

Or it may well be that Uefa under pressure adopts the proposed changes and gives more revenue to participants. This is actually what happened in USA with American football, Basketball and Ice Hockey.

And Arq, are you not at all concerned about number of games, resultant injuries and the ever escalation of cost of doing business, particularly with need for larger and stronger squads?

As to Flo, i obviously don’t share your view, but Flo and Madrid will find a way to remain competitive whether this SL advances or dies. Just look at current squad, and how much it actually cost compared to top EPL teams and PSG.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:25 am

Yeah, in France, divisions do not count unless you fall in to the "amateur" category (after Division 3) where you're not allowed to have a professional academy.

That's why Le Havre, Lens, Rennes, etc. are such profitable clubs regardless of how the team does.  Rennes is owned by Pinault btw who is worth 31 billion.  The academy is the biggest revenue source for these teams and they sell mostly to mid-table teams.   So it doesn't really matter to them how well the top team does.  They are not dependent on media revenue, merchandising or stadium proceeds.  

They keep their budget within the confines of what the player transactions generate... and these are small transactions individually but total up a lot.  They do, of course, get a big windfall now and then.  But it's not something that drives the business.

For example, Rennes generated 143.5 million, with one windfall that generated 60 million (Doku to Man City).  Without that one, they were at 83.5 million.  How much did they spend?  57.9 million because they don't base their budgets on non-recurring revenue.  They average around 50-80 million in player sales revenue normally so they stay within those bounds. The additional money is reinvested in the academy.
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Dec 23, 2023 2:16 pm

That funding doesn’t happen in Spain and I believe most other countries. Sure there are lots of sugar daddies out there, but reality for most clubs, at all levels of futbol is they depend on gate and tv revenues and with their small budgets, they are forced to be a developer of talent and must sell to acquire players. The amount / size of gate and tv revenue is largely based on games against the big teams and for that matter the very presence of the big teams in the liga, particularly with tv revenues.

I’ll give you an example. You go into any restaurant / pub in Spain on a Sunday. There is always a liga game on multiple tvs. If it is a clasico, the room is full and all eyes are on TV. If it is Madrid or Barcelona playing someone on liga, the bar is busy and all eyes on TV. If the game is between 2 non big or bottom half of classification, the game is on in background, little attention to the game, unless it is a local team.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:38 am

The issue is that Ligue 1 doesn't need SL (as I explained).  Bundi either because they have a better media deal than Ligue 1 combined with a similar development model.  EPL doesn't need it at all wit their crazy media deal.  Portuguese and Dutch leagues use the same development model as Ligue 1 as well.

The only two leagues that would benefit from the model SL proposes are La Liga and Serie A.  That's it. And I'm just looking at it narrowly.

The most damning part of this is that major investors would only ever consider taking over SL clubs. No small team would ever have the chance to get a major investor. If SL existed 15 years ago, Man City and PSG would not exist as they do today.
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Post by Vibe Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:51 am

I think Perez clearly played Winning Eleven and wants to make Master League in real life.
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Post by halamadrid2 Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:49 am

Vibe wrote:I think Perez clearly played Winning Eleven and wants to make Master League in real life.
I think he wants to retire having bettered Bernabeu who was the founder of the European Cup. Alot of Perez has been doing has been a carboncopy of Bernabeu.

There is also rumours of his ailing health. He is going to have to step down soon and I think he wants to see this through before stepping down.
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Post by Arquitecto Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:46 pm

Bill to do the electric boogaloo in his sleep when he hears of Perez's health.


To me the ESL is more about Perez's legacy than for the benefit of footballing clubs all over and Ill be direct that I do not care for that or Real Madrid nor trust such a megalomaniac for his vision therefore after days of thinking over this and brilliant points by all parties Im for the status quo to remain and the lesser of two evils.
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:19 pm

Arq, i have known Perez for over 30 years, not personally, but he knows or recognizes me. Most of what is said negatively about him is not the man I know. He is extremely smart and a man of principles. No other club follows sound financial practices the way he manages. He started the job, with little knowledge of game and player costs and needs, but has learned a lot and has continually evolved. Take how he has assembled this current squad as an example.

Don’t know about his health, but it would not be surprise. Most people our age, including me have or have had health issues. They may or may not prevent normal activities for a while or permanently. The other factor of Perez is he has spent enormous amount of time on this job and may simply want to slow down at this age. It’s very normal to want to complete his “missions” or goals before stepping back. The squad, hopefully after this summer will be complete for another decade of domination and stadium is near full completion.

As to the super liga, it may or may not die. I don’t think any of us can predict until we hear what the revised presentation will be! The idea, by the way of a super liga is not Perez’s. I can recall it being discussed, I believe that started in Italy 30 or 40 years ago!

My personal prediction is the suggestion of (revised) super liga will interest several other clubs and that pressure will force UEFA to adopt several of the concepts, especially more games of best vs best, and more money to participating clubs. The best against best will generate more revenues than adding more clubs and games.

And end result will be Perez accomplishes all of his missions!
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Post by sportsczy Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:37 pm

best against the best.... based on merit only! If "the best" means Girona for example, then Girona it is. Same in EPL... the best involves Aston Villa this year. In Bundi, Leverkusen, Leipzig an Stuttgart are 3 of the top 4.

I have a big big issue with the concept of "historical teams". That rubs me completely wrong.

And I disagree, people love to see underdog teams do well and watch them. The same matchups over and over again become extremely boring.
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Post by Arquitecto Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:40 pm

futbol_bill wrote:Arq, i have known Perez for over 30 years, not personally, but he knows or recognizes me. Most of what is said negatively about him is not the man I know. He is extremely smart and a man of principles. No other club follows sound financial practices the way he manages. He started the job, with little knowledge of game and player costs and needs, but has learned a lot and has continually evolved. Take how he has assembled this current squad as an example.

Don’t know about his health, but it would not be surprise. Most people our age, including me have or have had health issues. They may or may not prevent normal activities for a while or permanently. The other factor of Perez is he has spent enormous amount of time on this job and may simply want to slow down at this age. It’s very normal to want to complete his “missions” or goals before stepping back. The squad, hopefully after this summer will be complete for another decade of domination and stadium is near full completion.

As to the super liga, it may or may not die. I don’t think any of us can predict until we hear what the revised presentation will be! The idea, by the way of a super liga is not Perez’s. I can recall it being discussed, I believe that started in Italy 30 or 40 years ago!

My personal prediction is the suggestion of (revised) super liga will interest several other clubs and that pressure will force UEFA to adopt several of the concepts, especially more games of best vs best, and more money to participating clubs. The best against best will generate more revenues than adding more clubs and games.

And end result will be Perez accomplishes all of his missions!


I was being facetious really but I believe your words and I appreciate the comprehensive thoughts and glad to hear that is the case about him. Im aware you're a respected member in the RM fan covenant as a whole so always like these thoughts from you.

I simply am just against the SL solely due to the fact that I prefer to stay within the worlds greatest competition and dont see it as beneficial enough to break away from UEFA
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:14 pm

sportsczy wrote:best against the best.... based on merit only! If "the best" means Girona for example, then Girona it is. Same in EPL... the best involves Aston Villa this year. In Bundi, Leverkusen, Leipzig an Stuttgart are 3 of the top 4.

I have a big big issue with the concept of "historical teams". That rubs me completely wrong.

And I disagree, people love to see underdog teams do well and watch them. The same matchups over and over again become extremely boring.


I don’t disagree with whath you said, except last paragraph.

Girona if they keep it up would well earn the right to the tournament and on the other hand if Barcelona continue to drop, they should be excluded.

I believe the representation will different from last time;

No exclusive membership, yearly participation based on merit
Not abandoning domestic leagues

As I have alluded to several times, I think this gets resolved with UEFA adopting the acceptable concepts of super liga.

Question for you Sports, how do you reconcile your opening views in the start of this thread, of some sort of super league with your posts in last week of total denial?

If you are expecting a total break out of top teams to a total separate league like the NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL, that just can’t happen in a collective Europe. Plus it would ruin domestic leagues which has been one of your most persistent arguments.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:59 pm

i want a CL that is NOT being led by an administration that has no responsibility towards the leagues, clubs or players.  The FFF (which represents NTs) shouldn't get the sole vote on UEFA presidency... it should include the LFP president (chosen by clubs, which represents the league) + a players' representative.

I personally don't want SL to be much different other than how the leadership is chosen, whom it's answerable to and what the strategic goals are.  The competition itself is not a big problem.  

That's what I hope SL turns into:  A privatized version of UEFA that is less corrupt, more efficient and gets voted in by a conglomeration of votes that represents all stakeholders.

I do not want a SL that only cares about short-term commercial deals that are designed to promote and benefit a handful of "historic clubs" using a bastardized franchise moel.
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Post by halamadrid2 Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:02 pm

sportsczy wrote:i want a CL that is NOT being led by an administration that has no responsibility towards the leagues, clubs or players.  The FFF (which represents NTs) shouldn't get the sole vote on UEFA presidency... it should include the LFP president (chosen by clubs, which represents the league) + a players' representative.

I personally don't want SL to be much different other than how the leadership is chosen, whom it's answerable to and what the strategic goals are.  The competition itself is not a big problem.  

That's what I hope SL turns into:  A privatized version of UEFA that is less corrupt, more efficient and gets voted in by a conglomeration of votes that represents all stakeholders.

I do not want a SL that only cares about short-term commercial deals that are designed to promote and benefit a handful of "historic clubs" using a bastardized franchise moel.
I agree
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Post by titosantill Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:54 pm

i don't even see the need for a super league. i don't see a need for extra competitions, or extra tournaments (i hate the spanish super cup new format) or any of those things. i'd like to see a development in talent than new competitions. players being encouraged to express themselves on the pitch; a little showboating here and there, a little individualism and not just play the same way every other team plays.

you can make the super league like the emirates cup and just have the teams participate as a pre-season friendly or something like that. But we're not in a situation where we are lacking for football tournaments. and while we're at it, i don't see that many problems with the champions league or its format. what will make it better is better talent, end of.
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Post by Myesyats Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:56 pm

I think I prefer the ESL format to the new CL format tbh

Although the change is for good, except more games will mean more injuries

more revenue share in the ESL too, will be interesting to see what happens.
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Post by Arquitecto Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:48 am

Still not getting why anyone is okay with the ESL when it means sacrificing the greatest competition in football and its respective history.

ESL to me is basically the UEFA Nations League. Brilliant presentation but no prestige in its victory.

Yes yes Rome wasnt built in a day but tf do i care about that
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Post by Vibe Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:14 am

Only change I wanted to see from CL was it to become a world competition instead of just a European one, but since that is not possible I wouldn't touch anything.

Anyway, I still get the chills when I hear the UCL opera on TV, it is the greatest football competition so I hope it stays that way.
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Post by Arquitecto Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:15 pm

Thats my exact point. Over half a century of history and prestige gone for some new format playground of Perez, whom I could not care less for.

The changes whilst of merit are just not enough to merit the break off from such a competition.

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Post by Myesyats Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:52 pm

Vibe wrote:Only change I wanted to see from CL was it to become a world competition instead of just a European one,

Huh for what? And who would watch Inter vs Nagasaki Dickriders or Guadalajara Muchachos?

@Arq Tradition is overrated, ESL would replace CL and it would have the same merit because the same clubs would play in it and the best team in the world would win. The only thing that'd change is labels but merit is merit. + more money to the clubs rather than greedy UEFA

Football evolves and viewers evolve in terms of what they expect and so the competitions must follow.

CL groups are boring af, do you really watch all the games except your team or the group of death? The knockout phase will remain unchanged but something has to be done about those boring groups IMHO
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Post by El Gunner Tue Mar 05, 2024 5:22 pm

yea CL group stages are boring... some are even complaining the KO stages have become boring since the eradication of away-goals rule... i can understand those arguments, but i really don't care because i always thought that rule was unfair
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Post by Vibe Tue Mar 05, 2024 5:58 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Vibe wrote:Only change I wanted to see from CL was it to become a world competition instead of just a European one,

Huh for what? And who would watch Inter vs Nagasaki Dickriders or Guadalajara Muchachos?

@Arq Tradition is overrated, ESL would replace CL and it would have the same merit because the same clubs would play in it and the best team in the world would win. The only thing that'd change is labels but merit is merit. + more money to the clubs rather than greedy UEFA

Football evolves and viewers evolve in terms of what they expect and so the competitions must follow.

CL groups are boring af, do you really watch all the games except your team or the group of death? The knockout phase will remain unchanged but something has to be done about those boring groups IMHO


I would certainly rather watch River Plate v Inter in Argentina or Flamengo in Brazil rather than Viktoria Plzen.
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