Is Pep correct to oust Hart?

VivaStPauli wrote:

free_cat wrote:

danyjr wrote:Bravo is an upgrade on all fronts compared to Hart, it is not even just about ball playing skills.

Having said that the obsession of Guardiola is something to be wary of. I personally hope he doesn't succeed at City, much like I really enjoyed his miserable stint at Bayern.

Miserabls stint at Bayern.

He just was the most successful coach they ever had in 3 seasons.

If you mean that Pep was the most successful coach Bayern ever had in those 3 seasons he was there, I actually agree.

sportsczy wrote:ffs, Pep is not the most "successful" coach in Bayern history...  just based on facts alone:

Lattek - 9 seasons
6 Bundi titles
3 Cups
1 CL
1.11 trophies per season

Hitzfeld - 7 seasons
5 Bundi titles
4 Cups
1 CL
1.43 trophies per season

Heynckes -  6 seasons
3 Bundi
1 Cup
1 CL
0.83 trophies per season

Pep - 3 seasons
3 Bundi
1 Cup
1.33 trophies per season

IMO, CL trumps Bundi...  especially in today's Bundi that is non-competitive.  Hitzfeld is the most "successful" if you're just looking at major trophy stats anyhow.

And please don't bring up the garbage supercups, cwc and other nonsense.

2 Cups

sportsczy wrote:ffs, Pep is not the most "successful" coach in Bayern history...  just based on facts alone:

Lattek - 9 seasons
6 Bundi titles
3 Cups
1 CL
1.11 trophies per season

Hitzfeld - 7 seasons
5 Bundi titles
4 Cups
1 CL
1.43 trophies per season

Heynckes -  6 seasons
3 Bundi
1 Cup
1 CL
0.83 trophies per season

Pep - 3 seasons
3 Bundi
1 Cup
1.33 trophies per season

IMO, CL trumps Bundi...  especially in today's Bundi that is non-competitive.  Hitzfeld is the most "successful" if you're just looking at major trophy stats anyhow.

And please don't bring up the garbage supercups, cwc and other nonsense.

Pep won 2 cups.

Pep was the best domestic coach we have had, in terms of results, since Lattek.

Personally I think this keeper switch is not going to help City at all

Also kinda gutted if Everton do borrow the cash to hire Hart, he'd be class for them.

The keeper switch is going to help them without a doubt. The GK under Pep has a lot more ground to oversee, it's better to have someone used to sweeping behind a high line, apart from the aforementioned passing stuff.

Not that they wouldn't have won the league with Hart, too, easily.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Pep was the best domestic coach we have had, in terms of results, since Lattek.

When was the last time the new Bayern coach was handed a dominant treble-winning team?  Or do most new Bayern managers take the job after the team is playing badly and they need a change... or that there's some level of dysfunction at some level of the club... so there's some level of rebuilding to do?

I think the domestic league was handed to Pep on a platter.  He would have been a complete fraud if he'd lost Bundi.  He's not a fraud.  But he's not one of the best managers, league or otherwise, that Bayern has had.

Bayern can hire Brocchi and they'll still win Bundi lmao

Can people stop trying to turn this into a "discussion of Pep at Bayern" thread, it's been done to death at this point and it's annoying really.

Bravo is better than Hart in most aspects of goalkeeping, so yes it is the correct move. Moreover, as others have noted, he fits Pep's philosophy much better. This is a good move for Pep no doubt. It's a bit too bad for Hart but he could have tried to learn to play Pep's way and decided not to

sportsczy wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:Pep was the best domestic coach we have had, in terms of results, since Lattek.

When was the last time the new Bayern coach was handed a dominant treble-winning team?  Or do most new Bayern managers take the job after the team is playing badly and they need a change... or that there's some level of dysfunction at some level of the club... so there's some level of rebuilding to do?

I think the domestic league was handed to Pep on a platter.  He would have been a complete fraud if he'd lost Bundi.  He's not a fraud.  But he's not one of the best managers, league or otherwise, that Bayern has had.

It's just a statement of fact. 3 seasons, 2 doubles and another league title.
Point tally 90 points, 79 points, 88 points.
That is 2nd, 3rd, and 5th of the best seasons ever played since the introduction of the 3 point count (Jupp's 12/13 is 1st with 91, Klopp's 11/12 4th with 81).
I can add to the enumeration of records with unbeaten runs, goals scored, goals conceded, but why bother.

If you want to go ahead and add all kinds of circumstantial arguments why that isn't a great performance by Pep, I can't stop you. Fire away

Bottom line is, Pep is a monster of a league coach, and he will of course confirm that in the Pl too. Why wouldn't he.

Because he doesn't have an overwhelming talent advantage and his crazy experiments will lead to his team losing points in EPL... which will cost him the league until he becomes pragmatic.

sportsczy wrote:Because he doesn't have an overwhelming talent advantage and his crazy experiments will lead to his team losing points in EPL... which will cost him the league until he becomes pragmatic.

He has an overwhelming talent advantage and his so called 'experiments' lead to him being the most consistently successful coach

But it's ok, we can talk after the season.

I fear for Guardiola I really do should Agüero get injured.

Hans, the way you defend Guardiola times and times again by mentioning his bundesliga record is really cute. I know you don't wanna admit that his tenure was a failure but don't worry brah, you're in the good hands of Don Carletto now. He's going to heal your wounds

danyjr wrote:I fear for Guardiola I really do should Agüero get injured.

Hans, the way you defend Guardiola times and times again by mentioning his bundesliga record is really cute. I know you don't wanna admit that his tenure was a failure but don't worry brah, you're in the good hands of Don Carletto now. He's going to heal your wounds

You can think it's cute or whatever, it just always baffles me again how a guy can, with Bayern, play the two seasons with least goals conceded in the league's history in a row yet somehow it seems to come natural to quite some people to say stuff like he 'needs to stop his experiments and become pragmatic'.
It's like people live in some alternate universe.

Hapless_Hans wrote:The keeper switch is going to help them without a doubt. The GK under Pep has a lot more ground to oversee, it's better to have someone used to sweeping behind a high line, apart from the aforementioned passing stuff.

I simply find this aspect of the GK's game overrated in today's game. It's very, very few points that you win thanks to your keeper being good with his feet.

Art Morte wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:The keeper switch is going to help them without a doubt. The GK under Pep has a lot more ground to oversee, it's better to have someone used to sweeping behind a high line, apart from the aforementioned passing stuff.

I simply find this aspect of the GK's game overrated in today's game. It's very, very few points that you win thanks to your keeper being good with his feet.

And how exactly would you be able to quantify that?

Bottom line is Pep has requirements for how his keeper plays, part of the whole team's approach which is very successful.
It's normal that coaches prefer, say, one midfielder over another. In this case, it happens to ba a GK. Let's not pretend that Hart didn't have it coming.

Yes because Bravo is better at everything. He's dumping him for a superior goalie.

Yes. Pep is wrong 99 % of the time but this time he is correct. Hart sucks and Bravo is great.

Art Morte wrote:Personally I think this keeper switch is not going to help City at all

Why? The goalkeepers are the first attackers. They start the play. Most top teams build from the back. No negatives exist in having a goalie who is good with the ball at his feet. I can’t say the same when the goalie is crappy with the ball.

Pep has his style and City hired him for that style. Bravo is a better shot stopper than Hart, and aside from Ter Stegen and Neuer which top goalie is better with the ball at his feet? He’s the best signing City could do, and it was an upgrade on all fronts.

If City is under intense high pressure, a goalie who is comfortable with the ball can aid the team in playing out of that pressure. Ball-playing goalies body position themselves in a way that creates passing angles under pressure. I don’t understand how you think it wouldn’t help. Look at the following situations:

City is under high pressure:
Bravo holds the ball just long enough to get one of the opposing strikers who were formerly marking one of the CB to run towards him. Bravo can scoop the ball cooly over that defender’s head, and City will have a free CB who can run with the ball. City has slightly disorganized the opposition’s press, and that will help them in transitioning forwards.

Say, an open player is on the wing. If Bravo can get the ball to that player on the wing, the winger can turn with the ball and attack directly. City has disorganized the opposition’s press, and they can counter attack. Chances are they also have a numerical advantage.

If City is under intense high pressure and they can’t build up from the back, a good ball playing goalie can pick out the striker who can lay it off to a free midfielder/winger.

When City isn't under pressure:
If City is facing a team that is sitting back, then they can calmly build from the back. A good ball playing goalie can make a smart pass which will lead to a cleaner build up. Good build up allows City’s attacking players to be in position, and counter attacks against them become much harder.

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I named the most common situations, but surely you can see now, why building from the back and having a ball playing goalie is an advantage. Assuming the team is under high pressure, and there is a free man, they can pick that player out and transition quickly. If they’re able to build patiently from goalie -> defenders -> midfielders -> attackers, counter-attacking against them becomes much harder as the players are in the correct positions to stop them.

As I said before, this isn't even a Pep/Barca thing. Almost all top teams build from the back. Maybe, not as incessantly as Pep does, but building from the back has more advantages than it does disadvantages. So, yes, Bravo's signing will considerably help City's attacking and defensive play.

Nice post Cas.

Bravo isn't gonna help City substantially lmao, pointless signing

You need grit and steel to win the PL, not a keeper being able to use both his feet to pass from the back

Especially if both his feet are frozen to the ground on a cold night at the Britannia..!

Ridiculous how underrated bravo is.

Hart's stronger than Bravo but he's beat everywhere else. I see nothing wrong with this decision. So far, anyway.

he was given the job before the season was over, he must have watched hart to know whether or not he wants him. i agree with many people on here that the whole "goalie should be able to use his feet" thing is overstated and isn't of huge significance in getting points let alone winning the title. however, if that's what a coach wants, then so be it. a coach should go for what he feels is right, not what the fans, director, president or whoever feel.

if bravo is messing up and hart's still not getting shine cos of personal reasons or because the manager doesn't want to admit his decision was foolish, then that's a different case. then it becomes about ego and trying to save face, no longer about business