ISIS terror attacks around the world

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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:29 am

RedOranje wrote:Being hungry, being scared, feeling threatened or oppressed... those are the seedbed of radicalism and hate and violence.  Religion is simply the vector for it in the current instance.

Oppressed meaning: subject to harsh and authoritarian treatment.

Hmm, can anyone think of a particular idology with about 1.6 billion adherents to whom ascetic and authoritarian rule is the best way to organise society? I can.

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Post by Unique Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:50 am

RedOranje wrote:Because at the moment they are in a region that is much more unstable and has been imposed upon in recent times. Being hungry, being scared, feeling threatened or oppressed... those are the seedbed of radicalism and hate and violence. Religion is simply the vector for it in the current instance.

Just as was the case in Europe in Medieval period, leading to things like the Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, and such. If not religion, the violence would almost certainly still be there, just with a more overtly political, or economic, or cultural trapping.
but we are not living in the medieval period now mate. we all live in the same world. lots of people around the world have a pretty shit life. but not all of them kill people. and I'm not just talking about the west that have problems with islam. lots of muslims in muslim countries suffer at the hands of islam. if I told you stoning a woman to death for cheating on her husband is ok you would call me crazy. yet millions of muslim men think like that and your sort of making excusses for it. if we forget about the terrorist acts around the world for 1 minute and just look at the suffering of millions of muslims around the world by islam its shocking. just look at how muslim women are treated. how can anyone not disagree with that.
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Post by RedOranje Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:01 am

@DuringTheWar:
Well, I wouldn't say Trump has THAT many supporters yet.


@Unique:
I cannot, and will not, attempt to debate this if you are going to simply ignore or write off entire portions of history just because they don't conform to you current views. Learn from them, don't ignore them.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:07 am

In parts of the middle east and other places around the world, we are in a medieval period.  Also, Religions evolve.  How many years after the birth of Christianity did the Crusades, etc. occur?  What were the reasons?  Now think about how many years it has been since the beginning of the Muslim religion and the specific circumstances that have led to the radicalization of a minority segment.

Also, the Muslim radicals have a long ways to go before matching the bloodshed done in the name of Christianity.

Comparing atrocities and keeping a scoresheet is stupid though.  Everyone should feel that every new life destroyed in the name of a perverted doctrine is one life too many.
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Post by Unique Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:14 am

RedOranje wrote:@DuringTheWar:
Well, I wouldn't say Trump has THAT many supporters yet.


@Unique:
I cannot, and will not, attempt to debate this if you are going to simply ignore or write off entire portions of history just because they don't conform to you current views. Learn from them, don't ignore them.
I'm not righting off history mate. my whole point is that religion has done harm to people from the time it was created. and that goes for all religions. but as of this day 2016 islam is doing more harm to people around the world than any other by a long long way. as I said if we just forget about the rest of the world and just look at how many muslims suffer at the hands of islam around the world today is shocking.
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Post by Adit Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:24 am

sportsczy wrote:Just because Islam is being misinterpreted by the clerics, you can't dislike Islam... Christianity did the same thing many many times, the most famous of which were the crusades.

I don't understand how some project the perversion of a religion to the religion itself. Want to know what the message is supposed to be? Go the source. Read the Bible, Qur'an, etc. Don't let somebody else tell you what you should think. Do your independent research.


I have read both Bible and Quran and they are both terribly wrong on many things and incompatible with democratic laws and have little regard for equality, humanity etc. The message? It's not really one message is it? Both the books tells you how to live. They gives you opinions as laws of god and gives out punishment for disagreement.

Bible directly tells us that Women are second grade citizen. It is also homophobic and punishes gays with stoning.

Islam.. You get 100 lashes for adultery and sex outside marriage. Doesn't matter if you are in France, us or Pakistan a true Muslim who follows Quran believes they deserves punishment. It's homophobic and gays are punished if they don't show resentment.Women are not allowed to marry non believers but men are. Women inherit half the wealth of men.....lot of laws in Quran that contradicts any kind of democratic laws.

So let's not act as if both religions on pure form actually practical. They are not.
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Post by Winter is Coming Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:45 pm

Incompatible with democratic laws? Isn't the whole point of these religion gods law > man made laws? So what is this talk about incompatibility with x law? Little regards to equality and humanity? I don't see it that way.
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Post by rincon Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:47 pm

sportsczy wrote:Just because Islam is being misinterpreted by the clerics, you can't dislike Islam... Christianity did the same thing many many times, the most famous of which were the crusades.

I don't understand how some project the perversion of a religion to the religion itself. Want to know what the message is supposed to be? Go the source. Read the Bible, Qur'an, etc. Don't let somebody else tell you what you should think. Do your independent research.

What is a religion but a reflection of its followers? Of course you can project the actions of religious followers onto the religion if they claim their actions in the name of their creed. Religion changes, whatever it was meant to be 2000 years ago is not what it is now. It got molded by what their followers and detractors have done through history.

Religion (any religion) is a collection of what the followers say it is. If you have some extremist terrorist group saying Islam is "X and Y". Then to some degree, if they have enough following, Islam IS "X and Y". Why are they more wrong about what Islam is than a different pacifist group?
Its an organic subject matter that's always changing and has no clear definition, but a collection of definitions that make up the image of Islam. You ask a millions of Muslims what Islam is and you get millions of answers.

"The perversion of a religion" becomes the religion itself, always. Just like how Christianity right now isn't what it was 300 years ago. Christianity's lax ideas today would have been seen as a perversion of it in the past. And if today someone came out and acted like Christians did during the crusades then people would say its nothing more than a "perversion" of what they think Christianity "actually is".

These terrorists are using Islam for their own twisted ideas. That doesn't mean that any other Muslim but them is bad in any way, it just means that Islam is involved. Denying Islam is involved is impossible. It might be a perverted version of it, but its Islam.
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:47 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:Incompatible with democratic laws?  Isn't the whole point of these religion gods law > man made laws? So what is this talk about incompatibility with x law? Little regards to equality and humanity? I don't see it that way.

Interesting question. Mark 12:17 - "And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him"

That was a reference to taxes specifically but it does set out a more general principle for Christians to live under secular law.

There is no such leeway given to the notion that secular law has any legitimacy in the Qu'ran as far as I'm aware. It is the literal and final word of God after all.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:14 pm

That depend on your definition... Religion is about accepting a prophet and the content of his scripture. The interpretation of that scripture is completely man made.

For example, the Christian faith has Catholics, Protestants, and many more variations. The difference? The interpretation of the Bible.

Similarly, these terrorists are accepting their leaders interpretation of the Qur'an. A very perverse interpretation.
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Post by rincon Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:32 pm

No one is simply accepting the contents of any scripture. It'd be impossible for the most part. Everyone interprets it differently to the level their culture permits. Its people that give meaning to a religion.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:48 pm

That part I completely disagree with... And a big reason for many of the religious problems. It's not impossible to interpret scripture yourself. In fact, you need to do your independent research. Just blindly accepting some other dude's interpretation is very naive.

For example, reading the Bible and understanding the historical and cultural context it was written in is crucial. Then you can see how circumstances have changed and figure out how the message applies to today.
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Post by Adit Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:52 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:Incompatible with democratic laws? Isn't the whole point of these religion gods law > man made laws? So what is this talk about incompatibility with x law? Little regards to equality and humanity? I don't see it that way.


Well I don't think there will be any doubt that some religious laws are directly contradicting with democratic laws.

The person who fully believes in religion may not be able to live properly in a democratic country. See, muslim women can challenge the 1/3rd wealth law in Quran in court and they will get 1/2. Of wealth in America. That makes it difficult for a Muslim to live as it was said in holy book.

The point is, if anyone wants to live under religious laws then they should find such countries themselves. Them staying in democratic countries and Iin this context such people migrating to democratic countries is pointless.
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Post by Adit Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:57 pm

sportsczy wrote:That part I completely disagree with... And a big reason for many of the religious problems. It's not impossible to interpret scripture yourself. In fact, you need to do your independent research. Just blindly accepting some other dude's interpretation is very naive.

For example, reading the Bible and understanding the historical and cultural context it was written in is crucial. Then you can see how circumstances have changed and figure out how the message applies to today.


There is good and bad in those holy books. The smart people take the good and leaves the bad, they will also take the time into consideration ( even though holy books have said that it is for forever).

Now the other groups will take everything as it said in the scriptures, not even taking the time into consideration and believing the lie that it is the laws for all ages.
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Post by rincon Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:02 pm

sportsczy wrote:That part I completely disagree with...  And a big reason for many of the religious problems.  It's not impossible to interpret scripture yourself.  In fact, you need to do your independent research.  Just blindly accepting some other dude's interpretation is very naive.



I said its mostly impossible to just accept scripture, precisely because you need to interpret to whatever degree you want.

Because of exactly this:
sportsczy wrote:For example, reading the Bible and understanding the historical and cultural context it was written in is crucial.  Then you can see how circumstances have changed and figure out how the message applies to today.


Religion is no longer just about accepting a prophet and the content of his scripture like you said. Its anachronistic now. How its viewed, followed and practiced depends entirely on each person's interpretation. The only "absolute" part of Islam or Christianity leftover nowadays is the book. Every other aspect of it is defined by its practitioners. Hence why its not unreasonable to project the actions of the preachers onto the religion itself.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:12 pm

So you want to project the crazy Christian cults in the US on entire Christianity? How about the Jewish extremists who killed the Israeli prime minister years back?

I disagree with your definition of religion. So we can agree to disagree.
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Post by rincon Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:36 pm

Yes, those are part of the Christian and Jewish whole. I'm not attacking Islam. I don't care about any religion. But these groups act in accordance to their faith. On their interpretation of their religion.

They interpret the creed one way, we interpret it another way. They both exist. Denying that their beliefs is part of Christianity or Judaism or Islam is not different from them calling out moderates on being "fake" about their religion. Its all based on books and teaching that one has to interpret, like you say, one has to consider their context and their historical timeframe. That opens up for a lot of disagreement.
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Post by Unique Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:47 pm

http://news.sky.com/story/1667941/suicide-bomber-kills-56-in-packed-pakistan-park

This is terrible. They deliberately targeted women and children.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:51 pm

That part I agree. But I don't agree to project the beliefs and actions of an extreme minority onto the majority. That's what extremists want...

Although they say they're Islamic... 95% of their messages are either made up or perversions. Just because you say you're Muslin and you say some of the words, it doesn't make you Muslim.

I'm.not Muslim btw.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:01 pm

https://i.imgur.com/HsuhEAQ.png

Terrorism is at all time lows, on average, yet fear of terrorism is at all time highs. Even in the worst year in the past decade, 2015, that's just 150 deaths spread out over the pop of UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, France (300m people) & whatever "other" includes. 150/300,000,000 is really f***ing low. You take on a significantly higher risk every time you cross the street or get on a car.

I think everyone should take a chill pill.
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Post by Onyx Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:09 pm

Pretty sure there's a chart out there shows the majority of victims of terrorism are actually Muslims in the middle east. Yet that sort of news doesn't make headlines in the Western world and so a lot of westerners think that terrorist groups are only after non Muslims.

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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:29 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:https://i.imgur.com/HsuhEAQ.png

Terrorism is at all time lows, on average, yet fear of terrorism is at all time highs. Even in the worst year in the past decade, 2015, that's just 150 deaths spread out over the pop of UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, France (300m people) & whatever "other" includes. 150/300,000,000 is really f***ing low. You take on a significantly higher risk every time you cross the street or get on a car.

I think everyone should take a chill pill.

I think we should be careful not to conflate "fear of" with "anger at". And what fear there is, stems more from conditions in the world changing in the way they currently are and the future effects than it does from the record over the last 10 years.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:08 pm

BC... It's more about where the attacks are occurring and the fact that everything is sensationalized and politicized. Everything is extreme these days, not just the terrorists.
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Post by Adit Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:13 pm

In other news 50 killed in Pakistan over suicide bombing. They Targeted Easter gathering in park and most of them were children. Pakistan seriously needs to treat their minorities (the whatever that exist) better.
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Post by Adit Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:19 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote: i]. You take on a significantly higher risk every time you cross the street or get on a car.

I think everyone should take a chill pill.


You sounds exactly like the gun apologist who uses the same argument.

Don't compare accidents to deliberate murderers please. It's not fair.
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Post by FennecFox7 Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:20 pm

DuringTheWar wrote:
RedOranje wrote:Being hungry, being scared, feeling threatened or oppressed... those are the seedbed of radicalism and hate and violence.  Religion is simply the vector for it in the current instance.

Oppressed meaning: subject to harsh and authoritarian treatment.

Hmm, can anyone think of a particular idology with about 1.6 billion adherents to whom ascetic and authoritarian rule is the best way to organise society? I can.


YOU REALLY THINK we are idiots and that we WANT these dicatorships to rule our countries?

You think we enjoy it when we have leaders like sad dam and assad in power Laughing is that what you're saying?

Please clarify buddy and don't act like you didn't see this post because this is AMAZINGLY offensive to probably everyone in GL from an Arabic country. You're crossing the wrong lines
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