Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

by rwo power Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:49 am

Well, then he'll have reached the age of the venerable Dino Zoff at the World Cup 1982.

I would still hope for him to reconsider, although I think that with Mattia Perin and Gianluigi Donnarumma (who definitely has the fitting first name) you have two very interesting young goalies coming up after him.

by Robespierre Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:37 am

RealGunner wrote:Thoughts on Zaza's penalty Robes?

While I'm writing this post, Zaza is still having his run-up.

by Bellabong Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:29 am

History behind Pelle's panenka mind game and the commentator says he's done it before. Neuer probably saw through the difference in run-up's.

by Robespierre Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:29 am

Phritz wrote:History behind Pelle's panenka mind game and the commentator says he's done it before. Neuer probably saw through the difference in run-up's.
Spoiler:

Well , there is a history behind this.

In 2007 Pellè was a mediocre Serie B player, when Italy was playing against the Portugal the play off for the qualification in Olympic Games 2008.
The match reach the penalty kicks , and Pellè scores his penalty with an amazing panenka.
After it Louis Van Gaal , at that time AZ Alkmaar manager, decides to sign him.
It was the crucial stage for him because he became a football player in Eredivise... His career turned for a panenka.

by dostoevsky Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:16 pm

Adit wrote:Fluke is a wrong word. Probability is probably more apt for the situation. What i was referring to was about the risk management. While Eder and Pelle are of low quality there is more probability of them scoring when it is 2 vs 2 than in a 2 vs 3. A three men back line gave an assurance of numerical superiority,confidence to come out and intercept and simply mark the one of the forward even if he is dragging you to deep into the midfield knowing that there is still 2 at back against the (now) lone forward. We saw that confidence in German back line today and how easily they intercepted everything. This is an important point which is the basis of the 3 man back line argument. Everything else comes secondary.

Hummels and Boeteng arent with out weakness. Hummels isnt the quickest nor is he good at dealing dribblers at space, remember when a 35 year old Cassano turned him like he didnt exist at the Euro 2012? Even yesterday there was a play when Insigne made a quick direction change which some how made a 4 meter gap between him and Hummels. While we can use fine, top class and one of the best to generally describe players that doesnt make them with out weakness. Boeteng is a red card + Penalty waiting to happen, always has been and he still is. Low gave nothing to chance and put one more CB which essentially destroyed any chance of Italian Counter attacks.

Italy plays alot of long balls to their strikers. Infact i would say that is one of their main attacking move since they have bypassed their midfield through out this tournament. CBs directly and fullbacks when pressured pumps long air balls to Pelle to control which is a prime move of Italy. In such a situation CB has to track the striker means only one CB now behind with one striker. Infact spain got destroyed in this move as their CBs decided to not challenge the forward while receiving long ball and you cant blame them for making sure the numerical superiority. Spain side was begging for Busquets to slot in as a 3rd CB change which never happened.

Fullbacks can overlap Draxler and create danger yes. But this theory has two problems.

1.Which fullback?

Germany have no quality fullbacks, not even real fullbacks let alone quality ones. Kimmich was terrible as a wing back ( a position which has greater freedom to attack) what makes you think he was actually going to be a success as a Fullback? I just cant see it.

2. This means essentially playing a 2 CB system. Reference to the first paragraph.

Low's tactical plan was to minimize any chance of Italy scoring ( which he did tactically except for the unnatural calamity by Boeteng) and to give more chances of Germany scoring (which he did as well, did any one expect Germany to blow Italy out 2-0 or 3-0 ? it was always going to be a one goal margin win at best and there were on the right path until Boeteng happened.

You said it yourself. Italy are only good at defending and they were really good at it so if Germany go behind once there was no coming back. In such situation you dont go all out attack , its like playing Atletico, you tire them out and then score a goal. Italy was only going to score in a counter attack or a set piece. Low took care of the former while the later happened regardless of tactics.Look at most of the goals Italy scored , either fast break or set piece . That doesnt make you a strong counter attacking side but it makes you a team that can only score during counters or set piece. Now why would i set up a team in a way to prevent a slow possession game against such a team like Italy? Low broke Italy's counter attacking plan ( the only plan they have) by effectively intercepting the long ball to forward in midfield area's while in transition ( the major plan they had) by the use of 3 at back ( giving them numerical superiority and freedom to come out into the midfield whith out worry)

I agree that Loew's decision to move to a three man backline reduced Germany's defensive risk. There reaches a point however when the risk of a penalty shootout is greater than the danger offered by the Italian attack. You're quite correct that Boateng and Hummels are not without weakness but the same is true of anyone. I recall the incident with Cassano with great fondness but he should not be judged on an incident from four years ago. Boateng meanwhile may have suffered a moment of madness but he was otherwise assured. What occurred was not something predictable. Even if we accept and emphasise their faults however they can only stop those in front of them. Italy have struggled to create chances throughout the tournament against far weaker backlines. Particularly as Italy tired, a four man backline was an acceptable risk.

As for a fullback, Hector has established himself as Germany's first choice fullback and is a natural left back. He's certainly not a player to set the world on fire but that's unnecessary. The importance of the fullback is to overload Florenzi and pull men out of the centre for Italy to avoid a numerical disadvantage. Italy may be a good defensive side but we've still given up clear cut chances throughout the tournament to every side bar Sweden, who are awful. As a unit we were certainly not infallible and Florenzi proved himself a liability during the match when targeted. Despite this though he was not put under sustained pressure and our weakest spot was not often probed, largely in part due to Loew's tactical decisions. It may even have been wise for him to begin with a three man backline then switch later in the game when we were tired but he never made best use of his resources in attack to avoid a potentially disastrous finale from the spot.

Loew's performance here has been blown out of proportion due to Italy's record against Germany. They were not playing the ghost of Paolo Rossi. Italy had a better chance of progressing through a shootout than on the pitch yet given the equivalent of a half of football to avoid penalties after Bonucci's equaliser, Loew did very little to alter the situation. A manager possessing the best national squad available is rightly expected to do better. I'm not suggesting it was a disastrous managerial performance but it was certainly a riskier approach than some are claiming.

by elfmeter Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:52 am

urbaNRoots wrote:How was Löw's approach reckless? Going all out attack against Italy is just stupid. You can't allow Italy to score, otherwise you're *bleep*. Löw made sure that didn't happen with his change in formation, and the goal came aswell. Everything was going to plan until Boateng *bleep* up and I can hardly blame Löw for that.

Having one more attacker doesn't guarantee you goals, it doesn't make it more likely to score against Italy's 9 man defence either. It leaves you open to counter attacks though which is exactly what Spain were prone to. Löw didn't fall in the same trap.

I'm very proud of Löw, the 2012 Löw would've done exactly as Hans suggested and lost the game because Italy would score first. But he developed a lot since then into a top class manager as proven last night.

Hans was possibly listening to Mehmet Scholl. Though to a degree, I understand, you want to see Germany pull another 7-1 win, with attacking football, but you aint gonna do that vs Italy.

In the end, the win is what matters, it was not a classic, but the manager made the right call.

by breva Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:51 am

Manager didn't make the right call. Two Italian clowns shot stupid penalties.

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