Manchester United Part V / ETH Sack Watch

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Post by Davis Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:22 am

It looks like Ten Hag will be gone before Christmas at this rate. When will the Glazers realise the problem is with themselves and not the managers?

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Post by futbol_bill Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:23 am

No that isn’t the way it works at most club. It is as Thimmy says at the majority of clubs. The coach has input, i.e. who he would like and he is usually consulted for his opinion on potential targets, but it’s club’s management and DoF that have the plan, particularly the longer term vision.

Reasoning is simple enough. The manager, no matter how good is a short term tenure, so it’s the future plan that takes priority. The manager’s job is current year, getting the best out of what he has.
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Post by futbol_bill Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:32 am

The Glazers have zero interest in the football aspects of the club. They have invested nothing for years while siphoning off millions each year. Follow all the comments about deterioration of stadium and other aspects non football related. They are simply milking the cow as long as they can. The supposedly sale is a prime example of this. Either bid would be more than satisfactory for a normal investor.

What is surprising to me is how the club still maintains a healthy value and yearly profit!

If it wasn’t for Firenze’s annual comments about what a great team this will be every August, I would feel sorry for ManU fans.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Oct 05, 2023 11:26 am

futbol_bill wrote:No that isn’t the way it works at most club. It is as Thimmy says at the majority of clubs. The coach has input, i.e. who he would like and he is usually consulted for his opinion on potential targets, but it’s club’s management and DoF that have the plan, particularly the longer term vision.

Reasoning is simple enough. The manager, no matter how good is a short term tenure, so it’s the future plan that takes priority. The manager’s job is current year, getting the best out of what he has.


that's exactly what i said
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Post by futbol_bill Thu Oct 05, 2023 12:00 pm

El Gunner wrote:the manager gives a list of players he wants (Plan B, C included, incase Plan A doesn't work out), and then the board gets to working on it... that's how it works at every club, stop making excuses for Ten Hag


That isn’t anywhere close to what both Thimmy and I have said!
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Post by El Gunner Thu Oct 05, 2023 1:37 pm

it's exactly the same thing, you just lack proper reading skills
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Post by futbol_bill Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:43 pm

You’re saying coach makes a list and club then makes purchases.

We’re saying club management / DoF make plan and executes, coach only gets input that may or not be acceptable to overall plan.

Your the one who isn’t reading full posts!
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Post by El Gunner Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:44 pm

the input the coach gets is to make a list and then club goes off that list, they may also work outside that list, but the club gets a list from the manager that's how it works!
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Post by futbol_bill Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:57 pm

Let me rephrase it then, the Smart clubs have a plan for the betterment of team. That plan usually spans several years. The coach can make suggestions or alterations in plan, but the ultimate decisions are made by DoF and management. Your view suggest coach is in charge. Our view is exact opposite of what you are saying. If every club was run like ManU, we would have a lot more club disasters than ManU.
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Post by halamadrid2 Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:01 pm

El Gunner wrote:the input the coach gets is to make a list and then club goes off that list, they may also work outside that list, but the club gets a list from the manager that's how it works!
I don't know how it is at other clubs but at RM for example all the planning and decisions on player recruitment is done by the head scout and the DoF. The manager may get a say but ultimately the DoF and the head scout make up a list based on the profiles that would suit the profile of players already available and then the coach's opinion is thought but alot of the times their opinions don't matter as the club will make the purchase anyways. Only if you carry alot of clout in the club can you demand the club sign the players you want like we saw with ZZ and now with Ten Haag.

Normally the club follows a player for a while before even getting in touch unless said player is already playing at a high level in the biggest competitions.

It's difficult, I wouldn't say the coach has no say at all or he might as well be a mannequin but the DoF makes all the decisions and the coach might like a particular player he has coached (Carlo with Richarlison and Ten Haag with the whole Eridivise) but if the recruitment team don't think he fits in with the profile and the mentality of the club they'll put a line through his name straight away. Carlo has wanted many players but the club has not entertained his whims which I am grateful for because Havettz, Richarlison and Veratti are the type of players Carlo has wanted us to go after.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:27 pm

i never said the coach makes the signings himself... i said the coach gives his wishes to the board and then the board will see what is and what isn't manageable

but the coach is INVOLVED in making signings at every club, that is my entire point!
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Post by futbol_bill Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:58 pm

El Gunner wrote:the manager gives a list of players he wants (Plan B, C included, incase Plan A doesn't work out), and then the board gets to working on it... that's how it works at every club, stop making excuses for Ten Hag


You were trying to make Ten Hag responsible. Any smart club always asks for coach’s input that is either followed or ignored, but in no way, with a smart club does the coach take responsibility for the acquisitions. The difference we are arguing about is ManU has no plan!

If you want to put blame on it, it should be directed to the Glazers, not the 10th coach!
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Post by El Gunner Thu Oct 05, 2023 6:05 pm

he IS partly responsible!
both for their bad signings, and their lack of identity and cohesive on-field play
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Post by futbol_bill Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:03 pm

Ok have it your way. Blame it on coach, fire him and start all over again. Rinse repeat!

The point that Thimmy and others have repeatedly made is ManU have an organizational problem. You can go only so far with changing coaches and squad every year. It’s the Glazers that have run this once great club into the ground. The fault is no overall plan.
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Post by Arquitecto Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:51 pm

ten Hag is trash. Good ideas decent system but mostly clueless when it comes to pressure situations and United is far too big for his bald ass. Go back to Herneheevoen
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Post by BarcaLearning Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:31 pm

So if DoF/club owners mainly decides to sign which players, than thats pretty stupid n should be changed so that the actual coach gets to have more of a say, especially if those that have signed a longer contract n the club intents to build with him? Its not hard to understand why then if true so often coaches have to deal with players they never wanted which is bizarre to me. Come to think of it this might be more common place in bigger clubs than actually... im just gonna stay confused I guess Razz
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Post by halamadrid2 Fri Oct 06, 2023 3:09 am

BarcaLearning wrote:So if DoF/club owners mainly decides to sign which players, than thats pretty stupid n should be changed so that the actual coach gets to have more of a say, especially if those that have signed a longer contract n the club intents to build with him? Its not hard to understand why then if true so often coaches have to deal with players they never wanted which is bizarre to me. Come to think of it this might be more common place in bigger clubs than actually... im just gonna stay confused I guess Razz
Have you not followed Utd at all Laughing prime example of a club that go by the wishes of the coach only and look at the state it has put them in.

The last time a coach demanded we sign a player they like was Zidane with Hazard and Mendy (and Jovic if you believe him) and look at what that brought us. Zidane had previously spent years trying to get us to sign Pogba and Hazard but the club never listened and for good reasons. Their work ethics is the complete opposite to the culture within the club.

Bet the club has learnt their lesson and will never listen to the coach if the recruitment team don't think they should go for the player.

That's my point. Imagine Ten Haag at RM and he wants us to get Antony or Malacia or the long list of players he has a fetish for. The board will probably have to bite their lips in order to not laugh in his face. There are standards, if Utd aspire to be a just top 4 and EL team then by all means go for all those players but if they want to win the league they have to have some standards.

I agree with @Bill and @Thimmy Utd have an organisational problem and not a coaching problem. They need a direction and to follow that direction no matter who coaches them.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Oct 06, 2023 3:14 am

futbol_bill wrote:Ok have it your way. Blame it on coach, fire him and start all over again. Rinse repeat!

The point that Thimmy and others have repeatedly made is ManU have an organizational problem. You can go only so far with changing coaches and squad every year. It’s the Glazers that have run this once great club into the ground. The fault is no overall plan.

I'm not denying this...

but ten Hag is also bad/not fit for the job imo
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Post by Warrior Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:36 am

There is a reason why manager's head comes first on the chopping block when losses start piling up, because their job is to win the next match via strategy and tactics. Planning the future is just extra and only a handful of managers stay long enough at a club to acquire such credibility that gives them power over transfers.

About Man Utd situation i think the front office, scouting department and coaching staff are all incompetent. In that case best thing to do is clean house. But for that to happen you need an owner who cares in the slightest for the club Laughing
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Post by Firenze Sat Oct 07, 2023 11:35 am

who even replaces ETH is the question

I dont see anyone coming in and making a difference
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:13 pm

Firenze wrote:who even replaces ETH is the question

I dont see anyone coming in and making a difference


Does it even matter? Until the organization issues are addressed, the new coach has zero chance to do any better.
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Post by Vibe Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:26 pm

Conte could steady this ship, bring some structure.
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:51 pm

Vibe wrote:Conte could steady this ship, bring some structure.


Lol 😂
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Post by Vibe Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:13 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
Vibe wrote:Conte could steady this ship, bring some structure.


Lol 😂


Care to elaborate? Because he came to a 7th place Juventus and won Serie A immediately, came to 10th place Chelsea and won Premier League immediately and came to 4th place Inter and won Serie A immediately.

I struggle to see the humor. You obviously know better managers who are available, I'd love to hear thair names.
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:40 pm

Read my comment earlier. No coach can fix this until organization issues are resolved. Doesn’t 5 or is it 6 coaches failures tell you anything?
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Post by Vibe Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:03 pm

I've read your comment and still don't understand what was so LOL worthy.

Conte is known for his firm demands and rigid relashionships with the management and he tells them to fuck off and quits the moment he doesn't get his way, which to me, sounds like exactly what they need.
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