Is Pep correct to oust Hart?

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Is Pep correct to oust Hart? Empty Is Pep correct to oust Hart?

Post by Art Morte Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:30 am

On top of everyone's minds is probably Hart's shaky performance at the Euros. But, for me, he's been good for Man City. Not world-class, but not a problem, either. I don't think they've lost titles because of him. Now he's being replaced by a 33-year-old Claudio Bravo. I rarely watch Barcelona; is he really that much better than Hart?

I'm finding this a bit of weird, sideways move by Pep.

(Also, where do you think Hart will end up?)
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Post by Kick Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:33 am

I think Pep is doing the right thing, Hart isn't that great. Bravo is much better and I can't see Pep staying long term so buying Bravo isn't an issue, Pep will leave before Bravo declines too much.

Hart will surely go to Everton.
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Post by rincon Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:35 am

Pep likes his goalkeepers to play a certain way and Hart is not particularly talented in general. Its kinda shitty but they knew these things would happen when they hired Pep. He needs everyone to play his game and he will get results. Not backing him now, only a few months into his time, wouldn't make any sense from City.

Bravo is old, but better at everything.
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Post by Nishankly Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:39 am

He's been like Reina's last few seasons at LFC (Better in the same sense), Good but not good enough for a team who wants to challenge for titles and can't afford regular blunders from keepers. This is something Arsenal and Liverpool had/have been settled with and they never consistently won titles.

Im not too sure how much better Bravo will be, But his attributes work for Pep's system better apparently.

Hart is going to stay in England IMO, Just any like English player. They won't leave a league where there is so much publicity, money and comfort while its close to home.
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Post by jibers Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:42 am

Bravo is much better at playing out from the back. It's that simple. That is what Pep requires out of his goal keepers and Hart is awful at it. His body positioning when receiving a pass, his decision making is slow, usually picks the wrong passing option that puts the receiver under pressure and mostly hoofs it up top and his long pass accuracy is dire.

Except you want Pep to change his whole style to suit Hart. The reason playing out from the back is important if done correctly is that if the opposition presses you and you can build up correctly, you will have a spare man and transition better into attack. If the long pass accuracy is good, it can free one of the players up in a one vs one. If they sit back, it allows you to move up as a team so that the shape is retained for ball circulation, preventing counters, finding the spare man etc

Really not that hard to understand...

Joe HArt is almost like the Rooney of GKs. The guy is protected by the media. He's a decent GK, nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by rwo power Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:02 am

Pep needs good passers in all parts of his team. And unfortunately for Joe Hart, this starts with the goalkeeper.
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Post by Vlad the Impaler Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:08 am

But the funniest thing is that Caballero isn't better than Hart with regard to the aspects debated by Jibers. I watched this carefully.
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Post by rwo power Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:10 am

I bet neither Hart nor Caballero ar Pep's first choice - he wants someone who can really fit into his tactics. I think Pep just made a statement to the ManCity board by shunning Hart in the first matches. IMO it is probably similar to Mario Götze's situation at Bayern: "Pep: I do not want - then I do not play"
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Post by Vlad the Impaler Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:15 am

rwo power wrote:I bet neither Hart nor Caballero ar Pep's first choice - he wants someone who can really fit into his tactics. I think Pep just made a statement to the ManCity board by shunning Hart in the first matches.


Yep, sounds fair. I mean, it is Hart that will leave and have the chance to play, not Caballero, who will be benched after Bravo comes.

In the end, Guardiola rated Hart higher by respecting his GK abilities and giving him a chance to play regularly. Pep is such a good guy! Hart is only 29, still has time to show a lot more!

I never thought before about this situation, this way.
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Post by Glory Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:26 am

Both are shit. Caballero at least does the basics right. No wonder pep is picking him over Hart. With Hart lol we never know. Way too inconsistent. Can boss one game but can look like an amateur in the next. Caballero at least has a consistent graph, albeit a shit one.

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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:39 am

If he manages to phase out Hart in a dignified manner, it's the right move. Hart is good for an English goalie, but not good for a goalie, all things considered. He's had a couple very good saves in his career, and England haven't produced many keepers in the past years, but City can sign anyone, and they should look to improve on that position.

On the other hand Hart's been a very passionate supporter of the club, so even if he's ultimately phased out, this needs to be handled with care, and respect.
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Post by danyjr Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:57 am

Bravo is an upgrade on all fronts compared to Hart, it is not even just about ball playing skills.

Having said that the obsession of Guardiola is something to be wary of. I personally hope he doesn't succeed at City, much like I really enjoyed his miserable stint at Bayern.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:31 pm

Sideways move rofl Bravo is one of the best, Hart is a likeable guy.

I think it has most to do with his lack of ball skills. Pep needs to build from the back, and he simply can't do that with Hart, and judges that he'll never learn.
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Post by free_cat Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:51 pm

danyjr wrote:Bravo is an upgrade on all fronts compared to Hart, it is not even just about ball playing skills.

Having said that the obsession of Guardiola is something to be wary of. I personally hope he doesn't succeed at City, much like I really enjoyed his miserable stint at Bayern.


Miserabls stint at Bayern. Laughing Laughing

He just was the most successful coach they ever had in 3 seasons.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:57 pm

wat freecat.  In Bundi titles, sure since he won it all 3 years.  But there's no competition there nowadays so it's not as big an achievement as it would have been say 10-15 years ago or when Dortmund had all its players with Klopp.

To me, the best Bayern managers ever are Lattek and Hitzfeld clearly.  After that, I'd say Heynckes...  and then Pep.
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Post by danyjr Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:48 pm

free_cat wrote:Miserabls stint at Bayern. Laughing Laughing

He just was the most successful coach they ever had in 3 seasons.

Yeah, if winning clown league and getting raped by Madrid and Barça in CL is considered success there is no point in me arguing with you anyway Laughing

I don't take anything away from Guardiola, he was a god for Barça, the way he transformed that team was second to none but that is because he was/is Barça (and even then he had his share of luck to win what he won (Messi/Øvrebø etc.))

Wanting to do the same in Germany in England is not right, even a little bit disrespectful in my opinion.
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Post by free_cat Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:01 pm

I won't argue over facts. Pep is the most successful coach Bayern's ever had: Most big titles per season with 5 in 3 seasons and best win percentage.

Ok, he didn't win a CL, but in the end CL is a lot down to luck. Had he had Evil's draws he would have won at least 2.
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Post by jibers Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:04 pm

danyjr wrote:
free_cat wrote:Miserabls stint at Bayern. Laughing Laughing

He just was the most successful coach they ever had in 3 seasons.

Yeah, if winning clown league and getting raped by Madrid and Barça in CL is considered success there is no point in me arguing with you anyway Laughing

I don't take anything away from Guardiola, he was a god for Barça, the way he transformed that team was second to none but that is because he was/is Barça (and even then he had his share of luck to win what he won (Messi/Øvrebø etc.))

Wanting to do the same in Germany in England is not right, even a little bit disrespectful in my opinion.


It's pretty obvious that you hate Pep because you can't even discuss him rationally.

He was hired by bayern for his style. All the bayern execs especially Breitner went into detail about this. So he should go there and do the opposite? He changed tactically and adapted his philosophy to Bayern players. They played nothing like his Barcelona team in terms of execution. Did you watch any Bayern game bar the cl semis?

So he should also change his style for City,  a club that has done it's best to change its whole structure to fit Guardiola. They hired  Rodolfo  Borrell, an ex Barcelona coach as the global technical director then he became heavily involved with the youth coaching as he was head of youth coaching. Hmmm...I wonder what city are trying to do here...

Ferran Soriano is their chief executive officer, ex vp of Barcelona under Laporta. Txiki Begiristain is theor director of football and the ex director of football of Barcelona and a player under Cruijff so understands what the club are trying to instill.  The youth academy has been changed in the last few years to try and fit this specification.

So amid all these things, Pep should go to a team that had Pellegrini (who himself admitted he was a stop gap till they could get Pep) and change his whole style. That makes complete sense

It is direspectful for Pep to try and execute the philosphy that je was brought in to execute. Maybe instead of criticism Pep you should go and criticise the people that hired him specifically for what he brings.
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Post by danyjr Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:21 pm

Bringing Guardiola to Germany and England to play a certain style of football is like bringing coconuts palms to Alaska and wonder why they don't grow in the cold and snow Laughing
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Post by Sushi Master Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:23 pm

He's doing the right thing.

If you watched any Bayern games you know how critical the goalkeeper position is to the whole style of play. Of course, no one gets close to Neuer in that aspect, but Bravo is decent enough.

The goalie in the Pep system is not just a shot stopper, but another outfield player capable of passing, last ditch challenges and decent enough physique to cover for the crazy high defensive line he likes to play.

Having a shit on-ball goalkeeper just kills your whole momentum and bad decision making will make you bleed goals under Pep-style.
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Post by jibers Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:29 pm

danyjr wrote:Bringing Guardiola to Germany and England to play a certain style of football is like bringing coconuts palms to Alaska and wonder why they don't grow in the cold and snow Laughing


Great refute to all the points I added. So instead of directing the blame at the owners and execs you claim Pep is direspectful for trying to bring his style. I suppose Bayern were mad for hiring LVG then. I mean he did win the league and reached a cl final.

Literally no logical point was made. Just emotional nonsensical drivel.

The style that won him 3 Bundesliga and was phase 3 in Bayerns plan is now disrespectful to a person that isn't even a Bayern fan.

You couldn't make this stuff up.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:09 pm

ffs, Pep is not the most "successful" coach in Bayern history...  just based on facts alone:

Lattek - 9 seasons
6 Bundi titles
3 Cups
1 CL
1.11 trophies per season

Hitzfeld - 7 seasons
5 Bundi titles
4 Cups
1 CL
1.43 trophies per season

Heynckes -  6 seasons
3 Bundi
1 Cup
1 CL
0.83 trophies per season

Pep - 3 seasons
3 Bundi
1 Cup
1.33 trophies per season

IMO, CL trumps Bundi...  especially in today's Bundi that is non-competitive.  Hitzfeld is the most "successful" if you're just looking at major trophy stats anyhow.

And please don't bring up the garbage supercups, cwc and other nonsense.


Last edited by sportsczy on Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by zigra Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:10 pm

free_cat wrote:I won't argue over facts. Pep is the most successful coach Bayern's ever had: Most big titles per season with 5 in 3 seasons and best win percentage.

Ok, he didn't win a CL, but in the end CL is a lot down to luck. Had he had Evil's draws he would have won at least 2.


*3 big titles in 3 seasons. There are only 2 big titles to win each season.

Miserable is still a joke obviously. His time at Bayern was good.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:15 pm

free_cat wrote:
danyjr wrote:Bravo is an upgrade on all fronts compared to Hart, it is not even just about ball playing skills.

Having said that the obsession of Guardiola is something to be wary of. I personally hope he doesn't succeed at City, much like I really enjoyed his miserable stint at Bayern.


Miserabls stint at Bayern. Laughing Laughing

He just was the most successful coach they ever had in 3 seasons.


If you mean that Pep was the most successful coach Bayern ever had in those 3 seasons he was there, I actually agree.
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Post by Vlad the Impaler Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:38 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
free_cat wrote:
danyjr wrote:Bravo is an upgrade on all fronts compared to Hart, it is not even just about ball playing skills.

Having said that the obsession of Guardiola is something to be wary of. I personally hope he doesn't succeed at City, much like I really enjoyed his miserable stint at Bayern.


Miserabls stint at Bayern. Laughing Laughing

He just was the most successful coach they ever had in 3 seasons.


If you mean that Pep was the most successful coach Bayern ever had in those 3 seasons he was there, I actually agree.


rofl
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