Kudos to Bale and Benzema

As for Lopetegui's style, we should wait and see but i expect something adapted to us and our squad and Bale as CF sounds like a hipster experiment, we've only ever see him play similarly as part of a two forward deal in a 442. I still bet we will play some 433 variant. Maybe Benzema can regain good form but he is not to be trusted and he's never had skills of a killer goal scoring forward anyways, that's never been him even in his best seasons.

Benz hasn't been awful for the last 4 years... just the last 2. He had 24 La Liga goals the year before that and 28 overall despite some injuries. In fact, he was very good for 6 years. His first year and the last 2 were awful however.

The Madrid One wrote:As for Lopetegui's style, we should wait and see but i expect something adapted to us and our squad and Bale as CF sounds like a hipster experiment, we've only ever see him play similarly as part of a two forward deal in a 442. I still bet we will play some 433 variant. Maybe Benzema can regain good form but he is not to be trusted and he's never had skills of a killer goal scoring forward anyways, that's never been him even in his best seasons.

Wtf is this revisionist bs tmo? benz was a world class cf in his better days. has 2 years of bad seasons erased his better years? the current top 5 cfs dont even have half the ability Benz Prime did. Benz just saw the bigger picture and the future of this game: wingers are more important than cfs.

even in his current declining state, if benz regains form, he would still style on every other cf. benz is still the complete package. too bad he is so inconsistent these days. the only he doesnt have when on form is his lost speed.

we do need a cf but not to replace big benz. just in case the guy gets injured and to give him competition.

we should focus more on wingers as based on the last 3 cls which we won and this world cup. the cf spot is becoming more and more obsolete. winger forwards are more relevant in attack. in the highest level of football, goalscoring wingers and false 9s is the winning trend.

but who knows how we play under lopetegui. sports tells me he is gonna be more am centric but based on success in the world cup and the cl, we should be doing our best reinforcing our wings as CR7 changed the importance of main threat from cf to the wings.

yall want goalscorimg cfs every year but havent you noticed that such goalscoring cfs are becoming less and less relevant as the years go by? tarnish not CR7 vs Messi. neither of them are cfs. but they have dominated talk of who is the best in the world since 2009. behind them are bale, salah (originally a cf), nerman, hazard, mbappe. with exception to mbappe though even he now plays on the wing, all the other players considered for best in the world are wingers?

our club #1 and #2 longterm targets being nerman and mbappe? how we aint even remotely interested in that trash called icardi?

gialscoring cfs at the highest level are becoming more irrelevant. at barca you got mehsshit and they're reinforcing their wing instead of reinforcing their cf spot.
at liverpool who is runner up cl, salah and mane are the main goal threats with salah being the top dog who also plays in the wing.

the world cup winners france where their main cf giroud didnt register a single goal all wc finals from group stage to the final where griezmann and mbappe tore teams to pieces. also where lewa was completely irrelevant, kane fading as england went deeper and properly getting found out.

the future of attack are goalscoring wingers. cf is losing relevancy at the highest level. barca may have won the league but they were also properly humiliated by Roma.

our club prioritizing the wing longterm over cfs should be a suprise to no one if you pay attention to tactical trends. vinicius is proof of that. though rodrygo seems very promising too ans if im not mistaken is coming in 6 months time? perhaps another reason why we aint urgent on cfs is that we already have one coming in rodrygo.

What i meant is that if you were to create a pie chart of Benzema's skills and talent, i don't think goal scoring mechanisms would compose the biggest chunk even in his best seasons.

As for modern football, i was reading an Ecos Del Balon article on Odriozola the other day where they help reiterate that in modern football the best teams want players that can do everything in the pitch, forwards that can help in link up play for example and midfielders that can do a complete job so it makes sense that forwards who can score goals but also help in link up play and defense is what produces a more complete picture for teams aspiring for 6 trophies in one year.

Atm Bale and Benz obviously still leave many doubts which is why several people here wish to acquire still a couple more "forwards" but many of the best are not acquirable this window.

At present time, "the best" aren't really that great either. It's an odd period in football we're going through.

The Madrid One wrote:What i meant is that if you were to create a pie chart of Benzema's skills and talent, i don't think goal scoring mechanisms would compose the biggest chunk even in his best seasons.

As for modern football, i was reading an Ecos Del Balon article on Odriozola the other day where they help reiterate that in modern football the best teams want players that can do everything in the pitch, forwards that can help in link up play for example and midfielders that can do a complete job so it makes sense that forwards who can score goals but also help in link up play and defense is what produces a more complete picture for teams aspiring for 6 trophies in one year.

Atm Bale and Benz obviously still leave many doubts which is why several people here wish to acquire still a couple more "forwards" but many of the best are not acquirable this window.

benz is tied #4 in cl all time top scorer with van nistelrooy who would shit on the current crop of excuses known as cfs today. he also still has the record for fastest el clasico goal ever scored. hes also one of the few select cfs to have done a perfect hattrick: both feet and header goal.

one doesnt accomplish those feets by not being a proper goalscorer. tmo, are you baiting me on purpose? i thought u left that life behind. he may not be what he used to be but if the semis and the cl were any indication, there is life in Benzema yet. i wont give up on him. Benz is a member of the legendary BBC after all. same as I wont give up on Bale. I will pray every match he doesnt get hurt. they can both produce silver and gold when on form. CR7 may be gone but we're still a force to be reckoned with.

@thimmy you mean the current crop of cfs?

Falcao in his prime shits on these pretenders. So does Van the man. Only Cavani is respectable and he has his offdays too. Lewandowski is declining but even before then he hasnt shown up big since that game us vs dortmund several years ago. Icardi is overrated, Lukaku is vastly overrated. Kane is respectable to an extent.

if you meant the current bests in the world well its difficult considering CR7 and mehsshit stand at the top whilst hazard and co. are a tier below. I remember Sports saying that Hazard disappears in whole seasons. this is very true. if it wasn't true he would be in the same discussion is Cristiano and Messi. Nerman is a slightly better robinho at best with a worse personality and a penchant for diving. some will come at me for such a controversial opinion but it has to be said. too early for salah. Mbappe is rising very quickly as prince. already better than nerman just for not being a pos and a better football iq.

After argentina being properly humiliated by france, will mehsshit finally decline?

Turok_TTZ wrote:

@thimmy you mean the current crop of cfs?

Falcao in his prime shits on these pretenders. So does Van the man. Only Cavani is respectable and he has his offdays too. Lewandowski is declining but even before then he hasnt shown up big since that game us vs dortmund several years ago. Icardi is overrated, Lukaku is vastly overrated. Kane is respectable to an extent.

if you meant the current bests in the world well its difficult considering CR7 and mehsshit stand at the top whilst hazard and co. are a tier below. I remember Sports saying that Hazard disappears in whole seasons. this is very true. if it wasn't true he would be in the same discussion is Cristiano and Messi. Nerman is a slightly better robinho at best with a worse personality and a penchant for diving. some will come at me for such a controversial opinion but it has to be said. too early for salah. Mbappe is rising very quickly as prince. already better than nerman just for not being a pos and a better  football iq.

After argentina being properly humiliated by france, will mehsshit finally decline?

Yes, I think the current crop of CFs and forwards in general, is underwhelming, and the "tier below Messi and Ronaldo" that I see people mention from time to time, is also relatively underwhelming in that there are few of them, and I think many of them haven't shown the consistency I like to think one would expect from an elite player. And it's an elite player we want, right? A prime Thierry Henry, not a prime Peter Crouch. I would love to have Cavani at the club, but he's what, 30 years old now? Who else is there? Neymar and Mbappe - same club, ain't leaving. Who else? Kane? That's it? I'm sure there are many players who may be able to effectively replace the current version of Benzema, but there aren't a whole lot of players out there that I genuinely want at the club. Half of the available ones seem like they would be a huge gamble.

It would really inject some excitement into the team, if we happen to discover a young talent who's healthy and able to somewhat pick up the mantle of the Kommander, but the only player who's even close to fitting that description is Mbappé. 3 of our most ideal targets quality-wise are at the same club. That's the state of the current crop of forwards.

oh boy, here we go again with another hypothesis ...i could have sworn that it was just in 2017 turok came up with the hypothesis about the greatness of the modern day cf (whatever that means), and now less than 2 years on, probably less than 365 days on we have a new hypothesis that the same modern day cf position, which has eclipsed old school CFs, that he championed not so long ago is now obsolete? its not even been up to 3 years since that post on here and now the modern day cf who s**** on old school CFs are now obsolete lol, like what form of disaster, evolution, or revolution occurred in such short time span for this to happen?

btw one would think there's this huge influx of goal scoring wingers, but look at the european golden shoe race and its dominated by strikers messi and cristiano are anomalies and this was a break out year for salah. just for the record, griezmann is a forward . its not like there are goal scoring wingers dominating goal scoring charts left and right to make strikers obsolete lol.

actually titosantill. the current trend adds to the modern cf and its role.

you just gave me a great idea for my next post.

I actually had 7-9 paragraphs on this post but then i realized it was too wordy and a little disorganized tbh.

I think it will be better off when I organize it better.

here's a sneak peak: actually the modern cf is still key but in relative terms. you still dont understand the point of it and how it relates to us and now with other clubs. because whether we like it or not, football evolves. and i just realized it is changing slowly but surely before our very eyes. I'm basing this on observations from the CL and the World Cup as both are the highest level of football and if you payed close attention. the role of the modern cf has become even more relevant than ever.

as for your golden shoe ofc the cfs will dominate the scoresheets. they're cfs. but the golden shoe is irrelevant. because the whole point im making is not stats but how they contribute to winning titles. we aint in this game to win topscorer awards, we're in it for titles!
tell me, in those golden shoes, how many of those cfs have won the cl in the last five years? the answer should be of no surprise. I have much more to say but i will save it for my upcoming post going much deeper into this.

and griezmann originally was a winger. he was a winger for most of his sociedad career. he only became a forward when he joined atletico. but i guess that must have slipped your mind? giroud plays cf for france. griezmann is a complete cf in that he can play all forward positions including the role in which i will discuss in the next post: the wide forward.

first you praise them in 2017, and provided a list of all these modern CFs, then july 2018 they're obsolete, then now you say their role is more relevant than ever. maybe you're right and i really don't understand the concept, because the concept seems all over the place.

then you say goal scoring wingers is where its at....the charts say other wise, then you say no, and switch from its not about goals (even though you classed them as GOAL scoring wingers), its about titles. messi and cristiano once again are anomalies. we look throughout europe and only a couple of teams have their best players as wingers...messi cristiano salah and maybe neymar.

as far as griezmann, the best football he has played has happened with him as a forward- winning the euros golden boot, the world cup, the success with atleti, not as a winger.

you're asking how many CFs have won ucl in the past 5 years? lol how many clubs have won in the past 5 years? its not a cf thing. only us and barcelona have won in the past 5 years, and both clubs have had cristiano and messi on them with relatively stacked support in many of those wins. there are too many holes in the hypothesis.

and if you're going to switch again from saying you didn't mean "goalscoring wingers" and you meant wing forwards instead, wing forwards isn't a new phenomenon, its been popular since the late 00s with the likes of ronaldinho rvp messi robben cristiano robinho etc..

titosantill wrote:first you praise them in 2017, and provided a list of all these modern CFs, then july 2018 they're obsolete, then now you say their role is more relevant than ever. maybe you're right and i really don't understand the concept, because the concept seems all over the place.

then you say goal scoring wingers is where its at....the charts say other wise, then you say no, and switch from its not about goals (even though you classed them as GOAL scoring wingers), its about titles. messi and cristiano once again are anomalies. we look throughout europe and only a couple of teams have their best players as wingers...messi cristiano salah and maybe neymar.

as far as griezmann, the best football he has played has happened with him as a forward- winning the euros golden boot, the world cup, the success with atleti, not as a winger.

you're asking how many CFs have won ucl in the past 5 years? lol how many clubs have won in the past 5 years? its not a cf thing. only us and barcelona have won in the past 5 years, and both clubs have had cristiano and messi on them with relatively stacked support in many of those wins. there are too many holes in the hypothesis.

and if you're going to switch again from saying you didn't mean "goalscoring wingers" and you meant wing forwards instead, wing forwards isn't a new phenomenon, its been popular since the late 00s with the likes of ronaldinho rvp messi robben cristiano robinho etc..

Football evolves whether we like it or not. I can be right in 2017 and be completely wrong the following year. what decides that will be explained below. now bear with me as we go in detail. I'm starting to think I wont be able to complete that post as half the time i cant get it organized as I'm almost being overwhelmed at the relevations I see the more deeper I dig into it.

First off, you got some things wrong. you ignoring the roles only taking positions into consideration. 2nd. early and late 2000 the Classic 9 was not only alive, it was thriving. a completely different time compared to now. though could make the argument in 2009 but then mourinho shut that down the following year and so did arguably spain the following WC. but for most of 2000 Classic 9 was alive and kicking.

Griezmann was a wide forward and switching between false 10 (attacking mid going wide) and a support striker/shadow striker half the time for france this world cup. what are you on about? did you miss giroud by any chance? i dont blame ya, he didnt really do anything prolific that wc but he actually did his job keeping the cbs occupied. go watch france vs argentina, belgium, croatia. You will usually find Griezmann out wide in the wings or behind Giroud as france played 4-2-3-1 mostly and sometimes a 4313/433. griezmann makes runs inside if he sees a chance for goal but for the most part isnt necessarily a forward in the sense you're describing.





unfortunately i cannot find better quality videos (couldnt find a single good video on belgium) but take note of his runs, positioning, and role. he had a great world cup and it aint by accident.

though I will admit. my ideas are all over the place. still working on my post even as I am trying to organize it.

The Modern CF used to only apply to us. no longer the case now and while it is still very limited to the most elite of clubs, it will catch on be sooner or later or until the next winner of the CL, EURO 2020, WC 2022 says otherwise.

I believe I mentioned many times here on this section in many threads that We are the standard. We are the ones who currently sit on the throne of Europe. I firmly believe the Champions League is the highest standard of football. The Domestic Leagues are not of the same standard, not even the best league in Europe is in the same standard as the CL. they're a tier below the CL. And rightfully so. you are given more room for error in the domestic league like La Liga or the EPL. not the same with the CL. you mess up, you could very well see elimination. so you have to be at your very best with what you got come the big time. as a result. Tactics have to hold up to the standard. Players can't skirt here.

I mentioned earlier in this thread how many cfs on the golden shoe have won the CL. it is not a fair thing to use that. but thats just it: The CL isn't quite that fair either. it is very strict and unforgiving. Real Madrid. Barcelona. What do they have in common? Both are known to having the very best players. also the best tactical setups. In the year Barcelona won it. was there even a classic 9 in the starting team? No. Suarez is a complete cf not restricted to the 9 role and the MSN had a synergetic attack where the role of the main goalscorer is shared between him, mehsshit and nerman as well as the responsibilities in creating chances for each other, drifting out wide, dragging cbs back, etc. for one year they were the toast of europe.

You look at us and we're have been at the pinnacle for a long time now. the toast of europe. the one true king of kings! and we have ruled from our throne without having a real classic 9 in the starting line up back in the Don Carlo era and the golden era of Zidane. though you could argue morata in carlo era but he was overlooked most of the time in favor of Benzema and mostly made sub appearances. I will admit I made a mistake when I said the Classic 9 is dead. it is not dead. it is alive... on lower levels of football it is alive. but we do not aspire to the lower levels of football and neither does barcelona. we have ambition, we have dreams. we dream of staying on top. ruling from our throne undisputed as king. the best club right now without equal. We are the standard and what gives us that right to declare that is the champions league title. the one title every player and coach dreams of winning in club football. because ultimately, the winners set the trend. the winners set the standard. the winners write the history and decide what is relevant and what is obsolete. and now we return to the point that I make.

the role and importance of the Classic 9 is not dead but its role in the highest levels of football is diminishing to a point where now the elites of the world are taking notice. Slowly but surely, football is changing. imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. and we're witnessing that right now. Liverpool the main goal threat is Salah and the team is built around him like CR7 at Real Madrid. thats why they made it all the way to the final. having the right setup and the right players in Salah and mane though having their own style and identity. PSG, its Nerman atm but sooner or later its gonna be Mbappe as Nerman aint even the best player in psg anymore. and did you take notice of his recent number change? its significant. Mbappe7 or M7. Everyone knows he idolizes CR7. That number change is symbolic in the change of his role to what its going to be now: Wide forward akin to CR7.

Juventus despite winning league title after league title is the butt of the joke in europe. but now they have the best wide forward in the world in CR7. they couldn't defeat us so they took our talisman instead or rather, he chose to leave himself. Barcelona continues to reinforce their wings rather than reinforcing the cf spot. Suarez is not getting any younger and his back up player is not really that good tbh. Barcelona realize that the wing is the key. and they have spent countless euroes trying to replace the hole nerman left.

its not just the classic 9 or the cf spot who role and importance is diminishing. but also the Attacking midfielder though not to the extent as the classic 9 but it is beginning to diminish as well.. and the reason for that is simple: the duties that come with the 9 such as being the main man in attack have been absorbed by the wide forwards/wingers thanks to cristiano ronaldo. and the duties of the AM has been absorbed by the cf spot and the cm spot respectively. which is why Benzema has been so protected all this time. why nobody comes at him in the club for his lack of goalscoring is because everyone understands the role he plays at the club. he aint the main man. that was CR7 and soon Bale. so whats his job? playing support and make life easier for the main man to grab those goals. he has a number 9 on his shirt but it should a number 10 or 23. several years ago I actually discussed with Sports about Benzema's changing role and how Benzema wanted to transition his role to that of a 10 and how that pissed off Mourinho but was welcomed and appreciated by Carlo. Mourinho always was a fool. he won a league but any madrid manager can do that. the CL is our obsession. Carlo was more than fine with Benz as according to some, Carlo always loves having an italian SS and Benzema was the closest thing to an Italian SS which is why he always had Benz's back. which is also why you see some weeks ago reports that Carlo was asking whether Benzema is available. He really loves his Italian SS. I actually wanted to see Benz sold to Carlo. Just to see what the Don himself had in mind for Benzema at Napoli and if they could stir up serie z together.

But here is my question to my own theory: Lets say I am right in all this. how is it that it came to be this way. what changed in the last 5 years that we have seen football come to this? How has Real Madrid kept the dominance for so long unchallenged?  is it because the competition was not good enough (no one is good enough compared to us) and if so: why? If classic 9s are relevant at the highest level. why havent we been knocked off our throne by a team with said classic 9? why has everyone with their own tactics, their own players with their specific roles always get eliminated by us in the CL?

What I say is validated by Real Madrid's CL triumphs. We dont use classic 9s and we force ams into the cm spot like isco and james. Kroos and modric originally ams now elite cms. unusual yet not only does it work, it took us to the top with CR7 and Bale leading the way with Benzema providing support with modric and co. It helps a lot that we have the best midfield but tarnish not in the past some of the best teams didnt have the best midfield but had better attackers. this is very true with Barcelona 2014-15.
if we go back further. Mourinho inter mid wasnt as good as barca midfield yet thanks to tactics and sheer grit, Mourinho humiliated Guardiola and denied him a consecutive cl win. eto'O was a true classic 9 yet mou played him on the wing and had another classic 9 killer in diego milito whilst sneijder was the am also dropping deep to cm providing defensive cover as mou inter was ruthlessly efficient in counters and defensive work. back when classic 9s were still relevant but eto'o out wide was very interesting. a prescursor of whats the future held? who knows...

in any case. too many questions and I'm getting tired mulling over this. Maybe this year something will change. Without CR7 we are quiite vulnerable now. Has our success been the result of sheer quality? or has it been due to tactics ahead of everyone else? or a combination of both?

I'd say both. Tactics used to be 10% of how to be successful. i think thats changed. its 50% players 50% tactics now. Mourinho had a team not so inferior yet we never managed to win the cl. the reason why is simple: mourinho is an idiot. we had the players. but the tactics were not as great and more importantly, negatively impacted by mourinho's negative approach to football. and this was proven by Carlo who won the CL right in his first year. Carlo's wisdom laid the foundation for which would setup future triumphs that would be continued by Zidane who learned from Carlo. tito might be right: cfs are still important and the classic 9 might be alive and relevant in the highest level. but so far. it has not been validated in the most important standard of club football: the CL. instead what has been validated is the rise of the Wide Forward Because CR7 has been so dominant over the years and Bale rising up as well despite his injuries. the modern cf taking hold with it as Benz changed his role to ensure he provides support for CR7 and Bale.

because the last we needed is this happening again:


This isnt the first time this happened.

This is why Benz doesn't do those runs you like and is why he changed his role. You don't get in the way of the main man. Higuain was supposed to pass that to CR7. CR7 is the better finisher. Now, Obviously CR7 was wrong to mess that attack up. He should have let higuain have it. but back then CR7 wasnt the kommander. was quite mentally immature and that cost us some matches. CR7 didnt like higuain because he kept getting in the way. CR7 after was the main goal threat. he is the main man. and the main man gets the lions share. higuain got better obviously but CR7 prefers Benz for this very reason to this day. since becoming the Kommander we all know and love, he has finally matured to understand its okay to let others have his chances but still mopes a little when someone else scores. well key point cfs who used to monopolize the space to make runs for goal has to share it now with wide forwards. surrendering the space completely even and playing a more supportive role if the wide forward is the main man.

Well Benz role might change with Bale as he aint as selfish compared to CR7 but if we want bale to be at his best. i reckon we give him as much support as possible like we did CR7. we'll see. but i dont expect a change personally with Benz but he will have to shoulder more responsibility especially when bale gets hurt. we wont truly know till the first preseason game, but it appears the plan is Benz and Bale with Bale being the new main man. Will be very interesting to see how Lopetegui changes things... Maybe the emphasis in attack will change... maybe. Will Bale try to be CR7lite or will he be his own man? who knows...

I won't say this is correct as I don't fully grasp what is going on myself. this is more of an observation more than anything. I'll most likely be proven wrong as time goes by as such is the nature of the beautiful game. Football whether we like it or not will continue to evolve and spit at our preconceived notions and theorems. Pep guardiola was hailed as a genius and now he is a fraud hipster consistently getting found out and exposed in cl.
Mourinho was a special one, now he is the ugly one. AMs and CFs used to be the best players in the world but now it is the era of wide forwards. 442/4-4-1-1 > 433 when it was 433 > 442 some years back and we played a role in that changing the opinion.

will be interesting to see how things play out in 6 months.

Oh god wtf is this shit

Mr Nick09 wrote:Oh god wtf is this shit

Madness. The musings on the evolution of football by a lunatic observer.

Turok_TTZ wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Oh god wtf is this shit

Madness. The musings on the evolution by a lunatic.

Fixed it!

What a bunch of dribble!

futbol_bill wrote:

Turok_TTZ wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Oh god wtf is this shit

Madness. The musings on the evolution by a lunatic.

Fixed it!

What a bunch of dribble!

Said by one who contributes absolutely nothing of note. if you really think so, why not share your thoughts on the tactical evolution of the beautiful game in recent years and give us insight in our teams roles and setup?

Out of everyone in this forum, you're the eldest I know and thanks to your age, you should have a much richer insight of the game having seen the days of pele and maradona. Yet you never really share anything of note. Nick tries at least at times. Babun, TMO, Sports over the years give their insight as well. but you? none that I know of. its really strange, why is that? Aren't elders supposed to share their insight with the young?

Care to share some insight on the tactical aspects of football or are you just gonna waste everyone's time with this nonsense? if you think its dribble, explain yourself and put your insight up for scrutiny by your peers. surely you have something to contribute? or is it you're full of nothing but "dribble"? either way is fine.

Cool post Turok, thanks for sharing.

In regards to why the upheaval of wide forwards i would first suggest a deep analysis of trends in football in the past to see if we are not making arguments based on faulty assumptions. I'm just putting that out there in a general sense.

One way to look at modern/total football philosophies i think is that in the past i remember that the dutch thought that players should be able to play every position on the pitch, but as time has passed a more reasonable and i think equivalent approach has risen that basically states that players should be able to have good work ethic and also be complete in their repertoire as players, aka be good athletes and technical players. This in result produces teams with good team work and more complete capabilities, and the Guardiola Barcelona team did a good job at showing this to the world. Aka Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets in midfield and Messi as a forward, then we saw this with Modric, Kroos, Benzema, etc.

Now the elite clubs want goalkeepers that can play with their feet (A Neuer as opposed to a pure shotstopper), center backs that can pass the ball (a Varane instead of a Pepe),  fullbacks that can defend well but also dribble and attack with and without meters of space (like Carvajal as opposed to an Arbeloa), midfielders that are good athletes and good technical players (like Modric as opposed to a Kroos even), forwards that can link up and drop deep, cross out wide but also drift inwards, etc.

So i guess part of it might be that in the higher elite scenarios we just see more of the cream of the crop but the lower teams will still have players that are more specific and not as complete as their roles like an Ozil or a Morata perhaps.

As for why other teams haven't beaten us some of it has to do with luck, with talent advantages, etc, there are many factors so it's good not to over exaggerate either when trying to identify trends. Like Barcelona for example, their best period was when Madrid was either not truly elite or just in the rise and it was also tied to Messi despite all their "fantastic" play but suddenly they drop off and people say its the death of tiki taka when that actually implies perspectives that are faulty imo. Barcelona also had a lot of luck and a lot of tight victories that came down to Messi making the difference one way or another.

Good post Turok.

The evolution of the CF role and forwards in general seems straightforward to me... maybe I'm being naive. All forwards today must be able to handle ALL the forward roles at a high level. Playing on both wings, holding up play, creating play, playing in support of another striker, etc.

It doesn't mean that a player doesn't specialize on certain aspects... but that added responsibility today is that players need to be able to play outside of their specialty comfortably.

CR isn't a good CF... but he can play there somewhat effectively; thus forcing the defense to pay attention. Same with Messi. Same with Griezmann. Same with Mbappe. So does Neymar if you watch him closely (he really makes excellent runs off the ball into the box to get into scoring positions). Cavani, Suarez and Lewa approach it differently... they're most comfortable in the box but can easily play lower and wide.

Morata has the right physical attributes for this too in fact but never put it together at a high enough level. Jese, before injury was perfectly multi-faceted. Just wanted to throw some castilla examples.

Even Higuain developed into much more than just a CF in his time in Italy.

In order for a team to have the widest range of tactics available to it, you cannot have a traffic cone CF as a regular player as you did in the past. You can get away with it at the NT level... but not the club level.

I completely agree that you build your attack around the biggest attacking threat... which for us was CR in terms of goalscoring. However, it's up to the manager and the supporting players to balance that with team play and allowing the others to remain effective. I think we struggled with that in terms of our forwards. But CR was so dominant that it didn't matter.

Now it matters. We can't ignore anyone on our front line anymore.

everything has just mixed everything up. we are not arguing about classic 9's that argument was last season. the issue at hand is, last season you championed the modern day CFs and gave an array of examples of forwards you considered that. then less than 365 days on, you say they're obsolete and goalscoring wingers are the in thing now, yet there are only a handful of those

and there's more reasons why we have won than whether a team had a classic 9 or not. to reduce it to that is funny to me. it has more to do with us and having someone like cristiano and other talented stars on our team than some other teams lack of a classic or modern cf. real and barcelona have cristiano and messi and both have had good supporting casts.

the higuain video is rubbish too, why the hell would you pass the ball after u've dribbled the keeper? that makes no sense. but i get it if you torture your stats long enough it will confess to anything. but once again, this wasn't even the main question i was asking. i asked a specific question about a change in less than 365 days and got an answer to a debate that was had around november of 2017.

Turok_TTZ wrote:

futbol_bill wrote:

Turok_TTZ wrote:
Madness. The musings on the evolution by a lunatic.

Fixed it!

What a bunch of dribble!

Said by one who contributes absolutely nothing of note. if you really think so, why not share your thoughts on the tactical evolution of the beautiful game in recent years and give us insight in our teams roles and setup?

Out of everyone in this forum, you're the eldest I know and thanks to your age, you should have a much richer insight of the game having seen the days of pele and maradona. Yet you never really share anything of note. Nick tries at least at times. Babun, TMO, Sports over the years give their insight as well. but you? none that I know of. its really strange, why is that? Aren't elders supposed to share their insight with the young?

Care to share some insight on the tactical aspects of football or are you just gonna waste everyone's time with this nonsense? if you think its dribble, explain yourself and put your insight up for scrutiny by your peers. surely you have something to contribute? or is it you're full of nothing but "dribble"? either way is fine.

First off, i have never proclaimed to have any expertize unlike some of you arm chair critics. I am first and foremost a fan. I can say that I don’t believe the game has evolved as you say. I certainly do not accept your theories of the modern CF and simply point to Tito’s rebuttle that has pointed out your inconsistencies.

The game has changed due to the athletes advancing. Todays athletes are bigger stronger faster and certainly more versatile. The ball is certainly a huge factor as well. I don’t see roles nor tactics evolving rather the best coaches adapt to the talent they have on hand, or in the case of Zidane who used his man management skills to utilize the experience his players had. I agree with MTO that clubs are looking for players with not only skills but versatility and they are looking for coaches that can formulate tactics based on what they have. For instance, I don’t see any difference in tactics from Cruff’s day to the tica taca of Barcelona nor today’s City. In other words, I think the game hasn’t evolved as you say rather due to better athletes, the better coaches have adjusted tactics, not evolved, adjusted.

I’ll refrain from responding to your personal opinions.

you've wisely now mixed the two in the same pot for the sake of argument. last year iirc you listed a bunch of strikers, still active and lumped them into your group of modern CFs, (and i have problems with that tag in and of itself), and how they're thriving, now you say they're obsolete and have now categorized them as classic 9's (whatever that means)

and there's no evolution, its not like last decade or two decades ago, had only fox in the box type strikers. for your rvn there was a henry, for your inzaghi there was a ronaldo for your owen there was a bergkamp your vieri a del piero....all in the same era and more. so all the talk about forwards doing more is not a new concept

I feel like this conversation about is just us moving the goalpost over and over for Benzema because even I still struggle to understand what is wrong with him.

But has the position really changed that much? If we take a set of the 10 best CF from 30 or 40 years ago I bet they are not too different from what we have seen in the past 15 years.

There can't be a conscious or thought out evolution because the schools of football across the world are all on separetae agendas.they all do seperate things and end of the day the game is influenced by the quality of 2 or 3 guys but this is not predictable

They are massively different Nick... night and day.  That's why R9 was about as revolutionary a player as there was in football.  He inspired this last generation that are in their mid 30s now.

i'll keep it simple. benz needs to start scoring, i have absolutely no problem with any other part of his game, but at the very least he needs to keep it simple and bang 15-20 goals (at the very least) because at the end of the day goals win you games. if he really can't score he should play as an attacking midfielder and tbh i don't see him playing as bad in a withdrawn role

And how many strikers in football history were like R9, that combination of height, speed, power and technique had never been seen before and except for Henry no one ever came close. Citing R9 is like naming an exception. I am talking about the top of the bracket we have seen recently like Higuain, Lewandowski, Suarez, etc...

if you are describing an athletic revolution well, I am still waiting.

My point

It was a questions of tactics... but R9 forced the door open for the modern striker.  Everyone copied him as kids and they all came to forefront in the mid 00s.

Forever, almost everyone played a 442 with a classic 10.  You had guys like Platini and Zico score a ton of goals while also being the field generals... but you never had CFs that became key playmaking players.  The only exception were Ajax and the Netherlands... but that was a complete team tactical difference where everyone needed to do a bit of everything.  As an example, when Van Basten went to Milan, he became strictly a 9 (not a poacher obviously; but in terms of his movements).

I remember leading into the 98 WC where everyone was marveling at how R9 was both a great scorer and one of the best playmakers in football too.

He created a trend that allowed for Henry to become a CF, that inspired Ibra... and opened the door for the CF position to be redefined.  Henry was a winger and a damn good one too.  He even admitted himself that he was inspired to become more of a goalscorer and push centrally by watching R9 play.

There's a reason players regard him as the best they've ever seen despite his injuries.

But what is the modern striker? what does that mean? and i will find you a player in the 80s who fit that description lol, maybe a couple.

R9 is a freak, simple as that, and as i said, there is no overarching philosophy around the world to make strikers like CR.

So even if you want to talk about tactics, who today fits that description of creator? there are not enough for it to be a trend. Because i would ask you to show me 5 under 23 CFs who are the next gen complete strikers

Players become as good as their talent allow them to be, it's always about talent, because as much as peter crouch could have wanted he was never becoming like Ibra. I mean, you look at a young Icardi, the dude comes straight from the falcao line of CF lol. He can wish to be as good as R9 that is not happening.

I am sorry i just dont see it, all the guys that you named, R9, Henry, they are exceptional players, not regular greats of their times.