Re: FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid

by VanDeezNuts Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:28 pm

Adit wrote:How about the tactics though? When only one player had a good game out of eleven then the tactics are wrong. It took Zidane so long to sub.

Modric, Kovacic, Isco, Varane, Marcelo and Lucas all had great games imo. If you remember, we dominated the first half, Barca came back in the second and got a goal that should have been disallowed.

We had the chances that could have put this game away early, it's not ZZ's fault we didn't finish our dinner.

sportsczy wrote:We got a draw at Camp Nou and people are upset...

RM fans. I can understand a bit, because we did dominate the first half and could have/ should have put the match away in 45 minutes, however Barca played much better in the second - The result in the end I think is fair even though Suarez was offside.

by Pedram Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:35 pm

Happy with the draw, Ramos saved our asses again.

We really need to offload Benzema, such a awful player.

by SuperMAG Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:04 pm

tbh i donno why is turning a blind eye to vasquez, i mean he does nothing attackingly, even his defending is not that of a RM, its of a RWB. He is never close enough to fullback to pressure him, always causing confusions with carvajal, and carvajal is doing the same attacking stuff as vasquez.

Last couple of game he has been poor, he is good as a sub but not a starter in madrid. lets try assensio there.

by halamadrid2 Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:19 pm

@Deez, ZZ deserves every criticism that comes his way today because:

1-Team selection was wrong. We should have started Ronaldo at CF and played with an extra midfielder like against Atleti
2- We were sitting back in the second half allowing Barca to rotate the ball with nobody pressing their CBs but Ronaldo. As soon as Mariano came in their CBs started to clear the ball under pressure. Wonder why
3-His subs where like WTF. Isco for Casemiro Suspect

like seriously. We lost the midfield completely as soon as Isco went off
4-The Mariano sub came too late similar to Morata against Dortmund. Difference is ZZ wasn't saved by anyone then

All in all these points all have a common denominator.....

by futbol_bill Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:22 pm

titosantill wrote:lol yes i am dismissing mariano a bit easily. a second leg game against cultural where we won the first leg by five or six goals is different from starting against barcelona or any top league side. mariano will have to work his way up slowly. he can come on as a sub and impress, no doubt. but to suggest that benzema should play third fiddle to mariano is pushing it

i get it, we don't like the way he's been playing. i totally understand that, but come on, let's be serious, you think mariano right now should be ahead of benzema? in a years time, two years time, three, maybe. but right now, i don't think so. he can get some games, but not benz playing second fiddle to him.....and zidane gets to see mariano and all those boys play and train more than we do

No more so than with Morata. Both are subs but play with energy something that Benz seems incapable of. I did say first choice is Ronaldo and to be realistic that is what the lineup against better teams should be, let Mariano or Morata when he's available come on later in game. For now unless it's a smaller team or perhaps the world club championship is where Benz should play. But clearly the onus has to be on Benz to earn that starting position.

by halamadrid2 Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:22 pm

Lol blaming Lucas. The boy only had the most key passes, could have won a penalty and could've had an assist....... nothing major lol

by VanDeezNuts Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:53 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:@Deez, ZZ deserves every criticism that comes his way today because:

1-Team selection was wrong. We should have started Ronaldo at CF and played with an extra midfielder like against Atleti
2- We were sitting back in the second half allowing Barca to rotate the ball with nobody pressing their CBs but Ronaldo. As soon as Mariano came in their CBs started to clear the ball under pressure. Wonder why
3-His subs where like WTF. Isco for Casemiro like seriously. We lost the midfield completely as soon as Isco went off
4-The Mariano sub came too late similar to Morata against Dortmund. Difference is ZZ wasn't saved by anyone then

All in all these points all have a common denominator.....

1. We didn't need an extra midfielder. We bossed the midfield. I didn't know Rakitic or Gomes were even on the pitch. Busquets did play very well though- best Barca player imo today.

2. No team can press Barca the way we did for the full 90 minutes. We would have been absolutely shredded by minute 65 if we kept pressing them. It's smart to be more conservative at times and hold well defensively to give your midfield a rest.

3. Isco being subbed was a question mark for me. Thankfully Casemiro was on the pitch though or we would have lost the match in the final minute.

4. Mariano didn't really provide anything for me, imo. His sub whether early, on time, or late wouldn't/ didn't influence the scoreline. Kovacic influenced the game more.

ZZ set us up to win today, and we had the better of the chances. A draw at Camp Nou is not a bad result when you are top of the table and Barca trail by 6.

by futbol_bill Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:01 pm

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how our left side held up. The side that Messi is supposedly playing. For all the criticism(defense) that is normally directed at both Marcelo and Ronaldo, the left side was well defended today.

by halamadrid2 Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:33 pm

vanDEEZ wrote:
halamadrid2 wrote:@Deez, ZZ deserves every criticism that comes his way today because:

1-Team selection was wrong. We should have started Ronaldo at CF and played with an extra midfielder like against Atleti

2- We were sitting back in the second half allowing Barca to rotate the ball with nobody pressing their CBs but Ronaldo. As soon as Mariano came in their CBs started to clear the ball under pressure. Wonder why
3-His subs where like WTF. Isco for Casemiro like seriously. We lost the midfield completely as soon as Isco went off
4-The Mariano sub came too late similar to Morata against Dortmund. Difference is ZZ wasn't saved by anyone then

All in all these points all have a common denominator.....

1. We didn't need an extra midfielder. We bossed the midfield. I didn't know Rakitic or Gomes were even on the pitch. Busquets did play very well though- best Barca player imo today.

2. No team can press Barca the way we did for the full 90 minutes. We would have been absolutely shredded by minute 65 if we kept pressing them. It's smart to be more conservative at times and hold well defensively to give your midfield a rest.

3. Isco being subbed was a question mark for me. Thankfully Casemiro was on the pitch though or we would have lost the match in the final minute.

4. Mariano didn't really provide anything for me, imo. His sub whether early, on time, or late wouldn't/ didn't influence the scoreline. Kovacic influenced the game more.

ZZ set us up to win today, and we had the better of the chances. A draw at Camp Nou is not a bad result when you are top of the table and Barca trail by 6.

1-Given the players available and their forms yes it was imperative that we put an extra midfielder in there especially considering our clean sheet record. We needed a DM to let Kova and Modric play their natural and not act like glorified DMs

2-Oh we have plenty of games with better pressing than I saw in this game. I didn't mind the no press approach in the first half because they created nothing and we created some chances. But even after they scored I saw no urgency until Mariano came on and started pressing their CBs forcing them into making mistakes

4- You are kidding right?

by Jack Daniels Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:24 am

sportsczy wrote:We got a draw at Camp Nou and people are upset...

I know right? It's the Camp Nou ffs not to mention that we are plagued with injuries.

I remember a few years back when going home with a point in the Camp Nou seems like a victory to everyone else.

by phenom Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:56 am

^ exactly
Looking at the comments here it feels like we got a trashing!
We were playing Barcelona at the camp noue not some relegation team
The win against athletico spoilt people here lol
Good result
Now try and hold the point difference until the winter break

by halamadrid2 Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:39 am

Barca are worse than Atleti, they had no Iniesta in the first half and their CBs ALWAYS make mistakes under pressure. We didn't capitalise on any of that and in the end had to rely on a last min goal to scrape a draw. Ramos' goal papered over ZZ flopping this game from his choice of starting line up to those subs in the second half. ZZ is a lovely coach who got his tactics spot on against Atleti but decided to throw all that away yesterday. He got it all wrong but still managed to get a draw

In other news, Marca are ripping Benz to shreds calling him a blackhole and bemoaning us having to play with 10 men. Exactly the criticism we give him. Hopefully he gets dropped pronto. It's funny how James never gets a look in because a proposed lack of effort but Benz can move about like he is carrying concrete and still start. Bit of a double standard there

When Kroos and Morata come back its going to be interesting how we line up. Kova has been excellent, Modric is Modric, Casemiro is back. Morata is awesome and Kroos is the best midfielder in Europe Shocked

by shadexticos Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:51 am

Are you guys aware that even when we have been on hot streaks, barcelona still thrash us.
We had a draw at Camp Nou for Christ sake, that is something to be proud of.
This is barca, and all our plans usually go out the window against them but not this time around.

But i get the pain.
Benzema was awful, but who could have predicted. He produces his best performances against Barcelona and in UCL.
The problem I have with ZZ is not with starting Benzema, but not subbing him off since the 60th minute.

I am not a big Ronaldo fan but Ronaldo was starved of service and he still managed to produce some magic.

Casemiro for Isco was a good sub; isco could not mark effectively because he was on a yellow card. We had to sacrifice some offensive strength for defensive stability.

The result was good enough, you guys should stop crying.

Let's just hope Benzema gets benched because unlike Ronaldo or Bale, i do not see Benzema ever bouncing back again, he looks permanently lost.

by shadexticos Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:59 am

@halamadrid
We have not lost anything since kroos' injury. Kroos' input to the team is overrated
I may get a lot of stones pelted my way, but i prefer Kovacic to kroos. He is more mobile, releases the ball quicker, spreads the play maybe a tad not as effective as kroos, provides better defensive balance and gives us those piercing runs through the middle that we have been missing since Di maria.

To be honest, the only injury that has affected us is Bale.
He is so instrumental our flexibility in terms of formation.

A Ronaldo injury will affect us too.

We have coped without varane, pepe, ramos, modric, casemiro, kroos, isco, benzema.

by The Demon of Carthage Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:04 am

Suarez's goal:
FC Barcelona vs Real Madrid - Page 6 1480783235_352725_1480784368_noticia_normal

by halamadrid2 Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:07 am

The fact that we have to zoom in to see the offside tells us there is no way a linesman could have spotted that in the game. Similar to Ramos' goal against Atleti

@Shade, I understand your view but I felt they were there for the taking but we couldn't capitalise. The yellow to Isco as a reason for subbing him off is nonsense. Carvajal had a yellow and was up against the biggest crybaby diver the game has ever seen and he was fine. I could understand if we sacrified him because we needed Kovacic' speed in transition but never because of the yellow.

Trust me I am content with the draw but I feel we got it inspite of our manager screwing up. He did the same against Dortmund and then against Legia. I love him as our coach but he is screwing up with the team selection and we are paying for it

Kroos dictates the tempo of games. He is press resistant and could get the ball where he wants with his eyes closed. I feel had Kroos played, Iniesta coming on would've been moot because not only is he good at pressing players he can also start counters by switching wings within a blink of an eye. I am ecstatic he is back

I agree we have weathered these injuries quite well. I feel if we start a proper goalscoring CF, Bale not playing will become less of an issue. Our biggest one was Casemiro being unavailable but now he is back and it's time to get some clean sheets going starting from Wednesday

by The Demon of Carthage Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:15 am

http://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2016/12/04/5843dc0f46163f68578b45f8.html

Not really surprised with this article. In fact, I think it was long overdue.

No physicality, he lost ten balls, and when he had a very clear chance, Jordi Alba had time to react and take the ball.

On Saturday afternoon, he was subbed after 77 minutes and Real were more of a threat up front once Marco Asensio went wide and Cristiano Ronaldo played centrally.

Even Mariano Diaz looked more menacing in the five minutes he played.

by halamadrid2 Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:22 am

Music to ZZ' ears unfortunately

by titosantill Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:39 pm

10 balls lost, that's crazy, i knew he didn't have a good game but TEN? especially when you consider he hardly does any dribble moves, so you're losing ten balls from short close range passes, and few dribble attempts? that's a lot from someone who hardly executes dribble moves. even from people who love doing step overs at every turn, ten is still too much. i wonder if its turn overs or they mean he couldn't reach/react to ten passes on time? either way, both are still bad

by Doc Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:08 pm

I can't see how that is true. How can a forward have 10 turnovers? A non dribbling, not that quick forward mind you.

by Mr Nick09 Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:12 pm

Please leave Benzema alone Proud

by halamadrid2 Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:45 pm

So I saw the average positions of our players, out of disgust I thought I'd measure them against our 2 reference performances this season.

Average positions iin our best game this season (vs LaReal at the Anoeta), as you can see we have lined up in a nice 4141 shape, with Casemiro protecting the defence and the mids covering the whole width of the pitch. Result: A magical performance with LaReal not having a single sniff at our goal.

Spoiler:

Average position in our second best game this season. Again you can clearly make our our formation, Kovacic doing the Casemiro role, albeit not as well but he doesnt need to when we have players at every corner of the pitch. Result: super performance, finally breaking our Calderon duck

Spoiler:

Then we have this cluster feck. Like wtf scratch

Is Marcelo the LB or the LW???? And no it's not Ronaldo's fault

Spoiler:

by Doc Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:59 pm

Yeah, Marcelo was out of position quite a lot but he and we never really got punished for it due to Messi's positioning. If you wondering what exactly he was doing (without actually berating his performance):

http://www.totalbarca.com/2016/12/messis-lack-position-breaking-system-clasico-thoughts-gifs/

Telling how vital a left winger or something who can pull wide left is for Zidane's tactics. Asensio and Bale respectfully played that role nicely. Benzema being a CF can't/won't pull wide to give any width so Marcelo had to be our left winger which left a gaping chasm of space which Barcelona did not utilise at all.

Isco was always gonna drift in the centre and try to go out wide but off the ball, he was in the centre most of the time.

by halamadrid2 Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:12 pm

Ronaldo and Benzema are practically on top of each other. I don't even know what formation we played based on that image. Was it a 433 if so why is Isco playing in the center furthest down or was it a 4411 in which case why don't we have a LW out there. Messi might have let Marcelo get away but what about us not targeting Roberto?? I just dont get the tactics or formation for this game

by VanDeezNuts Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:18 pm

You do realize the evidence you presented looks almost identical to the so called "best" performances with marcelo playing a bit further up.

That's really beside the point anyway- our players are going to be in different positions given different opposition.

Barca don't play the same way as La Real, or Atletico so player heat maps are going to look different given the situation.

Let's sum this up because arguments are starting to become circular.

We got a point away at Camp Nou against Barca who are in second place. We are 6 points clear at the top. Barcelona, though they had their weaknesses, we had injuries to two of our most impactful players this season (imo), plus Morata who would have no doubt been subbed in or maybe started, not to mention Casemiro wasn't fully fit.

Those are the facts. When I look at the facts I don't get angry and post negative things on an internet forum. In my opinion RM played well given the conditions. We could have won, sure, if that penalty was called in the early minutes of the game things would have been different. Overall we dominated the majority of the first half, and Barca came back in the second and exposed some of the fatigue of the RM players. I think a draw was a fair result (one that highly favors us).

by Doc Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:26 pm

I think we have all acknowledge that Deez. 6 point gap, a draw at the Camp Nou and not even at full strength. Lovely stuff. This is just a deeper look at what could have been/nitpicking/Hala being bored.

Also, it is identical until you view the left side of each map. Marcelo is always supported by someone on the left in the 1st two maps. The one against Barcelona, Marcelo is literally by himself which is odd to me considering Zidane usually likes to have a stable approach in more challenging games.

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