So what now, should Valverde be fired?

I think we should start a thread for this. Rival fans are also welcome for their opinions, we seriously need to change something. Last night I felt like Mbappe's reaction after they were knocked out by Man U, that pain lol basically knocked out TWICE in pretty much exactly the same crazily unacceptable circumstances. After Roma I said Valverde should go, but knowing it wont happen just one season and we should give him another chances, but now its clear that he needs to go. Having said that, I hope we discuss serious and helpful opinions instead of venting angry now A few things wanna mention though:

I think most would agree throughout this season, Valverde's decisions have for the absolute majority been good, rotation for our players, getting the performances and results, getting us into the position we are before this game. But a few things hes failed to do -
1. Getting players like Coutinho especially to integrate into the team
2. Preferring Roberto instead of Semedo too often when Semedo is clearly the more defensively solid choice which were needed many times, and we got lucky with Roberto until this game
3. Generally failing to bring new innovative ideas to the team and inspiring special new. The team is still overly relying on Messi, and imbalanced, although I dont think its as bad as some put it, but compared that to say Zidane who does better in this
4. Whenever fielding our B team they look completely out of depth and disjointed, again I say compared that to say Zidane who does better in this

So basically I think hes a very good stable manager, but not special enough to lead us to the biggest trophy and success. I guess some clubs and fans like this, unfortunately for Barca though thats not enough. The problem though is who else is there on the market we can get to improve on Valverde? Apart from the manager, Im sure a lot of us have opinion on the players as well.

Lets hear your thoughts, thanks.

Not even a debate.

Gets embarrassed in CL again after two spineless performances.

Team plays like shit with no intensity, occasionally bailed out by Messi.

I advocated for his sacking already in his first season. Winning La Liga alone is not a sign of a good coach.

He was doing well until now but this match should see the end of him. You can have an off day in Rome but not twice in a row in CL. It is embarrassing.

The truth is Barcelona were physically and mentally second best to Liverpool last night (apart from Vidal who seemed to be the only one understanding what is at stake). And talent can only get you so far in life. And even saying that, your players are not much more talented than Liverpool's, despite what you might think as fans.

He cannot stay after getting embarrassed 2 seasons in a row, that's clear, but it's not his fault alone. 8 out of 10 managers would set up exactly like that with a 3 goal lead away to a counterattacking side on a hostile ground. Allegri would do it, Pochettino did it in the groups against freaking Dortmund, Simeone does it every week. All the big name coaches would do the same, especially with 30+ year old slow players like ours. Pep wouldn't do it but would still lose heavily away from home. There is no guaranteed formula.

Pitty the people who think we're getting Setién and he will win the CL. It will happen again next season if Suarez, Busquets, Rakitic, Roberto, Coutinho and 50 % of the time injured Dembélé make up our team where the only pace comes from Alba and the only physicality comes from washed up Vidal.

Any sort of urgency and hardwork from the opponent on an away ground and we're done.

If its a mental thing its really hard to understand, since we all know how experienced the players are, Rakitic for example in the WC and usually works his ass off for us, but in this game he just couldnt compete vs the 2-3 players surrounding him every time, just as everybody faced, so its more likely I guess they simply cant compete physically anymore, even though they wanted to do it in their mind.

If so, then we do need to speed up the rebuilding process, luckily we've already started doing that, firstly with Arthur who Im very happy about atm, then De Jong. We need to replace Suarez, to find someone who can lead our attack, not easy to find such level forward atm I mean Eto'o/Neymar level... but we would need to if we are to compete, knowing Real are looking to do the same thing.

We can criticise Valverde tactically but to me the problem was not the way Valverde set the team up. I would probably have done the same. And as you say 8 out of 10 would have followed.

Some will criticise him for playing the "pessimistic" way he does, but I think given the players he has, he doesn't have any other choice. If you had watched his Athletic team you'd know he set that team up with very high intensity pressing game, so he can play that game. But he knows this squad isn't fit to play that game, and I concur.

His big crime however, is the fact that he did not get his players mentally ready. Judging by his press conference after the match, I don't think he was ready for it too. A small club coach, much like Vilanova, Martino and Setién.

The way Barcelona conceded the goals made them look like amateurs against hands down the worst Liverpool starting line up all season. Judging by the intensity, mentality, stamina, speed and conviction it looked like Barcelona had a rough weekend match and Liverpool had rested their squad. Except it was the contrary and frankly a very embarrassing display from almost every player. Every 50-50 ball went to Liverpool. Every aerial challenge was won by Liverpool players. This is how you win games. Even Guardiola, the master of possession football admitted after coming to EPL, that winning the second balls is key to success in England. And he adjusted accordingly.

If we go back, this happened against higher intensity teams in La Liga too quite a few times, except they often don't have the quality to capitalise on their chances. You got away, and thought everything was hunky dory. Whereas in the grand European stage, teams like Liverpool punish you for this. And excuses like "tiredness" or "international week curse" don't work any more. This Liverpool team debunked all of that.

Finally, my hats off to the Chilean warrior that is Arturo Vidal, the only player who played how a CL semi final should be played. He was Barcelona's best player by a mile, despite not being so talented as the rest of them. But at least he can look himself in the mirror with no regrets or shame.

Fuck this "given the players he has". Klopp has fucking Milner, Henderson, Wijnaldum and Origi play like prime Messi, Villa and Iniesta, give me none of that shit.

If Valverde was managing this liverpool team they wouldnt of gotten out of the groups and definitely wouldnt challenge City for the prem

I was talking tactically you knobhead

In your opinion this Barca team cannot press which is just dumb to say. They're just complacent because Valverde doesnt ask much of them and the trainings aren't very demanding but if you set the team up to press and teach them to do it they'll do it.

That defense did you in... including the midfielders that were supposed to help.

It really reminded my of how Spain NT has been losing game. Unless Barca can set the pace, they can't have a good game. Defense is just not good enough. I can't think of a single good defender on your team.

Yep I agree with your post completely danyjr, best guess is probably his mentality and hence the players think if we just play our best game we will be fine kinda thing, which has clearly not been, and often in the league as you said the teams that trouble us didnt have the clinical finishes and luck to beat us like Liverpool did last night. He feels like the guy to steady the ship more than to elevate us to new levels.

Just read now actually that the club wants to definitely sell Coutinho in the summer, and my guess is Valverde will find it hard to stay. So Im pretty sure we will be looking for a replacement as well.

Myesyats wrote:In your opinion this Barca team cannot press which is just dumb to say. They're just complacent because Valverde doesnt ask much of them and the trainings aren't very demanding but if you set the team up to press and teach them to do it they'll do it.

If you wanna press with Walkessi, Grampa Suárez, Midgetinho, Slowsquets and Slowitić be my guest mate. You're gonna get thrashed every game

Yes, he needs to be fired. He will resign anyway. The fact that he didn't learn from the Roma defeat last season, nor the FIRST LEG OF THIS VERY TIE, is inexcusable. This Barca team is not equipped to defend a lead. The Barca attack does not function unless the midfield has some semblance of control. Ignoring the blatant signs from the first leg the way he did is either a mark of cowardice or ineptitude.

Along with him - Suarez, Coutinho and Rakitic need to be booted too. Barca need a goalscoring winger, a striker, and a right-back. At a minimum.

And who would you sign to replace these?

danyjr wrote:

Spoiler:

This my biggest issue here first off I always say one thing about many other managers so I will say it here to about EV certain circumstances are out of the managers hand Dembele missing 2 1 v 1, Messi, Suarez and Alba missing 1 v 1 and Alba making a mistake for the first goal or Ter Stegen who could've done better for one of there goals. We could've been through if not for all these little details.

Nevertheless since the start I've never been convinced by him tactically he doesn't generate any form of energy or vibe around the team he seems like a lifeless doll sitting on the touchline. Whenever he's been called in to help out tactically he's been rather disappointing subs off our best player Vidal when it should've been Busquets, brings in another attacking player after we are 4-0 down. He can't motivate for sh!t it seems despite getting the result in the first leg we were second fiddle performance wise in both legs. He couldn't even get this team motivated for the second half I mean we were far worse then the first.

Compare him to people like peak Mou, Pep, Klopp or even Poch you see that these guys get the players most cases then not to actually give a bleep on the pitch.

This is a job that's way over his head a lot of his transfers have also been trash, he should've realized what needs to change and started working on that aspect of the team instead of sticking with this. It's not his first time blowing a 3 goal lead, but his second time virtually playing and doing the same thing.

There are a lack of managers out there but in reality we are entering a rebuilding phase so we should look for someone who can help towards that, of people want to give this team one last horray then perhaps bring in Carlito maybe we will suffer domestically but he may deliver a CL title.

sportsczy wrote:That defense did you in... including the midfielders that were supposed to help.

It really reminded my of how Spain NT has been losing game. Unless Barca can set the pace, they can't have a good game. Defense is just not good enough. I can't think of a single good defender on your team.

I can’t agree with that last sentence. Alba had an unusually bad game but that’s not his norm. Our right back situation is total crap i agree but our cbs and keeper been great. Our issue was our slow ass, zero creativity midfield with no spine when things got bad. I read they lost close to 100 balls. That’s where all the damage came from. The Pool midfield wanted it more, were faster and hungrier for it. Messi and the attack won us the first game and Valverde and the midfield lost us the 2nd.

To sum up the topic, Rakatic, Courinho and Valverde should get the boot this summer.

I guess it depends on what you want from the manager.

Personally, results always come way down the pecking order for me. It is all about Cruyff football and effort for me. As long as we play the Cruyff way and the players give their all, I dont care about results. The football under Valverde is anything but Cruyffian. We play a pragmatic 4-4-2 and it is dour to watch. That being said, will a new manager get us playing breathtaking Cruyffian football? Doesnt matter if we get Pep or Ten Hag , you cant play the Cruyff way with Messi.

Moving style out the way, lets talk about results. Back to back league winners. Moving to CL and specifically this year. What do the other 3 teams have that we dont? Answer is quite simple. All 3 teams defend and attack as a team. And they press relentlessly off the ball, not allowing the opposing team to breathe at all. And when I say defend and attack as a team, I mean all 10 outfield players. Compare to our team. We defend with 8 and dont press at all. The front 2 dont defend at all barring sporadic occasions. Pressing, attacking and defending as a team are supremely integral parts of the modern game. If you dont have those, then you are at a severe tactical disadvantage which the talent advantage can no way come close to making up.
So we dont press, defend or attack as a team with all 10 outfield players. Do we then have the athleticism in the remaining 8 to make up for the lack of a press? Nowhere close. We have Busquets and Roberto. Enough said.

That being said, I do blame Valverde for the lineup in the second leg. Scruberto was destroyed in the first leg and he still insists on starting him in the second leg. That is inexcusable. That alone is a sackable offense.

I think our problems in the CL are more structural than managerial. We dont play the Cruyff way. We dont have a pressing game. We play 2 up top who dont defend. And we dont have the athletic players in midfield to make up for the above problems. Not sure how a different manager is going to solve that.

alexjanosik is right. And that was what i think in major lines.

Beside this, I still think management is the biggest problem. These are the people who keep splashing money without an ounce of idea and vision, they destroyed Masia and subsequently the way we play by buying old fart like Arda and Jeremy Matheu giving hints to young Maisa players that they have no place in first team. So we end up with ageing squad that cant play pressing. The young player they brought turned up shit or injury prone, so that is that.

That being said, VV has to go, together with at least one of the players. ASAP, not even wait for copa final. The management should resign, but they will not do this, therefore they should make a statement that this is not acceptable.

Masia didn't produce anyone of note since Thiago. Which player who left turned out class? No one. Sergi Roberto is La Masia and no one wants him (rightfully). He's actually the best Masia prospect since Thiago. Deulofeu, Munir, Sandro, Tello, Bartra.

This is very different from the little "dry spells" we had in the past like 2013 when our frontline consisted of Pedro and Sanchez and sporadically Fabregas false 9 and all we needed to fix everything were 2 class forwards in Neymar and Suarez while the rest of the team was still in its prime.

In the next 2 years we need a whole new team. Even those players who are class now won't be in 2 years. 32 year old pace-merchant fullback? Get out. We need a successor for Roberto (shit), Alba (age), Pique (age, no leadership qualities), Busquets (past it), Rakitic (age), Suarez (past it) and Messi (he might be class until he's 35 but I doubt his class on the ball will outweigh his even more declining stamina, workrate and movement, especially in big games).

Good luck with that after blowing all the load on Coutinho and Dembélé while every single class players out there costs 100 million upwards.

I think alexjanosik rightly pointed out that football today has evolved into much more about the whole team's effort of pressing and defending together. I guess we still do see some teams a bit like us with their attacking star(s) allowed to defend less, but definitely less, and especially for pressing. However, considering nature of Messi's game, he does need to save his energy for when he has the ball, for Suarez its his age, so I wont blame those two for the situation. Im not sure how we have cope apart from getting players around them that can make up for it. More ideally though we need to replace or rotate Suarez more. Messi is Messi so I dont think we can ask too much there.

With defending, Im not sure if Barca is even capable of developing this side of our game? As Ajax showed vs Spurs coincidentally, they couldnt cope with Spurs' onslaught in that second half. I know how philosophy to defending is to keep the ball, but that seems too one dimensional for todays game when more and more oppositions have worked out how to press effectively to counter this. Im not sure if this will just be a weakness for teams like us, or if we can at the same time improve our defending mindset somehow in order to cope with the football evolution, but we surely can stay the same otherwise we would get left behind.

RE:  futbol

Grimaldo is a gem. Oddly the one guy we likely need right now we sold for 1 million because Lucho had some vendetta against him. Dani Olmo was nominated for Golden Boy just this year. Bellerin is another guy we could of used had he not left. Not saying he is a world beater but he has his charm, and is better than Sergi at RB. Ilaix and Fati who will play for Barca B next season look like the real deal as does Puig even though he is tiny. We also have a a wad of guys we lost when the transfer ban hit, either directly because of the transfer ban or because they wanted more money/playing time with a first team. But to say we haven't produced guys who can't step in since Thiago is not a fair statement. Our problem is developing those talents once they reach the first team, but these kids clearly have potential and can be serviceable roll player. They just need the right first team manager to groom them into something special (imagine if Pep wasn't around to give Busq, Pedro and company a chance?)

I think the problem is that people think we are going to ever have a golden crop of players from the same gen come up together again. That's just ridiculous. or that instead of producing hyper servicable roll players like Pedro and possibly a Grimaldo for example, and aren't on the level of Messi, Xavi or Iniesta that they must be Masia flops. That's also ridiculous as those talents aren't that common, but that doesn't mean they aren't servicable or can turn into solid players. That was an extremely rare thing that won't ever happen again to have that many world beater arrive from the same gen give or take.
But getting one solid guy out of every 1 to 3 generations from la Masia? Absolutely, but with guys like Lucho/EV they will get nowhere in our team and will be discarded and they will never develop.  

That spineless man needs to go. He should go coach a team that doesnt care about how things are on the field and care about results.

BarcaLearning wrote:I think alexjanosik rightly pointed out that football today has evolved into much more about the whole team's effort of pressing and defending together. I guess we still do see some teams a bit like us with their attacking star(s) allowed to defend less, but definitely less, and especially for pressing. However, considering nature of Messi's game, he does need to save his energy for when he has the ball, for Suarez its his age, so I wont blame those two for the situation. Im not sure how we have cope apart from getting players around them that can make up for it. More ideally though we need to replace or rotate Suarez more. Messi is Messi so I dont think we can ask too much there.

With defending, Im not sure if Barca is even capable of developing this side of our game? As Ajax showed vs Spurs coincidentally, they couldnt cope with Spurs' onslaught in that second half. I know how philosophy to defending is to keep the ball, but that seems too one dimensional for todays game when more and more oppositions have worked out how to press effectively to counter this. Im not sure if this will just be a weakness for teams like us, or if we can at the same time improve our defending mindset somehow in order to cope with the football evolution, but we surely can stay the same otherwise we would get left behind.

I read an interview with Messi recently where he states that football has gotten much more physical and tactical over the past 7,8 years. He himself is aware.
I personally dont think pressing and defending as a unit is rocket science. We see tons of teams do it successfully. All it requires is excellent fitness and conditioning, practice and a buy in from the entire team to run.

http://www.barcelonafootballblog.com/27300/valverde-romance-and-the-audacity-of-hope/

I'm sure Alena would have done a MUCH BETTER job. But yeah lets hope Coutinho finally wakes up and play him in a semifinal without any merit based on previous games. Fantastic team selection.