EURO 2020 - Group F

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Which teams will go through ? ( Choose 2, please)

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Post by VivaStPauli Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:11 pm

Because right after those substitutions we conceded and never regained control.

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Post by Casciavit Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:14 pm

I thought with Goretzka coming in he'd move to a 3-5-2 but he kept him as an attacker in a 3-4-3 lol.
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Post by BarcaLearning Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:18 pm

Gosens was poor in the first game though, so im not sure if its all he was that good or just Portugal was so bad to leave him free all game. No saying hes not a very good player which he is of course...
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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:19 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:Because right after those substitutions we conceded and never regained control.


To make substitutions makes sense. The fact that your sub is the useless Emre Can is a completely different issue.
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Post by Casciavit Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:27 pm

I didn't think Gosens was that bad in the first game. He got in good positions, but the ball just never reached him.

I just can't believe Fernando Santos didn't adjust to the overloads. Either get Renato/Bernardo to track Gosens or get Semedo to defend him and have one of the DM's drop back closer to the channels.

The coaching quality in international football is definitely at a lower level. Luis Enrique is the only one who did anything relevant in the last few years. Mancini and Deschamps were good in club football, but they hadn't done anything relevant there for a decade. It's rare to see an elite coach actually coach an international team unless it's for a short two year transition period where they can coach one international tournament before they jump on to their next club ala Conte/Lucho/Maybe Flick.
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:27 pm

The overreaction after the first game is so much. It's understandable given it's been too long Germany couldn't make any statement victory and it's been too long for Low managing Germany.

Yet Germany coped well against France. If France didn't lead through own goal, they couldn't defend that compact and counter that menacingly through Mbappe. France actually capable to withstand Germany's wingbacks siege. Well, Germany could be starting slowly also, as what they are known here. Der Panzer, Slow Starter.

Germany played their most attractive football with 4231 during the early 2010s, but they actually win the crunch games in World Cup 2014 using 433 with Ozil Klose Muller upfront, no Podolski. Recently, Chelsea with their brilliant German Coach won the champions league using 3421. Rudiger and Havertz are well-versed with it. Hummels is slow. They don't have any good number 9. And Gosens is optimally unleashed using this formation. It's not that crazy or stupid actually.

Although, it's very strange how Portugal letting the same pattern bombard them. They replaced Bernardo with Renato to cover that side, but they still concede two more goals through that side. Their 2 DMs who are supposed to solidify the defense are just like boulders, being there, doing nothing. Il Commandante finally breaking his duck of scoring against top European opponent other than Spain and Netherlands, though

From the 2 games so far, Gosens has shown that he is a very effective wingback. Though France were much more mature and solid than Portugal. Kimmich is also very good. Not that strange since before he became the all-conquering midfield general, he's a very good fullback. If they play 4231, Gosens and Kimmich wouldn't be able to venture like this. As especially against lightning forward like Mbappe, they have to focus more on defending.

All in all, a great team performance by Germany. Gosens stood out, Kimmich also played well supplying Gosens with those hanging crosses, Gnabry did well dribbling and leading the counter, Muller linked the attack superbly, and Havertz is on the way to become the Tap In Master. It's not perfect though, the midfield is very soft and lack the engine of Goretzka. And due to the soft midfield, the defense were terribly exposed many times on the counter. Also, what's up with Rudiger's mask? Since wearing it, he battered KDB and bit Pogba. Is it posessed? Twisted Evil Laughing


Last edited by Superstone Mariomintsch on Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:30 pm

@BarcaLearning wrote:Gosens was poor in the first game though, so im not sure if its all he was that good or just Portugal was so bad to leave him free all game. No saying hes not a very good player which he is of course...

He's actually their main source of creation in the first half. He didn't play poorly imo
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:31 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:Because right after those substitutions we conceded and never regained control.

That's the choice you have to make though. Isn't it dumber if they won this game 6-2 comfortably and couldn't win against Hungary like France, because the key players are battered
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Post by VivaStPauli Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:38 pm

@Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
@VivaStPauli wrote:Because right after those substitutions we conceded and never regained control.

That's the choice you have to make though. Isn't it dumber if they won this game 6-2 comfortably and couldn't win against Hungary like France, because the key players are battered


In my defense, when I complained about the substitutions I didn't know Gosens had muscular problems, but you're right.
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Post by neuro11 Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:34 am

@VivaStPauli wrote:Because right after those substitutions we conceded and never regained control.


Exactly my thought. they lost the momentum and opportunity to increase goal difference

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Post by neuro11 Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:41 am

@Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
@VivaStPauli wrote:Because right after those substitutions we conceded and never regained control.

That's the choice you have to make though. Isn't it dumber if they won this game 6-2 comfortably and couldn't win against Hungary like France, because the key players are battered


I thought Goal Difference would be key to get an easier opponent next round. Also, a team with CR should not be underrated. They could bounce back.

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Post by Babun Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:09 pm

I'm happy we won and will probably reach the next stage but the performance is a bit overrated by our media. Our team played the exact same way like vs France. The difference was France had better mids to shut down Kroos and Gündogan, they also isolated Gosens so Kimmich was the only option to play. He couldn't get much done.
Portugal had huge gaps on their right, Pepe had to cover for everyone, Gosens could double team, overlap on Portugal's rightback. There's a reason he was MOTM. Of course, a very talented chap but the Portugese coach didn't adjust anything during the second half.
The team looked extremly shaky during the last 20 minutes but that's to be expected of the youngsters and mediocore Can in the middle.
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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:26 pm

Yeah honestly I thought the Can bashing in the forums was a bit much, but when he came on he was just soooooo bad, really.

I wish we'd taken literally any other midfielder. Just bring on Kramer instead, he wouldn't give away possession that easily.

Ultimately it was just portugal who are mostly a fluke r16 team anyway, just like Spain will be again now that Xaviesta retired, we can still go out against Hungary, and even if we make it out of the group I don't see us getting past the quarters this year. We're just not good enough.
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Post by Guest Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:00 pm

not once, twice, thrice .... like semedo lost gosens like all the time. of goals scored from gosen's flank seems semedo seeing gosens as invisible man. man of the match performance.

also loved gnabry kimmich, harvetz, and gorezka performance late on. this german side can still do a lot better they are capable to do much more damage

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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:10 pm

I mean yeah honestly I kinda liked everyone's performance, only Gündogan had me thinking he could do a bit more offensively, and Gnabry had great spirit but lacked effectiveness.
Other than that they all did pretty well.
But all in all, tactics wise, our defense is kinda leaky. Or rather: we should really train how to defend set pieces. That 2nd goal was unnecessary AF.

The first one? That was a once-a-tournament pass, and would've carved any high line up like that. Though it was weird seeing which three Germans ended up being the last line. Still a lot of work to be done. We'll be leaky in this tournament.
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Post by The Franchise Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:12 am

@sportsczy wrote:You guys misunderstand DD.  He plays whatever tactic gives him the best chance of winning that game.  Playing Germany in Munich means you need to be conservative.  On the other extreme, leaving the ball to Argentina is stupid... so France attacked almost all game long.

Keep in mind that Varane had an awful season at Madrid, Kimpembe is mistake-prone and Pavard isn't exactly solid defensively either.  So he needs to protect them.  You're asking to lose if you let that back 4 on its own.  In contrast, you can leave Mbappe, Griezmann and Benzema on their own with a better than good chance that they score.

It's all about probabilities with him.  It's not pretty..  but effective.

The only way he changes is if France loses.  After a Euro Final and WC win... it would take a loss prior to the semis imo.

I understand it, I just dont like it. He is right, those tactics are usually the best way to win. I dont fault the logic.

But I think France can do alot more and wipe the floor with teams far easier. Means more risk and volatility, but that is what makes teams those you remember decades later.
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Post by Guest Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:33 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:I mean yeah honestly I kinda liked everyone's performance, only Gündogan had me thinking he could do a bit more offensively, and Gnabry had great spirit but lacked effectiveness.
Other than that they all did pretty well.
But all in all, tactics wise, our defense is kinda leaky. Or rather: we should really train how to defend set pieces. That 2nd goal was unnecessary AF.

The first one? That was a once-a-tournament pass, and would've carved any high line up like that. Though it was weird seeing which three Germans ended up being the last line. Still a lot of work to be done. We'll be leaky in this tournament.


yea i agree that defense is a bit of a suspect. rudiger hummels is a bit shaky ; rudiger is great on physical challenges but he often gets caught badly on position or he might i have seen him do that often in chelsea. i miss seeing boateng there. i hold robin koch to be good defender as well but i can understand that low wants to trust his senior players in big games and not experiment because they had lost points against france

i think gnabry will come good he was a bit lucky. when portugal defense was stretched, he had put himself in very good opportunitistic positions himself

also i wonder how sane will evolve later on germany needs those options upfront for sure

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Post by Lord Awesome Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:44 pm

France are doing what they should be doing honestly. I dont see them having players to play another way with the same level as they do now. If you're France you gotta play Pogba and Kante for sure. Those are key components in their team and it's no surprise why Deschamps plays them the way he does and modifies his team accordingly to their best strengths to play them all in their best strengths. It may not be pretty for most but I do love watching an organized when I see one and France certainly gives me a very Greek vibe and I love it.
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Post by Lord Awesome Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:48 pm

Germany will be fine. I think it's safe to assume theyll get through. Their players are young but allot of them have potential and I think maybe it is a bit harsh to say they suck even now cause they can still find a way through any team rn.

Portugal need to fix their defensive issues on that right side for sure as well as get their creative players to actually pose a threat upfront. They have Ronaldo and even Andre Silva to pass to fgs. Just get em the ball guys.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:49 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:You guys misunderstand DD.  He plays whatever tactic gives him the best chance of winning that game.  Playing Germany in Munich means you need to be conservative.  On the other extreme, leaving the ball to Argentina is stupid... so France attacked almost all game long.

Keep in mind that Varane had an awful season at Madrid, Kimpembe is mistake-prone and Pavard isn't exactly solid defensively either.  So he needs to protect them.  You're asking to lose if you let that back 4 on its own.  In contrast, you can leave Mbappe, Griezmann and Benzema on their own with a better than good chance that they score.

It's all about probabilities with him.  It's not pretty..  but effective.

The only way he changes is if France loses.  After a Euro Final and WC win... it would take a loss prior to the semis imo.

I understand it, I just dont like it. He is right, those tactics are usually the best way to win. I dont fault the logic.

But I think France can do alot more and wipe the floor with teams far easier. Means more risk and volatility, but that is what makes teams those you remember decades later.


It means entertainment, beauty, skill, excitement. Football ffs. The team has all the quality in the world
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Post by The Franchise Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:00 pm

@Lord Awesome wrote:France are doing what they should be doing honestly. I dont see them having players to play another way with the same level as they do now. If you're France you gotta play Pogba and Kante for sure. Those are key components in their team and it's no surprise why Deschamps plays them the way he does and modifies his team accordingly to their best strengths to play them all in their best strengths. It may not be pretty for most but I do love watching an organized when I see one and France certainly gives me a very Greek vibe and I love it.

Eh. I dont agree. Of course Pogba and Kante should play, but that doesnt mean every other pass is a ball behind to Mbappe or a looking to play directly to Giroud to play with Griezmann, on to a fullback, to a cross.

I dont buy they dont have the players to play another way. Being well drilled is fine, who'd call for a less organised team? But they struggle to open up compact defences because they are so one dimensional. They will always have a chance to win, a big chance, because they have quality and are well organised, but in my view its a big waste and I think we have seen teams get far more out of much less quality.

You compare them to Greece, which isnt wrong, but a terrible look. They had almost no talent whatsoever.
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Post by Babun Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:28 pm

Renato Sanchez did a fine job for Portugal whenever he was on. He also covered that right side better. He should start imo. France might struggle vs Portugal, a victory isn't given. Portugal's counter attacking playstyle doesn't suit France.

Also, Müller is out for at least one game due to knee injury. Hummels, Gündogan also have got problems, might not start vs Hungary.
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:26 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:You guys misunderstand DD.  He plays whatever tactic gives him the best chance of winning that game.  Playing Germany in Munich means you need to be conservative.  On the other extreme, leaving the ball to Argentina is stupid... so France attacked almost all game long.

Keep in mind that Varane had an awful season at Madrid, Kimpembe is mistake-prone and Pavard isn't exactly solid defensively either.  So he needs to protect them.  You're asking to lose if you let that back 4 on its own.  In contrast, you can leave Mbappe, Griezmann and Benzema on their own with a better than good chance that they score.

It's all about probabilities with him.  It's not pretty..  but effective.

The only way he changes is if France loses.  After a Euro Final and WC win... it would take a loss prior to the semis imo.

I understand it, I just dont like it. He is right, those tactics are usually the best way to win. I dont fault the logic.

But I think France can do alot more and wipe the floor with teams far easier. Means more risk and volatility, but that is what makes teams those you remember decades later.


It means entertainment, beauty, skill, excitement. Football ffs. The team has all the quality in the world

I agree, it seems like a missed opportunity on witnessing something grander with their collection of great players.

By the way, please answer my question regarding Löw in the Group D thread. I'm genuinely curious to hear your opinion
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:27 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@Lord Awesome wrote:France are doing what they should be doing honestly. I dont see them having players to play another way with the same level as they do now. If you're France you gotta play Pogba and Kante for sure. Those are key components in their team and it's no surprise why Deschamps plays them the way he does and modifies his team accordingly to their best strengths to play them all in their best strengths. It may not be pretty for most but I do love watching an organized when I see one and France certainly gives me a very Greek vibe and I love it.

Eh. I dont agree. Of course Pogba and Kante should play, but that doesnt mean every other pass is a ball behind to Mbappe or a looking to play directly to Giroud to play with Griezmann, on to a fullback, to a cross.

I dont buy they dont have the players to play another way. Being well drilled is fine, who'd call for a less organised team? But they struggle to open up compact defences because they are so one dimensional. They will always have a chance to win, a big chance, because they have quality and are well organised, but in my view its a big waste and I think we have seen teams get far more out of much less quality.

You compare them to Greece, which isnt wrong, but a terrible look. They had almost no talent whatsoever.

How would you have them play to get far more out of them?
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:49 pm

Deschamps is tactically very astute but not exactly imaginative.

The Greece win will be forever historic simply because they won a huge tourney (Euro more quality than WC always) with little talent.


Deschamp playing his cautious and pragmatic way with this team is akin to using truffle peels on a pizza pocket.

It simply is not necessary and a lot more can be done with this team, akin to Löw to Germany.

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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:24 pm

@Babun wrote:Renato Sanchez did a fine job for Portugal whenever he was on. He also covered that right side better. He should start imo. France might struggle vs Portugal, a victory isn't given. Portugal's counter attacking playstyle doesn't suit France.

Also, Müller is out for at least one game due to knee injury. Hummels, Gündogan also have got problems, might not start vs Hungary.


RIP our Euros run, see you all in Qatar.
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