Iniesta vs Zidane (revisited)

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Post by jibers Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:32 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:People with honesty, integrity and logic do. That's what matters, who cares what casual fans remember?


It's a spectator sport


Remember when you used to claim CR was better than Messi, what changed your mind?

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Post by titosantill Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:00 pm

@jibers the comparison to all those guys isn't from a skilled but from an era standpoint. people pick who they feel were top at their eras and place them. and i don't think anyone has ever gone "zidane or pele", the most i've heard; by former players and managers, is categorizing them in the same bracket as tops from their eras. and mind you even di stefano probably wasn't playing like a beast every game, i'm sure he, cruijff etc had off days. a lot of people use players, team leaders shining at the brightest stage as a huge yardstick....nobody really talks about pele ravaging botofago or corinthians, nor cruijff being consistent against mid to bottom feeders in the league....it just is what it is. i don't like era comparison, especially in footy- in the nba its still tough but a lot more detailed....

but the, "player x was overrated because he did well in some big games" talk gets out of hand. because, when players don't do well in those, we go "agh he only does well in small games". we over-analyze everything to the point, people even make arguments that michael jordan was a fraud. i've seen people stylishly try to give scottie freakin pippen, credit for jordan's achievments
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Post by jibers Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:11 pm

@titosantill wrote:@jibers the comparison to all those guys isn't from a skilled but from an era standpoint. people pick who they feel were top at their eras and place them. and i don't think anyone has ever gone "zidane or pele", the most i've heard; by former players and managers, is categorizing them in the same bracket as tops from their eras. and mind you even di stefano probably wasn't playing like a beast every game, i'm sure he, cruijff etc had off days. a lot of people use players, team leaders  shining at the brightest stage as a huge yardstick....nobody really talks about pele ravaging botofago or corinthians, nor cruijff being consistent against mid to bottom feeders in the league....it just is what it is. i don't like era comparison, especially in footy- in the nba its still tough but a lot more detailed....

but the, "player x was overrated because he did well in some big games" talk gets out of hand. because, when players don't do well in those, we go "agh he only does well in small games". we over-analyze everything to the point, people even make arguments that michael jordan was a fraud. i've seen people stylishly try to give scottie freakin pippen, credit for jordan's achievments


Well, Sports claims Zidane is a top 10 player, whatever that means. A lot of people that talk about Zidane attibute things falsely to him. There is a ridiculous myth around him that is part of his legacy. When I ask people to tell me what made Zidane so GOAT they can never put their finger on it and say things like "he was just elegant" and "he had the best 1st touch evah" or he was the best attacking MF ever", nothing concrete is ever said. Platini is betetr than Zidane as far as I'm concerned and is the real French/Italian MVP.  My point is that if you watch Messi and Zidane, it is clear who is better. Zidane is simply not in that class. Sure you can say he was one of the best in his era, then you had R9 and the rest etc. From watching Zidane and R9 it was clear who was better just like watching Iniesta and Messi it is clear who is better.


You mad LeGawd >> Fraudan?
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Post by titosantill Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:28 pm

there are many in football, ex players and coaches who would agree with sports, steven gerrard for instance, and the poll made in the mid 2000s when uefa's champion magazine ranked top european players of all time (zidane and henry made the top 5). top ten football players made my fans is ridiculous though...a top ten? maybe by positions would make more sense. even a general top ten in basketball with fewer positions and men on the court just turns into an "overrated", "underrated" debate, with little conclusions...everyone will stick to their guns based on what they saw

besides diego, when i was a kid, i loved watching gullit play, despite his coaching career and issues he may have had, nobody can tell me gullit wasn't the man. now obviously if i mentioned gullit, with respect to a top ten, i'd be looked at as on drugs.. zidane in his time was fantastic,;his teammates looked to him, and big opponents took him very seriously- on that team sheet, your first defensive tactics were on him. i think that says a lot.

i prefer people picking their (note 'their' not 'a') best 11, than just a top ten
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Post by titosantill Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:39 pm

as for r9, it doesn't really help him that zidane upstaged him when they played at the biggest stages. sure r9 may have won some league games, but he'd take the two world cup wins over those. btw, i think r9 from a skill stand point was better than zidane. zidane was a better passer, better with his head, and set pieces. r9 was either as good or better in everything else. but again, different positions.

there are some people who'll even come out and say r9 was 'overrated', cos he didn't win this or win that....the overrated talk is just overboard these days. and guys who have done little in comparison, are now the cool kids on campus. someone was telling me at a luncheon how recoba :facepalm: was the best ever
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Post by jibers Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:51 pm

@Tito

I have said several time the best of in football is pointless because it is a complicated sport with specialities and different roles. Zidane was a great player no doubt, but when people start saying he was in a different league to Iniesta that's when the whole thing falls apart.

It's a shame we never saw R9 play at his absolute peak for an extended period, for me he was a playmaker.
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:15 pm

It is Iniesta for me . I value his skill on the ball is at the very least as great as Zidane's ever was , even if in the end it's just a matter of taste most of the time. Iniesta also somehow manages to do better when trying to defend and be better at it than Zidane was . Zidane would mostly foul people when trying to take the ball , and simply wasn't as good at defending space . However all that can also be attributed to tactics or demands , so meh , i don't really care about their weaknesses or stuff like that , it's their strengths we talk about anyway. Mainly though, i also don't think Zidane has broken down defences as many times as Iniesta has in his career.

Maybe that's also tactics but i also seem to remember Zidane didn't hold his position as well as Iniesta has in his career. You would see Zidane all over the pitch at times , often times leaving the key passes to others , or occupy striker area of play when he should be the one who provides , given his skill . That's barely the case with Iniesta though , simply i cannot even remember when was the last time i saw Iniesta being out of position , or exposed , for that matter . Only times i see him out of position is when he moves in to finish a goal he worked with teammates to create. Maybe when he was being played further forward by Tata Martino i think ..

I barely remember anything from Zidane at Juventus and i am 25. I watched the WC 98 games , not everything , not most of it , certainly not all France games . But i do remember Zidane was simply fantastic for France and he was often their clutch player in attack and with style on top of it. I also saw him fail later on in Euro 2004. People back then were saying Zidane alone would wreak havoc in Greece's defence , but it was ultimately Henry that was the biggest threat , Zidane wasn't anything special that night . Basically he wasn't anything special the entire tournament really , everyone was saying how he would have his redemption for WC 2002 , but imho he never managed anything of the sort that summer.

After he moved to Real i watched him frequently on tv and always have later on. I saw plenty of Zidane and he wasn't any worse than his Juventus days , from what little highlights i've seen from his time then. Himself has said when he played Maldini he used to change sides lol . Whilst that was mostly between the truth and hyperbole to praise THE GOD PAOLO Proud , really it was mainly Del Piero (or/and Inzaghi) who made the difference in these usually low goal encounters.

I'd say he played his best football in Real Madrid , if you ask me. Like Jibers said , Del Piero was THE man back then anyway . I also have a friend who's 41 now and always had a passion for both Italian football and especially Juventus , which were super strong for a good part of the 90s. And he has more than confirmed that to me ages ago about Del Piero . I also saw a lot of Del Piero but not his truly best years. Zidane was of course great as well and added a dynamic DP alone would never manage by himself, but ADP was the real deal at Juventus. He was Juventus' R9 .

To put it simply , for me , Iniesta is at the very least as good as Zidane ever was and maybe smarter . He looks like a kid at 30 years old and you can't take the ball off of him without force. You simply can't . Zidane had the physique to back up his sublime technique too . Iniesta doesn't even have that and he's also better at being more productive when escaping sticky situations , something Zidane rarely did at this rate(at least from what i do remember..) .He was very capable of escaping almost any challenge , but the ball wouldn't necessarily move to threatening areas after. Iniesta not only manages to keep the ball , he'll also create something out of nowhere after it , dare i say especially when challenged. Iniesta for me is a god , don't care how much biased this sounds . Those who say he is overrated , in the true sense over rated , understand very little of this game.

Iniesta has at least as good as Zidane's ball control , has vision and judgement only 2nd to Xavi , at least as good as Rui Costa's cut through passes , can think of dribbles even Ronaldinho would stand up and applaud and he's as big game player as anyone i've seen . As if all that isn't enough , Iniesta is one of the most quick thinkers in the game . I literally struggle to think of players who can think and act faster than he does on the ball , and with such efficiency and finesse .
It's simply unfair how good he is . You can't do the shit he pulls off in the playstation , there are no Iniesta mechanics created in FIFA / PES yet , to put it simply . I don't remember the game but i saw Iniesta do a dribble in the box , either last season or the season before , that i simply haven't seen before , not Zidane not anybody could even think of that dribble right there , let alone pull it off .

It's not only skill here , he's one of the smartest mofos ever to play on that level . The very fact he's been compared to Zidane speaks volumes of just how great he has become . And i also agree there's been some sort of myth around Zidane ever since 2006 . He was a brilliant player though , just like Iniesta and that's all i consider in the end.
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Post by Bankz Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:32 pm

Jibers killing it tbh..

I have the same problem with zidane's position among people too. Yes he was great but not to the extent some people would make you believe. Infact when or anytime u asked anybody what made zidane great it was usually about the intangibles, infact I even heard one guy say he's the best slow motion player ever, another said he didn't know why but he just knew zidane was the best. Can u imagine? its those ridiculous stuff that tires me tbh.

For instance, watching zidane and ronaldo play, it was too evident who the obvious better player/talent was. Yet u still hear people talking bout zidane being in the top 10 bracket when he wasn't even the best in his era.

Like totti ones said, he said the worse tragedy of football was that the game never got to see R9 at his best!!! I think that sums it up.

For instance u wonder how zidane won the WPOTY in 2003 (over henry and ronaldo) and 1998 (over ronaldo) when he wasn't even the best player 10 players in the WC. When it comes to him, people kind of have this selective memory.

Zidane could go on a 7 game absence and suddenly in the 8th game, he'll do a roulette and the media goes wild for weeks. Infact I remember zidane's so called legacy was almost forgotten from 2004 and after the WC he was called GOAT.
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Post by Bankz Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:49 pm

@dante zidane was never fantastic for france during france 98. I watched all of it. He was busy getting himself sent off and in the games he played he was practically meh or absent from the games against saudi arabia in the group stage to ko rounds against paraguay and croatia where france had thuram to thank for their qualification to the finals.

And up to the finals R9 was far and away the tournaments best player till the final (before what happened to ronaldo on the eve of the final in paris which is a matter for another day).

So zidane did great in the final but that was it as the brazilian squad were already mentally demoralized because of the thoughts of ronaldo in their minds (I've watched about 10 different interviews from that of mario zagallo to carlos to dunga to cafu to leonardo). It is worth knowing that ronaldo's name was even initially omitted from the team sheet some hrs before the game and re-included some minutes later (oweing to pressure from R9 himself and nike) and the rest was history after that.

So my point is zidane was anything but special in that world cup aside the final infact I think he played bout 4/5 games overall in the tournament.
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Post by titosantill Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:59 pm

every galactico's career including roberto carlos (who i consider the best or second best left back ever) got forgotten in 04 and 05. same goes for r9. scheva, henry, eto'o, adriano where the guys in those 2-3 yrs. he was put under the microscope at the world cup cos he said he was retiring. i never get what fans want lol, a player plays in small games, "he's a fraud" (i agree with this though). one plays in big games, "he didn't do it enough against mallorca, catania, brescia et al"

and as i said, there are big games and big games. that whole 7 game absence is a huge stretch. the numbers and dominance of select group of teams has created blurred lines. very soon, suarez will be better than r9 cos "r9 played on great teams, never won a ucl and had only 1 league title"....or because "rivaldo carried him to the world cup and he stole it in the final against germany" or better still "r9 disappeared for madrid"
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:04 pm

maybe it's the final i remember and clouds my judgement. (maybe nostalgia effect , i did like Zidane a lot truth be told) I'll gladly take your word for it anyway . I was what what barely 9 then?

As for Ronaldo , yes , no contest there. Even Zidane himself has said so , i think , in the past . As for the golden balls and all , yeeah , Cannavaro won one ....and Maldini and Baresi never won it lel , so , i don't raise an eyebrow on stuff like this . Ballon O'dor and all that mean very little to me for quite a long time now .

Finally , do we even know what had really happened with Ronaldo back then? I never sit down to find out tbh . I think as kids back at the time we were saying they caught him with anabolics Proud

Not saying that's what happened , i don't know really. Has the truth been out about that?
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Post by titosantill Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:13 pm

he had a fit. i think it was the pressure more than anything else, sometimes those things happen in tense situations. it wasn't steroids. the controversial part about it wasn't the fit or convulsion, but whether he was forced to play by nike, since edmundo should have started. lol france would have really thrashed them if edmundo had gone on the pitch....that guy's a maniac. roberto carlos who was his roommate was brought to testify, and for whatever reason, both of them had a brief falling out because of it, but obviously made up not long after.

he was scared of having another seizure in 02, and didn't get much sleep. he joked with dida all night and dida cheered him up, so he wouldn't have to worry about another issue....in time i know that comeback will become "overrated", and people will go "well brazil didn't play any strong side besides, england and he didn't score in that, so its a myth"...i was particularly very happy for him even though i didn't support either team. but i wanted brazil to win it and r9 score, made for a great story
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Post by Harmonica Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:48 pm

@Dante wrote:Finally , do we even know what had really happened with Ronaldo back then? I never sit down to find out tbh . I think as kids back at the time we were saying they caught him with anabolics Proud

Not saying that's what happened , i don't know really. Has the truth been out about that?
http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/

1990’s – The sorry fate of Ronaldo

Ronaldo PSV doping

In the public’s eye the Brazilian Ronaldo ruined his own career through overeating, but perhaps an even bigger problem that prevented Ronaldo from delivering on his promise were his terrible knee injuries. At 21, he had won the Ballon d’Or twice and looked set to become one of the all-time greats. But repeated tendon ruptures ended that dream. According to Bernardino Santi, anti-doping official at the Brazilian football Federation, Ronaldo’s injuries were no coincidence. Doping use was to blame.

"I spoke to some colleagues in Holland. They told me that Ronaldo, who was very fragile at the time, received steroids during his period at PSV. As a result his muscles grew more than his tendons were capable of sustaining."

Santi was promptly fired by the Brazilian football association, but similar statements have been made by Italian author Enzo Palladini, who wrote a biography on Ronaldo.

http://www.foxcrawl.com/2012/02/03/video-brazilian-ronaldo-near-death-experience-at-1998-world-cup-final/

"Professor Doctor Bruno Caru, president of the Italian Society of Cardiology in Sports, re-checked the medical records of former Brazilian striker and during a program broadcast by “Mediaset” the doctor explained that the puzzling collapse was not related to epilepsy, but to heart issues, i.e. heart attack."

Heart and ligament problems at that young age both point in the direction of steroid use, as a known side effects of it.
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Post by titosantill Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:08 am

here we go with the heresay...by the way your first link almost gave me a virus. thanks to the good folks at avg
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Post by Dante Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:19 am

i stopped at Mediaset really , didn't even bother with the links after that Laughing

never go full Mediaset again , friendly advice .
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Post by Valkyrja Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:23 am

@Harmonica wrote:

Heart and ligament problems at that young age both point in the direction of steroid use, as a known side effects of it.


At least, we can say that Bale has something in common with R9
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Post by Doc Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:55 am

Honestly, both are probably about the same legendary skill level and both have accomplished as much as their undoubted talents can achieve within their respective circumstances. But Zidane would always win this argument. Hands down. Not because of some stat or trophy count but simply a nostalgic and sincere viewing of his career.

I grew up watching him play and admiring everything about him. His grace and elegance for someone of his size, his ridiculous ability to control a football which went hand in hand with being able to naturally use both feet, his leader among men sort of attitude which made his "violent" tendencies very interesting to say the least.

It's not that I didn't see his flaws either. He had a tendency to just walk around the pitch and a bit "lazy". And of course, talent like that would never always have great games and he would have a bad match here or there. But he wasn't someone who hid from the big occasion and he knew he was depended on. I remember fondly Hitzfeld literally adjusting his entire Bayern defense tactics to neutralise Zidane by not man marking him but zonal marking his range of passing. At the time, it was a big deal.

But I am bias and shouldn't be taken objectively at all. Don't apologise for it either. In conclusion, I love Iniesta as much as Dante and fancy him just the same but Zidane is someone that honestly means a lot to my football upbringing. No top ten crap, no he has more trophies, just good old Doc liking Zidane just that much more.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:57 am

I think we should all just get along and agree with everything each other says.
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Post by Doc Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:02 am

Except Hans. Upon reading, he has been particularly salty when it comes to Madrid. Something is afoot...
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:09 am

Well that's a general rule with anything concerning Hans tbf.

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Post by hoangdungksp Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:18 am

If you need a video to compare 2 this players. I will make now Smile
But, I love Zidane's skills

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Post by guest_07 Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:54 am

@hoangdungksp wrote:If you need a video to compare 2 this players. I will make now Smile
But, I love Zidane's skills


go on

i'm happy to see that

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Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:54 pm

@Doc wrote:Except Hans. Upon reading, he has been particularly salty when it comes to Madrid. Something is afoot...


I quit smoking 6 days ago. Haven't been in a good mood for one second since. It's a problem.
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Post by Dante Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:24 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Doc wrote:Except Hans. Upon reading, he has been particularly salty when it comes to Madrid. Something is afoot...


I quit smoking 6 days ago. Haven't been in a good mood for one second since. It's a problem.


I know how that feels like.

I've tried to quit many times before , can't deal with myself longer than a day or two. I know how it is . 6 days is a fine start , i've heard from people who've quit that it's just the first week that is miserable to deal with. After your body but mostly the mind , adapts to it all after the first week , i've been told it gets a lot easier

I also tried many times but. I am so weak ffs Proud

I was thinking about it actually last week . I was thinking to do something i read about quitting , that is to set a date in the vicinity of 2-3 months , what anyone thinks comfortable but not too far into the future , and prepare myself that after that day , i'll quit. Apparently you have a lot of time to prepare , accept the change , there's a transition taking place. Allegedly it works . I am really thinking about it , because anything else i've tried was simply not working for me.

anyway keep at it Hans , 6 days is no joke , honest af here
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Post by Doc Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:46 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Doc wrote:Except Hans. Upon reading, he has been particularly salty when it comes to Madrid. Something is afoot...


I quit smoking 6 days ago. Haven't been in a good mood for one second since. It's a problem.

Not that I know you at any personal level but I did find your posts were a bit over the top than your usual disdain for all things Madridista. Figured it had to be something external.

As Dante mentioned, keep up the good fight man.
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Iniesta vs Zidane (revisited) - Page 4 Empty Re: Iniesta vs Zidane (revisited)

Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:54 pm

You sensed right. You know me like a brother tbh. I'm extremely irritable and cranky and would really like to pick a fight.

You *bleep* clowns all of you.
Hapless_Hans
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