Re: People need to admit Chiellini is one of the best CBs of this generation

by DeviAngel Mon 25 Jan 2016, 00:37

Robespierre wrote:
DeviAngel wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
DeviAngel wrote:I was about to make similar thread about Bonucci, underrated defender.

Are all underrated the Juve players ?
Or maybe they are just rated like are they really?
I mean , noone says Juve is scrub team lol . I don't get why Juve fans feel ringed as if they players don't get a sort of respect

Oh Robes always jumping on the gun when Juve or Juve player is the topic. I didnt't say he is the best but yes he is underrated. Funny how when Inter got a little better Interisti started doing this

He is miles better than Ramos for example, plus his ball playing abilities are great which is rare for a defender.

At 0:35 AM there is this and the Wrestling. And I don't like wrestling.

Spoiler:

Same here and I am sick ffs. 0:35 this or drinking medication and lying ....

Same as Benzema is good DM ? Smile

by Hapless_Hans Mon 25 Jan 2016, 00:38

Robespierre wrote:
He wasn't so before of Juve, I remind him in Palermo years, he was good but you didn't think worthy of a big team . Infact he was signed as free agent from Juve under general indifference. Not even Juve fans rated him at that time.
I remind he played against Ukraina at quarter finals 2006 because Materazzi got a red card against Australia and some were worried for it.. Barzagli who ? Yet he played a great match with no mistakes.
For the rest in Juve years he was fantastic though.
Baically he had a weird career , probably matured late.

He spent the time between Palermo and Juve at Wolfsburg.

Won the league under Magath as a starter, with Ricardo Costa, Josue, Misimovic, Grafite, Dzeko.
It was a good team. They also bought Zaccardo that same season lol.

He joined Juve for very little after he was benched at Wolfsbug lol.

by DeviAngel Mon 25 Jan 2016, 00:39

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
He wasn't so before of Juve, I remind him in Palermo years, he was good but you didn't think worthy of a big team . Infact he was signed as free agent from Juve under general indifference. Not even Juve fans rated him at that time.
I remind he played against Ukraina at quarter finals 2006 because Materazzi got a red card against Australia and some were worried for it.. Barzagli who ? Yet he played a great match with no mistakes.
For the rest in Juve years he was fantastic though.
Baically he had a weird career , probably matured late.

He spent the time between Palermo and Juve at Wolfsburg.

Won the league under Magath as a starter, with Ricardo Costa, Josue, Misimovic, Grafite, Dzeko.
It was a good team. They also bought Zaccardo that same season lol.

He joined Juve for very little after he was benched at Wolfsbug lol.

300.000 euros Smile

by Hapless_Hans Mon 25 Jan 2016, 00:43

DeviAngel wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
He wasn't so before of Juve, I remind him in Palermo years, he was good but you didn't think worthy of a big team . Infact he was signed as free agent from Juve under general indifference. Not even Juve fans rated him at that time.
I remind he played against Ukraina at quarter finals 2006 because Materazzi got a red card against Australia and some were worried for it.. Barzagli who ? Yet he played a great match with no mistakes.
For the rest in Juve years he was fantastic though.
Baically he had a weird career , probably matured late.

He spent the time between Palermo and Juve at Wolfsburg.

Won the league under Magath as a starter, with Ricardo Costa, Josue, Misimovic, Grafite, Dzeko.
It was a good team. They also bought Zaccardo that same season lol.

He joined Juve for very little after he was benched at Wolfsbug lol.

300.000 euros

one of the greatest, if not THE, of all time though.

Top 5 CB of today together with CHIELLINI, BONUCCI, RUGANI

by RealGunner Mon 25 Jan 2016, 00:47

Guys please let's be serious.

Bonnuci is a good defender and nothing more nothing less. Not anywhere near Chiellini or Barzagli IMO.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon 25 Jan 2016, 00:47

I don't think Samuel and Lucio is a good comparison tbh, Samuel needed to park the bus to look good lol.

Lucio had plenty of examples of being a great defender, people forget how good he was at Leverkusen in his early years. Although he did have brain farts he proved he could be top quality in various different systems.

Samuel looking like a 2nd rate scrub in Spain made it impossible for me to ever look at him as superior to Lucio.

by Dante Mon 25 Jan 2016, 00:59

elm_baraja_shaman wrote:at his best he is easily top 3 best CB and among the greatest ever, but his best days are not that many, still a world class CB, but i feel safe knowing Barzagli is at the back than when Chiello and Bon Bon are both there..

People need to admit Chiellini is one of the best CBs of this generation - Page 2 Giphy

by Robespierre Mon 25 Jan 2016, 01:30

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:I don't think Samuel and Lucio is a good comparison tbh, Samuel needed to park the bus to look good lol.

Lucio had plenty of examples of being a great defender, people forget how good he was at Leverkusen in his early years. Although he did have brain farts he proved he could be top quality in various different systems.

Samuel looking like a 2nd rate scrub in Spain made it impossible for me to ever look at him as superior to Lucio.

lol ?
Samuel was an unreal defender ( I don't find a better adjective for him ) , it was enough to watch him in Serie A for almost 15 years( and then , the UCL 2010 again ) , he is incredibly underrated aborad just because Real Madrid ruined him because he went in a team built with no criteria, and no balance, where the balance had to be given from Beckham .
So just the prejudices for that experience not because of him can underrate him tbh.
Who saw playing him very well since 2001 in Serie A can confirm he was GOAT. Not just in Inter, he was a difference maker for Roma scudetto , in his first Serie A year he was the wall of that defence , he led scrub as Zebina to look like legit , so legendary that if you went in Roma at that time you could read " Walter Samuel" on Stop signals .. , and many don't have idea what it means to win a scudetto in Italy with Roma, Lazio or Napoli ( infact Napoli won't do it . they could do just with Maradona ) . Roma and Lazio got it also because they had two legends Samuel and Nesta.
Basically just Samuel could get a perfect match at Nou Camp against prime Barca under Guardiola deleting Messi and others. And he was " warned " ( if he got a yellow card, he 'd missed the final .. but he wasn't conditioned ) too. I remind Gazzetta gave him 9 as vote for it .
one of greatest Inter defender ever and better than Lucio because Lucio always had that mistake in him. Conversely, Samuel got wrong rarely. Prime Samuel 'd be the best defender in the world now I've no doubts about it.
If for " defender" we mean a defender who can defend, not a player who can play the ball , dribble , and then who cares if he misses the man to mark ( David Luiz)

by Doc Mon 25 Jan 2016, 02:44

What you mean by "generation"?

by djfawnz Mon 25 Jan 2016, 02:52

Juventus players are underrated on this forum, that's a fact.
Chiellini is Top 5 CB hands-down.
Barzagli is more consistent on defense, but as an all-around CB, I think Chiellini is better.
Bonucci is good, very good. Worthy of being starting CB on prob any team. Yet, he is not at Chiello or Barzagli's level. That's how GOOD Juve's defense is.
Will these players enter the top italian CB of all time? Well, maybe, but would prob be on the lower tier of the list.

by sportsczy Mon 25 Jan 2016, 02:59

He's actually the best in my book... not one of the best. Silva, Pique, Ramos, Pepe, etc. are all behind him.

by Dante Mon 25 Jan 2016, 05:14

djfawnz wrote:Juventus players are underrated on this forum, that's a fact.
Chiellini is Top 5 CB hands-down.
Barzagli is more consistent on defense, but as an all-around CB, I think Chiellini is better.
Bonucci is good, very good. Worthy of being starting CB on prob any team. Yet, he is not at Chiello or Barzagli's level. That's how GOOD Juve's defense is.
Will these players enter the top italian CB of all time? Well, maybe, but would prob be on the lower tier of the list.

They are not underrated and it's hardly a fact . Fact is something else . Fact is something you can prove it happened , not a notion where people simply don't agree with your opinion . If anything , Juventus players have been overrated in the forum over the years , and that's a fact , an example of this is how many of you were saying how Chiellini was better than Silva when they were both playing in Serie A .

Another fact is Spain comfortably bagged 4 in the Euro 2012 final against them , then later they failed to be anything close to worthy of an Italian CB of all time by failing to help their team get past the group stages in the CL and also couldn't stop Benfica from progressing into the EL final. In their defense , they also lost a CL final . I think anyone worthy of such a hall of fame would have at least managed better at some of that. Because all the truly great Italian CBs of all time did comfortably better than that in their best years .

It's just Juventus fans who simply overrate them and then some of us only dispute the going overboard and that's all there really is to it. Thus they may look underrated here to some of you , if not all of you (: , because you're particularly biased about the 3 of them , but to the rest they're rated more or less where they deserve to be. Fact is , they have been praised a lot for the unit they have been all this time. But apparently it's not enough , they also have to be the best as individuals . I cannot blame you for thinking like this , though . Truth be told , watching them boss it around in Serie A for so long , i can see why you feel the need to exaggerate , because even after all this , few will bat an eye about them.

Finally , the fact you think Barzagli , Chiellini and Bonucci are worthy to be considered in the same category as with the greatest Italian CBs of all time, is all the proof i need to put my case to rest . Not only they aren't underrated around here , but with you lot going overboard , i can only say they've been for the most part overrated in GL . Because most people in GL or otherwise , are happy to call them some of the best CBs in the world and that's it .

But of course . And how it could be otherwise with this lot. It's not enough for the trio to be one of the best defenses in the world. Even individually , they are right up there currently . They have to be the best and considered in hall of fames , even when they can't win shit in their best years in any European competition .

rofl

Right , i know this won't change your perception about Chiellini or the rest , just like i very much doubt i could be convinced otherwise by anything you can throw at me , and i respect that. But you could always tone it down with the ludicrous claims , such as "best ever in his career" , "among the greatest ever" , "enter the top italian CB of all time" .. you don't have to be that ludicrous to make a point . We got it , you sad because we don't fap like you do with the trio . Fine . GL very much rates the trio as a top unit and as individuals pretty highly , nothing underrated whatsoever .

Also , pre Conte , there was nothing . Nowhere near in debates about any of this . Even now it's crazy. So , next time , before you go on to say something that ridiculous as these 3 being considered in the hall of fame of the greatest ever Italian CBs , remember that the greatest ever Italian CBs were relevant and successful for 2/3 of their career in both Italy and elsewhere . Most if not all of them are legendary figures of the game. Now you go on saying these 3 deserve to be included in there , when they got schooled 4-0 against Spain in the Euro final against Iniesta playing out of position , Fabregas playing out of position , Silva playing out of position and to put the cherry on top of it , Torres scoring one in there too to make the final score utterly embarrassing , it is simply ridiculous .

They aren't anywhere near that and never will be . Barzagli was secondary tier and irrelevant when a few of the real greatest Italian CBs where around , because as far as they were around , nobody thought so of Barzagli . And everybody were of course correct to do so , because he simply never was in their league. When they disappeared , he then was the better of the lot in Italy and even then , it still was quite a big surprise .

All in all , after putting the ludicrous claims to rest , at least i hope so. They aren't underrated by any means , not here and not anywhere. They are rated just fine as some of the best in the world currently , it's their fan base that overrates them , if anything .

by djfawnz Mon 25 Jan 2016, 10:51

Dante wrote:
djfawnz wrote:Juventus players are underrated on this forum, that's a fact.
Chiellini is Top 5 CB hands-down.
Barzagli is more consistent on defense, but as an all-around CB, I think Chiellini is better.
Bonucci is good, very good. Worthy of being starting CB on prob any team. Yet, he is not at Chiello or Barzagli's level. That's how GOOD Juve's defense is.
Will these players enter the top italian CB of all time? Well, maybe, but would prob be on the lower tier of the list.

They are not underrated and it's hardly a fact . Fact is something else . Fact is something you can prove it happened , not a notion where people simply don't agree with your opinion . If anything , Juventus players have been overrated in the forum over the years , and that's a fact , an example of this is how many of you were saying how Chiellini was better than Silva when they were both playing in Serie A .

Another fact is Spain comfortably bagged 4 in the Euro 2012 final against them , then later they failed to be anything close to worthy of an Italian CB of all time by failing to help their team get past the group stages in the CL and also couldn't stop Benfica from progressing into the EL final. In their defense , they also lost a CL final . I think anyone worthy of such a hall of fame would have at least managed better at some of that. Because all the truly great Italian CBs of all time did comfortably better than that in their best years .

It's just Juventus fans who simply overrate them and then some of us only dispute the going overboard and that's all there really is to it. Thus they may look underrated here to some of you , if not all of you (: , because you're particularly biased about the 3 of them , but to the rest they're rated more or less where they deserve to be. Fact is , they have been praised a lot for the unit they have been all this time. But apparently it's not enough , they also have to be the best as individuals . I cannot blame you for thinking like this , though . Truth be told , watching them boss it around in Serie A for so long , i can see why you feel the need to exaggerate , because even after all this , few will bat an eye about them.

Finally , the fact you think Barzagli , Chiellini and Bonucci are worthy to be considered in the same category as with the greatest Italian CBs of all time, is all the proof i need to put my case to rest . Not only they aren't underrated around here , but with you lot going overboard , i can only say they've been for the most part overrated in GL . Because most people in GL or otherwise , are happy to call them some of the best CBs in the world and that's it .

But of course . And how it could be otherwise with this lot. It's not enough for the trio to be one of the best defenses in the world. Even individually , they are right up there currently . They have to be the best and considered in hall of fames , even when they can't win shit in their best years in any European competition .

Right , i know this won't change your perception about Chiellini or the rest , just like i very much doubt i could be convinced otherwise by anything you can throw at me , and i respect that. But you could always tone it down with the ludicrous claims , such as "best ever in his career" , "among the greatest ever" , "enter the top italian CB of all time" .. you don't have to be that ludicrous to make a point . We got it , you sad because we don't fap like you do with the trio . Fine . GL very much rates the trio as a top unit and as individuals pretty highly , nothing underrated whatsoever .

Also , pre Conte , there was nothing . Nowhere near in debates about any of this . Even now it's crazy. So , next time , before you go on to say something that ridiculous as these 3 being considered in the hall of fame of the greatest ever Italian CBs , remember that the greatest ever Italian CBs were relevant and successful for 2/3 of their career in both Italy and elsewhere . Most if not all of them are legendary figures of the game. Now you go on saying these 3 deserve to be included in there , when they got schooled 4-0 against Spain in the Euro final against Iniesta playing out of position , Fabregas playing out of position , Silva playing out of position and to put the cherry on top of it , Torres scoring one in there too to make the final score utterly embarrassing , it is simply ridiculous .

They aren't anywhere near that and never will be . Barzagli was secondary tier and irrelevant when a few of the real greatest Italian CBs where around , because as far as they were around , nobody thought so of Barzagli . And everybody were of course correct to do so , because he simply never was in their league. When they disappeared , he then was the better of the lot in Italy and even then , it still was quite a big surprise .

All in all , after putting the ludicrous claims to rest , at least i hope so. They aren't underrated by any means , not here and not anywhere. They are rated just fine as some of the best in the world currently , it's their fan base that overrates them , if anything .

Wao, never thought that making it to a Euro Final and CL final, winning the most competitive league for 4 years, one year undefeated (WHEN MILAN HAD A GREAT TEAM) is something that counts as overrated.

When you see that in coach of the year Allegri doesnt get nominated, you KNOW Juve is underrated.

Not gonna waste my time explaining why Juve is in the top 3 team right now. But sure Dante, your "arguments" are rock solid, no wonder you are a Milan fan.

Boom.

by djfawnz Mon 25 Jan 2016, 11:02

Moreover, why are you even talking pre-Conte? Who cares what happened 4 years ago, dont talk to me about history, talk to me about the present and right now Juventus is one of the best teams atm while Milan nor ANY of Milan's players are even worthy for a top 6 team. Maybe Bacca could become the 6th forward in Juve.

by jibers Mon 25 Jan 2016, 11:04

Robespierre wrote:
RealGunner wrote:
Robespierre wrote:No, not even the best Juventus defender.

Exactly why i made this thread.

Barzagli *may* have better defensive qualities but Cheillini overall is better than him

Barzagli is definitely a better defender than him.

Chiellini is very good in a 3-5-2 system ,when he exploits his physical and he hides his limits on man marking , but if he plays CB on a 4 system defence , he shows this limits and can be harmful. / Like Italy- Costa Rica 0-1 (: )
Infact I don't know if he can be really definied a CB.
Playing in a 3-5-2 system in left is different.
In FIFA he is a legend though.

Spot on.

by Adit Mon 25 Jan 2016, 11:08

If fouling players down is the scale then yeah one of the best indeed. This is my top 4 based on that.

1.Chiellini
2.Ramos
3.Boeteng
4.Koscienly

Imagin all four of them together as the back four.

Fouls ... Fouls galore. Red cards, double yellow, penalty , again penalty, wrestling in corner kick, dirty shirt pulls, elbows.

This forum ( rofl

)

by Ion Creanga Mon 25 Jan 2016, 13:05

Dante wrote:Another fact is Spain comfortably bagged 4 in the Euro 2012 final against them , then later they failed to be anything close to worthy of an Italian CB of all time by failing to help their team get past the group stages in the CL and also couldn't stop Benfica from progressing into the EL final. In their defense , they also lost a CL final .

Let's completely ignore the fact that Spain had 1 player up after 2-0. Let's ignore the fact that Chiellini was injured in that Euro final, and didn't even play in the 2015 UCL final. And yeah, beating the likes of Germany or Real Madrid in Semi-Finals means jack shit, because of 1 failed season in Europe.

If your greatness test for a defense is stoping the likes of Neymar-Messi-Suarez, good luck in finding in history such a defense.

The defense is the last of worries for Italy, the lack of quality attacking players is a problem.

by McAgger Mon 25 Jan 2016, 13:18

Ramos is not the best of his generation at anything. He should not be on any list.

by Lucifer Mon 25 Jan 2016, 14:16

Italy have been always known for blue collar worker bees in midfield which sadly isn't case anymore and that's what they are missing most right now imo. Defence is the last thing they should be worried of.
On topic I do admit Chiellini is one of the best CB of this generation.

by FilthyLuca Mon 25 Jan 2016, 15:49

Chiellini is the third best defender on his team and is good for at least one dumbass decision a game. I cant wait til rugani is ready to go full time.

by Doc Mon 25 Jan 2016, 16:37

RealGunner wrote:Guys please let's be serious.

Bonnuci is a good defender and nothing more nothing less. Not anywhere near Chiellini or Barzagli IMO.

You didn't actually start off with a serious tone by making this thread. I thought you were legitimately flame baiting. Go figure you're serious.

Anyway, Chiellini is a good defender who probably would be considered one of the best of "his generation" or whatever bs they come up with. I, of course, consider him just a good defender who can do good things if given a very specific structure. Nothing more or less.

by DeviAngel Mon 25 Jan 2016, 17:59

RealGunner wrote:Guys please let's be serious.

Bonnuci is a good defender and nothing more nothing less. Not anywhere near Chiellini or Barzagli IMO.

Yeah good defender, not world class but good enough for first team that's what I meant when I said underrated not world class imo.

by Robespierre Mon 25 Jan 2016, 19:55

I remind Chiellini in Juve 2007-2012 , I rated him overrated from medias, too much chaotic and undity , things to not make him a reliable CB, and for this reason I remind Juve wanted to sign a guy named Rudolpho as CB in January

-- Yes my memory worked

http://www.calciomercato.com/news/rhodolfo-alla-juve-sposta-chiellini-593361
2011 :
Translation : Chiellini suffers as CB , so Conte is thinking to move him in left and he wants the Brazilian Rholdofo in January
:coffee:

then the tactical change :coffee:

http://www.tuttosport.com/calcio/serie_a/juventus/2011/10/04-147396/Chiellini+a+sinistra,+sono+tutti+d'accordo?print
" Chiellini in left, all agree on it "

and we saw a different Chielllini . NOT CB in a system with 4 defenders.

I confirm what I wrote above , he works with 3-5-2 so and it's even difficult to define a real CB when he doesn't play CB.
I don't mean he is shit, he is a good player, but I don't get this consideration for him when not even best Juve defender

djfawnz wrote:Juventus players are underrated on this forum, that's a fact.
Chiellini is Top 5 CB hands-down.
Barzagli is more consistent on defense, but as an all-around CB, I think Chiellini is better.
Bonucci is good, very good. Worthy of being starting CB on prob any team. Yet, he is not at Chiello or Barzagli's level. That's how GOOD Juve's defense is.
Will these players enter the top italian CB of all time? Well, maybe, but would prob be on the lower tier of the list.

Saying they're underrated in a thread " Chiellini is one of the best cbs of this generation " looks like a huge oximoron ....
Besides I read thread as Dybala appreciation , so I don't believe they aren't rated here.
If anything I can agree about the fact Juve 's defence doesn't get the right credit , but it is not matter of GL, it's everywhere.
I mean, when you listen to talk about Juve, everything is focused on Dybala / Tevez, or their midfielders, but noone underlines it's mainly a defence who concedes very few chances or goals.
it's basically the most underrated Juventus strong point.
For example, for me Juve doesn't play at all a great football , but it is an effective and very solid team.
You don't see jointed actions like Napoli but they can euqally wait to score whichever, they've always the control of match in Italy because the defence concedes nothing. When you've this thing, you're sure about your strenght and you can wait the Dybala tricks.
This is always been the main credit of Allegri , even his Milan was a solid team who could defend well.
Main factors for it :
- Allegri 's tactics
- good individualities ( Buffon and Barzagli great, the rest is good )
- 3-5-2.
Some over-hate this setting, but if it made with the proper player it's absolutely lethal in Serie A.
I am not sure about Europe, despite las year , but in Serie A it's surely so.

by Dante Mon 25 Jan 2016, 20:16

djfawnz wrote:

Wao, never thought that making it to a Euro Final and CL final, winning the most competitive league for 4 years, one year undefeated (WHEN MILAN HAD A GREAT TEAM) is something that counts as overrated.

When you see that in coach of the year Allegri doesnt get nominated, you KNOW Juve is underrated.

Not gonna waste my time explaining why Juve is in the top 3 team right now. But sure Dante, your "arguments" are rock solid, no wonder you are a Milan fan.

Boom.

yeah , boom . You got me .

Laughing

Does comprehension mean anything to you , or reading a few words more than 3 lines make it hard for you to understand the meaning of a post? I never said what they achieved is overrated , i said you are overrating them by placing them next to the greatest of their kind , when by their greatest accomplishments alone they can't even be considered next to the greats .

And please don't say that again . People will laugh at you , Juvi certainly didn't win anything close to the most competitive league for 4 years . You claim to be 29 years old , haven't you at least followed 00s Serie A?Don't you watch other leagues? How can you say this Serie A has been the most competitive league in the last 4 years ? How can you be that delusional and presumptuous ffs Laughing

Right, go at it again if you like , i never said any of them or what they have achieved , especially out of Serie A , was overrated. Just that you , or some of you , overrate them and that their achievements out of Serie A aren't enough to allow them such high honors , as to be placed next to the greatest of their kind.

Agreed about Allegri , though Allegri isn't a Juventus player. This thread and discussion , isn't about Juvi being underrated ; It was about Chiellini , and then involved his partners in crime .

The rest :

djfawnz wrote:no wonder you are a Milan fan

while Milan nor ANY of Milan's players are even worthy for a top 6 team.

Maybe Bacca could become the 6th forward in Juve.

Me: making a case with arguments

djtopbawntz : my rb's dick is better than yours

All worthy and credible arguments , certainly not petty shenanigans that have nothing to do with what we are all talking about. The fact that you failed to respond with anything other than flame about my team and our players pleases me . It simply proves you had nothing to back up your ludicrous claims and resorted to trash talking. It was amusing reading your response i must say , but ultimately failed it's purpose to , i guess , hurt my feelings ?? Be relevant in our talk?? I don't know . But I am sure you will trash talk better next time and who knows? If you shit post better , it may count as a legit post !

You certainly had absolutely nothing to respond with other than false comprehension and personal attacks toward my team and players. Conclusion : You're talking bs and i was right in what i said .

Finally , as for Chiellini , he may be a brute , may be technically limited , occasionally reckless , but he is one of the best around given the best CBs aren't what they used to be 10 years ago , and that's as far as i would go . Even then , I would never call him the best in the world , because he simply hasn't been there not once . For the rest , yeah . I said enough i think .

by Lord Awesome Mon 25 Jan 2016, 20:22

Chiellini is at the top of my list of best defenders in this gen. But it's also true how underrated he is. I'm guessing this stems more from a sizable portion of the members of this forum who just watch their teams or league than other leagues. Also, let's face it, more here would rather banter more about Forwards and Midfielders than Defenders or GK's even, minus a few. Defenders are universally more ignored and mostly underrated by a majority fans in the footy world. From this stems ignorance and thus proper ways of measuring the quality of a defender is skewered. It's just the way things are unfortunately.

by RealGunner Thu 17 Mar 2016, 20:53

Bayern would have never scored those headers if he was playing.

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