Referendums in Catalonia and Kurdistan

My opinion is and has been clear, catalan people should have the right to discuss a peaceful exit from Spain. Your solution would fulfill the second sine qua non condition i was talking about 1 or 2 posts before.

However, i can't help but see your solution as a monumental loss of time. You are asking the parliament to dissolve itself, of course they will resist. The time of negociations is right now.

Only Madrid government who fears losing the centralized power and they create a big mess out of it. Catalonia has made its choice i believe.

Warrior wrote:My opinion is and has been clear, catalan people should have the right to discuss a peaceful exit from Spain. Your solution would fulfill the second sine qua non condition i was talking about 1 or 2 posts before.

However, i can't help but see your solution as a monumental loss of time. You are asking the parliament to dissolve itself, of course they will resist. The time of negociations is right now.

Only Madrid government who fears losing the centralized power and they create a big mess out of it. Catalonia has made its choice i believe.

The truth cannot be hidden under the carpet for long. My point is, the current Catalan gouvernment doesn't have the mandate they speak of (the majourity of the Catalans backing them for session). If the people are truly backing them with a majourity, they would rise in a reelection stronger. It's not like Puigdemont cannot be elected again. He doesn't go to jail.

futbol wrote:In general and especially in the case of Catalunya I'm against secession.

Catalunya aren't a supressed region. They are an autonomous region with their own language, rules, parliament, police unites etc. If every region of a state that feels "we're rich and paying too much for the rest of the country" wants indepence the world will be back to scattered regionalism pre 19th century.

Total corrupt upper half in Catalunia wants to escape persecution by law after 2018. I don't have another explanation for their haste.

rincon wrote:

Warrior wrote:Corrupt politicians who serve a nationalist propaganda to the people for the sake of their own interests is another thing. That's not righteous.

That's why i asked

"what is the proportion of catalan people inside Catalonia ? And of them what is the proportion that voted "yes" ?"

I'm not sure I understand that question, do you mean what proportion of people was born there as opposed to moved there?

I'm sure you can find numbers around. If its a cultural question then its harder to answer, as its entirely up to each person what being a Catalan means (past being born in Catalonia).

There is no "ethnic Catalan" that is different from a Valencian or an Andorran, or basically anyone from the peninsula and south of France. So its pretty much 100% up to a person what they consider themselves to be there. Other than of course having the papers that say you reside in Catalonia, as that is all that being Catalan means legally.

i meant people who lived there all their life and speak catalan, have strong ties to Catalonia before Spain

people like Piqué i would call them ethinc catalan but maybe you have other terms,

compared to
foreigners born elsewhere in Spain who only reside there for work and have the right to vote + foreigners from immigration... basically anyone for whomstdve the referendum is not a major issue, and would by all logic vote NO only to avoid dealing with all the changes independance would imply

That's entirely subjective. Numbers like that you can never get. One of my best friends is from Barcelona (his family is from there as well) and doesn't speak Catalan, as well as a friend's grandma from a small town that only speaks Catalan (no Spanish). Both are just as Catalan.

Relative to almost every other Spanish region, they have no claim to independence other than tax evasion. Its hilarious that the government even cite that as a reason themselves.

@Rincon there is definitely such a thing as a catalan ethnic group. Not sure how you can deny that.

@BC

Yes but that doesn't quite fit the modern borders or denomination. The Catalan ethnic group depends on which time period you use to define their culture and geography, as their regional borders have changed a lot through history.

In that sense, the Catalan ethnic group is not limited to modern day Catalonia if you follow it thoroughly. The identity evolved in a similar way as for people in Valencia for example. Or the south of France, or Andorra, or even certain parts of Italy. As they were all one, and all have people speaking Catalan today.

If the ethnic group of Catalans (lets say the peoples as a whole, not today's region) were to seek independence based on those grounds then things get a lot more complicated. Would people from the greater area around today's Catalonia get a vote and a choice to changed citizenship? In the current case, no, as it is delimited purely by the political border. So if you look at it from the perspective of an ethnic group declaring independence, what you get is part of an ethnic group declaring independence from other parts of their same ethnic group that lives in the regions that will surround their new country. Furthermore, Catalonia today is comprised of very diverse peoples who all have the same rights. So you get quite the diluted "ethnic" pool breaking away from the same ethnic group. Even the "historic" Catalan is diverse, as the region was passed from occupying kindgom/empire to the next over and over.

If you want an independent Catalan territory based on ethnicity then you might have to look back and take half of what made up the kingdom of Aragon. But its not the case, its half assed shoehorned to fit a narrative. Which, also, probably makes it better. If they were actually pushing for independence based on ethnicity you would have quite the racist argument in your hands, specially since Barcelona is a melting pot. Junqueras actually went there, when he mentioned the "Catalan DNA" ( ) but for the most part they haven't, and for good measure.

Spain's autonomous regions all have a history drawn in similar lines. And just as similarly, their ethnic groups are a big mix of many things, including one another.

Does Catalonia have a better claim to independence than Euskadi, Extremadura or Valencia? in terms of identity or ethnicity sure as hell no. Not even in terms of language, as every region not named Castilla has had their language take a backseat to "Spanish". In the end, Catalonia is an original member of Spain since its inception, and its identity has been historical shaped by that, as it has other regions in Spain. If Catalonia was poor atm, would Puidgemont and co. seek independence this rashly?

Ok i agree with a lot of that but feel like we are staying from the original claim. There are definitely a group of people who think of themselves as Catalan, who speak Catalán, who share Catalan values, history and culture and who predominantly live in Catalonia. These people constitute an ethnic group.

Now, whether they should declare independence based off this ethnicity is a separate issue, and it would be quite muddled if they went this route as opposed to the existing borders of Catalonia. But that's not really what I was getting at, nor what they are doing.

My claim was that it wasn't different from neighbouring groups. This region of Spain is tiny, with short distances and long histories they share a lot. So I meant that there is no Catalan different group just because they are within the borders of the current region. It's the same group that a fee kilometres away is called a different name. It's more organic than political.

Puchi, everything goes bad, all the banks, businesses are leaving, we can't get International support, for God, or that I would have looked at you one-eyed.

The Catalonians are *bleep* morons tbh

It's not over yet! Today's statement only makes it much more difficult to get any discussions underway. Meanwhile the list of companies fleeing is mounting. Already leaving are CaixaBank, Gas Natural Fenosa, Banco Sabadell, Agbar, Colonial, MRW, Cellnex, Criteria, Lleida.net, Banco Mediolanum, Service Point, GVC Gaesco, Catalana Occidente, Dogi or Derby Hotels. And about to announce are Catalana Occidente, eDreams and Indukern. and said to be considering are Penguin Random House, el grupo vitivinícola Freixenet, la inmobiliaria Renta Corporación, Caixa d'Enginyers or Idilia Foods. REgardless of whether they become independent, their economy has just suffered a sever blow and yet there is still more to come.

Not sure if anyone here is following speeches etc today, but I believe we can pretty well see what is going to be the outcome of all this independence talk.

Rajoy has demanded Puigdemont clarify his statements from yesterday. Has he declared Independence or not. He has said the people deserve certainty and they can't allow his unclear intentions to prolong the uncertainty. He also has said there will be no negotiations about a declaration over an illegal act.

All the major parties are in agreement with Rajoy.

They will be enacting article 155, the moment Puigdemont clarifies his independence statement. That means the Catalan government will be dissolved, the central government taking over, likely with new elections called and probably that Puigdemont off to jail (or Puigdemont retracts)

Meanwhile the major parties are in agreement that they will look to revise constitution for all regions to hopefully satisfy Catalans requests (legitimate). Likely outcome is restoring much of the autonomy they have been requesting.

So it will take time, but it now seems clearer, that this independence movement will settle down.

However, there still are a few delicate details to work out.
One of the autonomy request is more control over their finances. It was withdrawn primarily because of the corrupt politicians. It begins with the ridiculous salaries of politicians and goes on to the money laundering, public fund theft and tax evasion. We will get some answers in 2018 with bank secrecy ending, but a lot of this simply will not get rectified in short term.
The second issue to their economy which has been permanently damaged with the exodus of many many companies to elsewhere in Spain. Their misstatement of contribution to Spanish EDP which was over inflated to begin with has taken a permanent deep dive.
And finally they need to do something about the culture of tax evasion that is so pervasive in Cataluña, as we futbol fans have seen so regularly at Barca.

So in conclusion, we futbol fans can take a step back and recognize that from a futbol perspective, nothing is going to change. Here´s looking at you Harmonica!!

Seems like the catalans have really backed themselves into a corner here. It's like they never stopped to think "ok we declare independence, then what?"

US is horribly dealing the situation in Iraq and with the Kurds. They publicly denounced the referendum, which pretty much gave Turkey, Iran, and Iraq to take extreme measures against them. Iraq is using US weapons that was intended for the use against Isis now targeting kurds with it. They allowed Iran to cross the border into Iraq to help Iraq government to secure kirkuk and other strategic towns.

Not only is this is a horrible way to treat your 2nd closest ally in the region. But this is extremely short sighted. You have basically built the bridge for a strong influence of Iran government in Iraq, and once Iraq doesn't need US they will turn against them and show their true colors. Iraq will chose Iran because they are a natural ally due to their religion(shia) and border, and natural enemies such as the kurds and Sunni.

US has spent almost 2 trillion dollars in Iraq and never mind the American lives that has been lost fighting in in that country, only to result in losing the country to Iran and having another hostile government in that region.

That is bad.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/26/inenglish/1509015415_232297.html

Catalonia has rejected early elections, forcing Spain to either reveal their bluff or go in with a military intervention

It’s not military intervention!

You send the military in and force early elections, what else would you call it? Seems like arguing about semantics to me

The government declares independence and immediately the Senate approves the implementation of article 155. Catalonia soon to lose their autonomy when Rajoy decides to enforce it.

So they are independent?

Yes.

Rajoy has to tread a very fine line. Right now only about 55% of catalans actually want independence, if he over reacts that number could grow a lot.

He is. He already has called for new elections in December. They don't want to rule Cataluña, they want an elected parliament to respect the laws of the land.

Today´s parliament vote for independence is once again a farce. The opposition walked out because the vote was not only insignificant, it was illegal (that´s why they did it as a secret vote!!) . Has anyone ever heard of a secret parliament vote?

so you have an illegal referendum abandoned by 60% of Catalans as a basis for them to have once again an illegal vote that got 52% of possible votes by a overly weighted pro independence politicians.

and the worst of all this is the lies it is the basis for this independence talk. Don´t believe me! Read some of the articles in El Pais (you can read them in English).

And to top it off, Madrid has to go deep into Cataluña this Sunday. Wait to see what violence Harmonica and company dig up for that!

They have acted as cautious as can be prudent. They proposed elections before. They proposed to de-escalate the whole thing when Puidgemont declared and suspended independence. They proposed that Catalonia held their own elections then again. Now they refused to hold their owm elections and declared independence unilaterally (not only relative to the rest of Spain, but to the Catalan opposition) in the face of everything that happened.

It's high time Spain acted.

Rajoy announces the dissolution of the Catalan parliament. Elections on December 21st.

No one is going to recognise Catalan as an independent country.


No one relevant anyways.