The US Politics Thread

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Post by elitedam Sat May 29, 2021 5:40 am

I'm hoping all of this is just political theater to get rid of the filibuster.

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Post by McLewis Sun May 30, 2021 4:23 pm

@CBarca wrote:Nothing wrong with being a centrist Dem. A centrist Dem won the white house (and successfully has pivoted pretty left). The blame for all of this is all on the GOP. Fuck them. Bernie gets us 4 more years of Trump. I'm not even a centrist Dem, but I don't understand why the reaction from the left to the headline "Dems fail to get enough votes for X" is "fuck you you stupid fucking democrats". The answer is to put more democrats in Congress. Unless leftists want to form a progressive party or something and destroy the union. It's just not a productive conversation at all.

Like, I don't like the Democratic party either, but there isn't really any choice but to forge forward. We have to try and make the Democratic party as strong as possible, not infight.


I'm sorry, man, but I can't agree with you here.

The GOP are expected to obstruct, no matter what they say. That's expected. What isn't is centrist Dems like Manchin aiding them in making it harder for Democrats to get their agenda passed into law by blocking the means for which Dems can wield the power they have more effectively....and yes more ruthlessly. If Dems are sabotaging their own agenda, they are complicit in what is happening and are thus on the hook for blame. That can't be ignored or explained away.

I'm of the mind that we need to sacrifice Manchin's seat in WV in order to focus on seats that Dems can not only win, but keep due to actual Dem influence and not Republicans merely voting for Dems (I look to Susan Collins' seat in Maine for example). We cannot keep letting centrists like Manchin hold this party hostage due to an inflated sense of importance. He's doing nothing for his constituents in WV and he's doing nothing Dem voters in general. Yet he gets wealthier and wealthier every year due to corporate interests.

Yet I'm also of the mind that the Dem electorate cannot expand without killing the filibuster. Without that, we are at the mercy of centrists who just don't have the spine to do what needs to be done. They are too afraid of offending moderates. They are too afraid of giving the GOP attack ad ammo. They are too afraid of their own goddamn shadow to do ANYTHING to help the people that keep voting for them. This inertia is a death by 1000 cuts for America on several levels.

As for in-fighting, The GOP are going through it as well with Trumpism against traditional conservativism. The Dems need to have a reckoning as well. We can't keep stymying progress out of a fear the other side will take advantage when the otherside are on the brink of splintering too. That's just another form of inertia. It helps no one. It just keeps us exactly where we are, for better and worse.

Frankly, both parties need to splinter in to 4 political factions - Far Right, Center Right, Center Left, Far Left. It just makes more sense at this point. Both are parties are too big to govern this country effectively.
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Post by CBarca Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:00 pm

But fracturing isn't going to happen. I've been clear many times that I think America is institutionally flawed and that any real, substantive change requires change in institutions (I've come around to killing the filibuster partially on this thought + the idea that Dems structural disadvantages are getting worse and will continue to).

We agree on the same thing. I think the only difference is that I don't think America is left enough that AOC and the squad are the future of the Democratic Party. I think they're important players and I think that they have a place in the Democratic party pushing to the left. However, America isn't left enough for that.

For Dems to start to bring about structural change, they need to win. You think that means moving to the left, and I don't believe that's how Dems win. That's our difference. Your quote about "not offending moderates" is exactly our difference. "Moderates" make up the majority of the electorate, and although polarization is decreasing the power of moderates, they're extremely important on the margins that either give us Biden or Trump 2.0

Ideologically I agree with you. I'm not a centrist and I identify way more with AOC than Biden or Obama. But I think it's important to win and get as many Dems in the House and Senate as possible. Honestly, my positions recently have been heavily influenced by David Shor. If you're curious about where I come from, take a look at some of his interviews or his Twitter.
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Post by FennecFox7 Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:37 am

It isn’t just about winning. It’s about integrity.

Get lobbying out of politics. Get big money out of politics. You say you want more Democrats to win seats; well what use are they if they are puppets for the corporate machine? Establishment democrats are basically the same as republicans to me. Spineless, traitorous and only concerned about making money and fundraising while not actually doing anything. We expose republicans for that on GoalLegacy everyday and I’m all for it. Fuck those guys. Now let’s get the other side of the swamp, let’s expose the fakes on the Democrat side. I don’t agree with most of what Omar, AOC, Rashida say but damn they have earned my respect; they’re going up against the corporate machine that is the US government. Hats off to them.

You say they help the party go “left” and that they are necessary. But then you say the future forward is compromise. Which I agree with. The problem is that there’s no compromise with villains. And the majority of politicians aren’t compromising; they’re legislating in a circus called congress and getting nothing done while lining their pockets. Yes, both parties do this. Republicans are more obvious about it. Do you not think though that big money in politics and corruption is a bigger problem then just letting whoever says “hi I’m a democrat” win office??


Btw.. you do realize Biden BARELY beat trump, one of our worst presidents in history. That’s not something to brag about. He BARELY won. That’s like saying “I won a race with a snail so I’m clearly doing something right”. Well, when the republicans put up someone without dementia and a sweet tongue like another bush, the democrats will lose again and the cycle repeats


You know who suffers? Us. The American people. We suffer while the circus goes on and on.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:11 am

quickly googled the guy CB name dropped and look at the comments to this video lmaoooo, there's really no hope left, we're stuck in a cycle, the government blew up the artefact... let's just stop procreating - it's the only solution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9g60j8iJz0
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Post by Myesyats Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:17 am

The problem is for sure corporate money. A centrist politician in this scheme means that he is willing to prostitute himself either way. So Manchin is not really, truly a centrist at heart, he's just using the corrupt system to his advantage and profit.

A corrupt system will breed corrupt politicians, simple as. There is no reason to oppose a voting rights act which has an overwhemling support from the public. It is in no way a controversial bill and should have bipartisan majority
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Post by CBarca Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:48 pm

Y'all are just saying everything I already agree with. The problem is that you have no real path forward except arguing that if we just elect super lefty politicians and get money out of politics, we're all good!

I agree! That's obviously the end goal! But that's not a realistic path forward.

Institutional problems require institutional solutions. Systemic problems require systemic solutions. The biggest issue facing the left right now is malapportionment of the Senate, with voting rights & gerrymandering up there as well. Why? Because all three of these things, given the way the country is currently structured and likely will be for the foreseeable future, enable minority rule and encourage extremist behavior. These give Republicans a winning path while being to the right of the median voter.

Progress requires: (1) eliminating the filibuster and approving DC and PR statehood, (2) electing a lot of democrats even if that means those Democrats are to the right of AOC/Bernie (especially at the local level) (3) passing neutral maps legislation and pro-democracy/pro-voting rights legislation

Here is an analogy: we're in a game of American football, except for Dems the touchdown zone is 80 yards from the center of the field. For Republicans, it's 50. The solution I'm hearing is "just draft the greatest QB's and the greatest receivers!". What I'm saying is "invest in lawyers and politicians to change the game so that we're back at 50/50".

There is no use for AOC, or Bernie, or anyone if Republicans continue to win in Congress or in the presidency.
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Post by CBarca Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:05 pm

@El Gunner wrote:quickly googled the guy CB name dropped and look at the comments to this video lmaoooo, there's really no hope left, we're stuck in a cycle, the government blew up the artefact... let's just stop procreating - it's the only solution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9g60j8iJz0


The comment section here is actually one of the funniest things I've seen. It's the anti-woke left not understanding that David Shor is saying things that they agree with. Shor's entire spiel here was that liberals are NOT like the median voter and need to stop messaging that way.

In a nutshell, Shor argues that Democrats should focus on messaging how the American Rescue Plan is saving manufacturing jobs in western Pennsylvania, or that integrating schools/businesses create more profitable businesses/more educated students. NOT messaging and focusing on how we NEED to have more diverse because white people are racist.

It's worth noting again, that me, or someone like Shor, are classic liberals who agree white people are racist and we need more diverse corporations & schools from a moral/equitable standpoint. However, democrats don't need to fucking message that.

Shor is a liberal who understands what it's like in small town Wisconsin, or even what it's like in the suburbs of Milwaukee or Madison. Most people aren't as liberal as liberals. Obviously, that goes with the definition. So stop messaging like you're talking to a bunch of liberals, and message about stuff that the median voter cares about, and would make them want to vote for you or your party.

What I will agree with, as far as the commenters, is that if that many people didn't understand what he's saying, he didn't do a good job of it. However, I think part of it is the framing from Maher and the fact that most people watching already had an idea of who he was or what he stood for before even watching. Hence why none of the commenters actually respond to the content of his remarks, just make some quip about the woke left, which Shor is not a part of.
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Post by Vibe Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:18 pm

Haven't been following politics in quite a while, so what has changed since Trump left?
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Post by Vibe Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:57 am

Anyone?
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Post by Pedram Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:07 am

Biden is just a boring guy so nothing extraordinary has happened so far, i mean he has obviously cleaned up some of Trump's mess but he's also not pushing hard enough on certain issues in order to not anger the moderates in both parties.

He promised a return to 'normalcy' and to be Obama's third term and and that's basically what he's willing to go for.
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Post by Vibe Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:03 am

But Trump was supposedly running a mad house, and then nothing changed but everything is normal now.

I've been checking out some news reports on YT, Sky Australia really hate Biden/Harris.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:40 am

@Vibe wrote:Haven't been following politics in quite a while, so what has changed since Trump left?
Mostly back to pre-Trump status quo, if you like that then that's a good thing, if you don't then not so much. Biden started strong with corona relief and vaccination plans, re-aligning the US with its historical allies, pulled out of afghanistan, rejoined paris deal, etc, but lately he has fizzled out as he's been unable to get any other signature bills through congress.
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Post by VivaStPauli Yesterday at 10:14 am

@Vibe wrote:But Trump was supposedly running a mad house, and then nothing changed but everything is normal now.

I've been checking out some news reports on YT, Sky Australia really hate Biden/Harris.


Well, the civilian administration is slowly starting to work again, with agencies having all their postings filled again etc, but it'll take time to undo the damage of the Trump administration, especially considering how many judges (not just the supreme court ones) they installed.

Foreign policy wise, from a European perspective, it's nice to not be constantly insulted by the American ambassador.
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