Valencia FC 0 v FC Barcelona 1 | November 30 | Estadio Mestalla

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Generally I still feel some of you need to realize that if you are not prepared to settle for anything less than Pepcelona, there's a good chance you'll be miserable and unsatisfied until the rest of your lives.

Spot on. I've watched the vast majority of Barca's game this season and although this was nowhere near the heights we've seen these core players play at it wasn't that different from what we've seen all season. The fact of the matter is, Barca won't dominate with this set of players the way they used to.

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Generally I still feel some of you need to realize that if you are not prepared to settle for anything less than Pepcelona, there's a good chance you'll be miserable and unsatisfied until the rest of your lives.

You think? That's the motto of Barcelona fanbase, be miserable and unsupportive.

Believe me we know Pepcelona is done and dusted. Pepcelona was finished while Pep was still coach

Point is the team is completely disjointed tactically. We don't really know how we're supposed to play. When we can't be dominant through the center and play our "link-up" game, we keep pointless possession on the wings and just play the safe pass and give up balls cheaply either through crosses or dribbles. There's no clear cut vision. There are just 3 geniuses up front trying to salvage games because the mid can't create and move the ball up and the defense is shoddy at best.

Somehow I think this barcelona is squeezing the most out of its squad that it possibly can. It's early days in the rebuild process, but what's scary is that there are missing pieces of the puzzle like a midfield link to the forwards and also a reliable CB.

On a positive note I think Pique had a good game, I saw him organizing the defense and leading on 2 occasions. We really need that because we are unable to control games in the mid and so our defense is way more exposed.

Also, the Busquets-Mascherano double pivot I didn't like. Barca midfielders get involved offensively but Busquets and Masch aren't playmakers - they usually won't find the final pass (which is needed when you got those players upfront.)
Maybe Enrique was playing it defensively with the double pivot, but if so he should have sacrificed one of Neymar/Suarez for a midfielder to allow for more control. Xavi wasn't effective despite Busquets and Masch playing so high up to give him support. He needs a true attacking mid by his side to be effective.

I think the Busquets-Mascherano midfield could work without Xavi. If Iniesta were fit Busquets could do a better impression of the Xavi role than the Iniesta role. Instead what we got were two CMs that didn't venture forward that much or move about the sides.

Busquets

Busquets fanboy ecstatic right now

win at 93 min....thought the santa clause sent the gift early....
no one is praising Bravo !!! i know his bravery hurts many because this will not be good news for the young keeper (on a positive note the young german can get e longer Xmas vaccation )
i think Bravo was the MOM because we should have won the game even without Busq's goal but without those fine saves the game would have been lost...did anyone see how the valencia coach kicked the side bench roof   after one of the saves....
Suarez the Miss Master is trying too much to score....yes he missed some easy chances (without doing any discredit to valencia keeper) but goals will come sooner or later. An EPL top scorer should not loose confidence on him... I am worried not about his missing but his reactions....On another day he would have passed the ball to Messi standing alone in front of bar rather than taking a childish shot to outside net and then more childishly sleeping few seconds on the floor....
also can someone explain me the exact reason of Lucho using two DM this game??? was that a defensive approach??? if so, salute to him playing second round of Cl vs a top team (considering PSG will park the bus and we will be 2nd in the group)

Contrary to popular belief, suarez isnt really an efficient/good finisher. He's just a very clutch striker. Him playing in the middle would do us more harm than good in the long run. This is not liverpool where everything is bout emotions (he's like a child, always in a hurry and seems too raw). This is barcelona. Its all about using your brain.. Just take a look at messi ffs. Always calm even when under pressure, using his brain while at it..

I assume Neymar was using his brain then when he directed that point blank header from 2 yards straight into Diego Alves' gloves and proved that he should play in the middle.

at first i thought, it was an excellent save from Alves but after the replay i too felt the same. Neymar should have done better there....

@fussball. What does neymar have to do with it? Did i say neymar was better than him? Or didn't i agree after your post that neymar was better off on the left? Even after saying my heart felt otherwise? Why being so touchy bout suarez? offcourse he should have done miles better with the heading no questions. But, Without the header its 2 points lost in the first place. Moreso it's not like i came out to say he was our saviour/best player or something. I compared suarez to messi in this game for a reason, i did so cause i liked messi's game more (and generally). And also i didnt compare neymar to suarez cause i also knew he had an off game too..so whats with the overeaction? Or are u going to act like what i said bout suarez isnt true? Its not like i go out saying suarez is a bad player or that he isn't great, just that he's better off a main striker or from the left (cause of the amount of point blank misses from his ajax/liverpool days). Or did i say anything wrong?

I'm not touchy, I just didn't realize I had already convinced you so quickly regarding Nerman in the middle. I'm used to the disputes with Dani which usually take about 6 - 18 months without coming to an agreement anyway so I guess I didn't even realize that you agreed with me after 1 post.

Anyway, yes, Suarez is more wasteful than Messi. Like anyone else. If that's the argument.

so far Barcelona is the only team getting 3 points from Mestalla this season....if we have Athletic yet to play, Real also need to go Mestalla... just saying...

Yes. I agreed cause your argument just seemed straight-forward and logical as opposed to me. (i admit i was talking with my heart, like i rightfully pointed out). But it isn't just about messi though. Its bout being more wasteful than your average no 9. Anyway, a goat forward though. Would prefer if he had more calmness in his game. Sort of like messi, neymar, ibra. Well, like you said, i guess we all have to adjust to his deficiencies like every other player in the team.

This is exactly why I dont want to see any "double pivot".

Mascherano and Busquets standing 5m from each other in the attack. Passing laterally and doing the job of 1 person with 2.

In defence, Busquets just has further distance to run and cant transition fast enough and he doesnt press high up either.

So we had no no control over the game, especially in the 2nd half and whatever defensive reinforcement the extra holding midfielder provides becomes useless.

We were incredibly lucky to win that game, it probably was a 0-0 game. Indeed Suarez missed 2 great chances and a fair goal disallowed so we could have won of course, but Bravo was probably our best player which says alot.

My expectations of this team cant be very high based on our performances and lack of control in these difficult games.

The problem was that it wasn't a double pivot and you're obviously aware of it as you described it as a "double pivot". Double pivot implies that 2 players are playing as pivots. This was just the usual 4-3-3 with 1 pivot and Busquets moved further forward but looking uncomfortable at it (for obvious reasons) with old blunt knife Xavi accompanying both Mascherano and Busquets = 0 penetration from midfield.

However this doesn't mean a double pivot can't work in general for us. If executed properly that is. One double pivot system I have in my mind for example would see Busquets and Mascherano splitting the pitch horizontally. Iniesta infront of them. Messi and Nerman slightly inverted playing off Suarez. Like this:

----------------------Suarez--------------------
-------------------------------------------------
-------Nerman-----------------------Messi-------
----------------------Iniesta--------------------
Alba----------------------------------------Alves
-------Mascherano---------------Busquets-------
-------------------------------------------------
--------------Mathieu---------Pique--------------

Once Busquets and Masch split their duties like this it allows Nerman and Messi to come central more often as each of Masch and Busquets will cover 1 side of the pitch instead of 1 pivot screening the entire pitch horizontally which means they are closer to the flanks to intercept long diagonals to each wing (standard counterattacking move) or mark the onrushing fullback. Replace Mascherano with Alonso, Iniesta with Xavi, Nerman with Iniesta and Messi with Silva and that's basically Spain's shape from WC 10 and EC 12. Doesn't have to be a permanent formation but it's probably worth experimenting and something genuinenly different compared to asking Busquets to become Xavi in the usual 4-3-3 and pretending that it's a double pivot system.

i would change mascherano to the right, as the right side would get destroyed with pace alone..

alves / pique/ buscuit in one side is a recipe for disaster.

Fussball I know your Rakitic hate is string but there is no reason why he can't play the role you assigned Iniesta.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Fussball I know your Rakitic hate is string but there is no reason why he can't play the role you assigned Iniesta.

I never said Rakitic couldn't play that role. I just suggested a double pivot formation assuming everyone was fit. Of course Rakitic could also play in that position.

By the way. I just realized Suarez was wrongly called offside twice but the other time he missed anyway. Full match highlights in HD:



So basically Suarez was put through on goal 3 times. Before Valencia created anything of note. Should have passed to Messi infront of an empy goal as well. That should really be enough to win a game comfortably under normal circumstances and it's also quite a lot against a team like Valencia away from home. Especially with the intensity they played with. Don't understand the doom. Wasn't a picture book performance but when was it in the Mestalla?

Fußball wrote:The problem was that it wasn't a double pivot and you're obviously aware of it as you described it as a "double pivot". Double pivot implies that 2 players are playing as pivots. This was just the usual 4-3-3 with 1 pivot and Busquets moved further forward but looking uncomfortable at it (for obvious reasons) with old blunt knife Xavi accompanying both Mascherano and Busquets = 0 penetration from midfield.

However this doesn't mean a double pivot can't work in general for us. If executed properly that is. One double pivot system I have in my mind for example would see Busquets and Mascherano splitting the pitch horizontally. Iniesta infront of them. Messi and Nerman slightly inverted playing off Suarez. Like this:

----------------------Suarez--------------------
-------------------------------------------------
-------Nerman-----------------------Messi-------
----------------------Iniesta--------------------
Alba----------------------------------------Alves
-------Mascherano---------------Busquets-------
-------------------------------------------------
--------------Mathieu---------Pique--------------

Once Busquets and Masch split their duties like this it allows Nerman and Messi to come central more often as each of Masch and Busquets will cover 1 side of the pitch instead of 1 pivot screening the entire pitch horizontally which means they are closer to the flanks to intercept long diagonals to each wing (standard counterattacking move) or mark the onrushing fullback. Replace Mascherano with Alonso, Iniesta with Xavi, Nerman with Iniesta and Messi with Silva and that's basically Spain's shape from WC 10 and EC 12. Doesn't have to be a permanent formation but it's probably worth experimenting and something genuinenly different compared to asking Busquets to become Xavi in the usual 4-3-3 and pretending that it's a double pivot system.

Still hate it. With the ball, Mascherano and Busquets are doing the job of 1 player, but manage to require them both to do it.

So many times they stand basically in line with each other and pass square. That's fine in general terms, but at some juncture someone has to carry the ball forward or make a pass in between the lines and then continue the run.

In any double pivot you always get one player playing the sort of "box to box" role who makes vertical runs forward with and/or without the ball. Busquets wont ever do it and Mascherano cant.

Its obviously better than making Busquets play the "Xavi role" but neither intrest me.

Fußball wrote: Don't understand the doom. Wasn't a picture book performance but when was it in the Mestalla?

Its simple, we played like crap and had no control over the game.

Chances missed (or if they were scored in this case) would simply disguise the actual performance level.

There was no control over the game at all.

I subscribe to the Valenica at Mestalla is always a hard game. We struggled there with Tata, Tito and Pep too. It is worrying, however, that Lucho has not looked good in a single top game yet.

Oh course its a tough game..but its not news to anyone, if you want to be a great team you have to play well against other great teams..and Valencia arent even great (even at home), they are merely pretty good.

I think there is something in between "picture book performance" and how we played in this game, that something in the middle is acceptable.

our problem is that we are not consistent.
its december and we still do not have a starting lineup other then messi neymar suarez and alves.

all other players are random as hell.

consistent in performance??? i think you blaming players right??? if so, is there any other team that tested so much with starting XI and formation?? also, the defense does not look so bad. all the problems lying in midfield and if we could correct that , much of the problems would be solved i guess...

no i am blaming the choices of players we pick for our team..
I can almost name 8 players that will forsure start for real madrid's next big game (if all are fit)
such as
pepe, ramos, carvajal, kroos, modric, bale, ronaldo, benzema
they have definite starters, and others who rotate such as marcelo/coentrao iker/kaylor and james/isco

whereas we only have messi, neymar, suarez, dani alves, and maybe buscuit who are definite starter
we have no real centerback partners because we keep changing them... same with midfield.. is rakitic our starter or xavi? both? what about iniesta..?

enrique constantly tells the press he doesn't even tell his own players who will be starting the next game until the day of..
i mean i'm sure it has it's benefits as all will fight hard for their place but really we have no consistency with our lineups i can see why the new guys such as suarez/rakitic are struggling.

i do not see this getting fixed any time soon either due to enrique doing the same with celta, they had no starting 11 just a lot of rotations..

maybe it is for the best long term, but right now it shows it's faults.

also to add one that, something i always disliked about tata/tito was that we were far too predictable and never rested xavi etc..
so rotation is nice and all but we went from the best two games in a row (last week) to completely changing the lineup and experimenting in a big game by putting buscuit xavi and masch in the midfield..
kinda like when we played madrid it was mathieus first game in the lb position in over a year and a half...
these random changes are gonna cost us.