rivaldo vs zidane

why aren't we talking about higuain in this thread.. blasphemy

Donuts wrote:why aren't we talking about higuain in this thread.. blasphemy

higuain is always brought up AFTER someone mentions benzema .

If Pippo had any idea about Zidane, he would know that he only struggled following the WC in 1998...  he had the WC hangover for about 6 months and then got injured when he just started getting back to his level.  If he would have said that 1998-1999 season was subpar, then i would completely agree.  But 1999-2000?  It was his best ever individually...  Juve messed things up a bit, but that had nothing to do with him other than his red cards.  They were transitioning from Lippi to Carlo AND Del Piero was going through a tough time getting back to his level after an injury-filled season in 1998-1999.  In fact, it took Del Piero a couple of year more.

In terms of Juve, it was a transition year with a new coach and some new players (Deschamps was gone for example)...  but Zidane was absolutely brilliant.  The only thing that cost him the BdO was 2 red cards during CL, including one headbutt.  That cost Juve in CL.  But he was undoubtedly the best player in the world then.

In fact, Zidane's prime was 1999-2004.

Both were among my favorite players in their day. I would say Rivaldo was deadlier in front of goal and had a better distance shot. Though Zidane did score beauties from distance as well, Rivaldo's left foot was a cannon. He was also a more selfish player but for a player as good as he was, it paid off most of the time.

That being said I think Zidane was just a better player. He was a player who could grab the game by the scruff and turn it around. His control and dribbling was immaculate and he was extremely calm with the ball, not to mention much more two-footed and complete than Rivaldo. I'm 28 and have been watching football since I was very little and I remember watching both of them at club and NT level as they were both players who stood out. Zidane was a class above and one of the best players I have ever seen. He was just a football master and unstoppable when at his best, even with multiple players trying to neutralize him.

The real poor moment of Zidane in Serie A was the first period imo
he had a scrub impact , at the beginning I remind the media said the best French among Zidane and Djorkaeff   was Djorkaeff (Djorkaeff is enough underrated now, he was great anyway) . Or I remember  when Italy CT Cesare Maldini said to dream a player as Djorkaeff for Italy, ignoring Zidane...
... Then Zidane scored a great goal  against Inter in November and his history changed...

farfan wrote:(...)

Raúl wasn't even the best player on his team. Mendieta wasn't even the best midfielder of the tournament. The only one that rivaled Luís Figo, in my opinion, was Fernando Redondo who only really showed up in the knockout stages. I'm quite certain that he still holds the record for most assists in a single Champions League campaign. He had that unbelievable performance in the comeback against Chelsea where he was being called the best player in the world, but he was suspended against Valencia. Zidane did *bleep* all in the UEFA Cup that season, and he headbutted someone else the next season.

Bayeta was one of the top players at EURO 2000. He was decisive against England, Romania, Turkey and he had the joint-most assists in the competition. He was the star of the underdog team in the semi-final -- Portugal had the 9th highest odds to win the competition, behind the likes of Germany, Belgium, Czech Republic and Sweden. Just as a reference of the other SF nations: Holland had the best odds, France second, Italy fourth.

Zidane was definitely the best player of the tournament. International tournaments play a huge role in WPOTY voting since it is the national team coaches and captains who vote. Footballers generally make the most awful votes -- I know we have had this debate already -- and reputations are clearly valued higher than performances.

Ronaldo was the front-runner for the Ballon d'Or in 1998. Zidane winning it is just scandalous. I already wasted my time debating this with sportzcy, if you want you can look at the last Zidane thread here. And he wasn't even the best player in his own league let alone the best player in the world in 2002. Zidane's best form was in the 2002-03 season imo -- even then he wasn't the best player in La Liga. I never watched him play at Bordeaux, but I know for sure that there was never a single club season where he was the best in his own league.

Zidane's won way too many individual awards, he deserves most of them from memory. But none of his WPOTY awards should belong to him, I'd say.

sportsczy wrote:If Pippo had any idea about Zidane

The last time I dismantled your argument in a Zidane thread, you ended up calling me a buck-toothed rabbit or something along those lines. So I'm not going to waste my time entertaining your -fueled tripe.

There should be a rule about excessive emoticon usage in posts.

Robespierre wrote:The real poor moment of Zidane in Serie A was the first period imo
he had a scrub impact , at the beginning I remind the media said the best French among Zidane and Djorkaeff   was Djorkaeff  (Djorkaeff is enough underrated now, he was great anyway) . Or I remember  when Italy CT Cesare Maldini said to dream a player as Djorkaeff for Italy, ignoring Zidane...
... Then Zidane scored a great goal  against Inter in November and his history changed...

Because they started him at holding mid playing just in front of the back 4...  not sure why tbh.  Then i remember Platini coming out publicly and saying that it was very strange to play him there and that he should be played in a higher role or why did Juve buy him.  6 months or so into the season, he was moved up and that was the end of that...  he took over.

And now Pippo shows his ignorance about Madrid and Raul  From his 2nd year at Madrid and until Zidane (and the other galacticos) arrived, Raul was the best attacking player at Madrid.  After we bought guys like R9 on the attack, he sacrificed himself for the team and played the SS role.

And you still can't handle the fact that finishing 3rd in BdO in 1997 and winning it 1998 is overwhelming and undeniable truth that Zidane could never be considered the 5th best player in Serie A in 1997-1998  But you keep telling yourself that you proved something

Pippo wrote:
Raúl wasn't even the best player on his team..

he was the top scorer in la liga for madrid and the CL's top scorer. he pretty much scored every single decisive goal on route to winning the title .
you can claim it was redondo , but the over the course of the ENTIRE season  raul was the more consistent  and decisive player for madrid .
but people with selective memory like to remember what they want . they think that redondo assist to raul against manchester united was the story of the whole season

Mendieta wasn't even the best midfielder of the tournament

he won the UEFA midfilder of the year by a landslide that year . he literally  guided valencia to the final , including a thrashing of figo's barcelona where mendieta scored two goals and assisted two  more and figo didn't do shit  .

 And he wasn't even the best player in his own league let alone the best player in the world in 2002. Zidane's best form was in the 2002-03 season imo -- even then he wasn't the best player in La Liga. I never watched him play at Bordeaux, but I know for sure that there was never a single club season where he was the best in his own league.

he was the best player in the champions league  , something that you like to  use as an argument as to why figo was the best player in the world in 2000.

the difference of course is that zidane WAS actually the best player of the CL that year  and figo wasn't . zidane also WON  the trophy by scoring crucial goals in the semis and final when figo went missing against valencia in the most decisive game of the season .

there is nothing scandalous about the 1998 BO .

zidane won the league = ronaldo didn't .
zidane won the world cup = ronaldo didn't .
zidane reached the champions league final = ronaldo didn't even play in the champions league .

zidane also won the UEFA midfielder of the year award in 1998 , was third in the BO in 1997,and won serie A foreign footballer of the year in 1997 .

+ we all know that the old system considered trophies to be an important criteria , so let's not pretend that his BO win came out of the blue or something .

once upon a time madrid only played well if raul and roberto carlos played well, i'd say between 95-99; figo's arrival helped a lot in 00, but the team still needed a little more spark. i've said before rivaldo and zizou at their peaks were both amazing footballers, but zidane was more a necessity and rivaldo a luxury....if you were to start a football team, and you had a chance to start with one of the two with whom to build your team around, for me it would have to be zidane....and sportczy is 100% correct, juve played zidane in central midfield when he first joined them , with davids just behind him; he was still good but it hampered his form....by the time he left they were crying for him, even juve owner agnelli called his replacement, pavel nedved, "more hair, less talent" when he replaced zizou (for the record, nedved was a class footballer btw)

I would like to assume Pippo's remark about Raul not being RM's best player is with respect to Suker and Morientes carrying the goal scoring load in 98 en route to the UCL title.

2000 was definitely Raul Madrid in the UCL. Don't mind our league form was absolutely awful that year.

Doc wrote:I would like to assume Pippo's remark about Raul not being RM's best player is with respect to Suker and Morientes carrying the goal scoring load in 98 en route to the UCL title.

2000 was definitely Raul Madrid in the UCL. Don't mind our league form was absolutely awful that year.

We didn't have a very good squad that season so VDB focused entirely on the UCL. From what I remember we finished 5th or 6th that season in the league.

5th. Behind a Zaragoza side that had one legit goal scorer in Milosevic and hundreds of millions of dollars in debt.

farfan wrote:there is nothing scandalous about the  1998 BO .

zidane won the  league = ronaldo didn't .
zidane won the world cup =  ronaldo didn't .
zidane reached the champions league final = ronaldo didn't even play in the champions league .

zidane also won the UEFA midfielder of the year award in 1998 , was third in the BO in 1997,and won serie A foreign footballer of the year in 1997 .

+ we all know that the old system  considered trophies to be an important criteria , so let's not pretend that his BO win came out of the blue or something .

It depended only from final , and okay it's legit because if you decide a WC with  2 goals ... besides before of 2010 WC winner = Balon d'or  ( Schillaci would have won Balon d'or 1990 if Italy won WC, basically the football   must thank Sergio Goycochea so as to have avoided this affront) , so it was a victory also "coherent" , but I repeat ,it was for the final

Ronaldo was clearly best player in that year before of final , while Zidane wasn't even the best   Juventus player, but the best was  Alessandro Del Piero. And France won the WC as team, Zidane got even red card in group ,   it was a victory of team , not one man show ( as it would have been in 2006) , Blanc scored golden goal, Thuram scored 2 goals in semifinal,not Zidane..

Ronaldo couldn't have guilt to not play CL that year, but anyway he was the Uefa Cup difference maker and in those years Uefa Cup was a GOAT cup , nothing to do with now ... you had all best  teams of every league except the 1st.  infact he won the UEFA Club Footballer of the Year (the former UEFA Best Player in Europe Award.) , the only player not CL winner to have done it.

about Serie A 98 ... I prefer not talking what it happended so as not create controversies, but I can say Ronaldo didn't win it not because of him. Surely he was the best player of the league.

i actually don't disagree that ronaldo was unplayable during that period .

but as you said , we all know that trophies mattered in the old system . so saying that zidane winning the BO in year where he contributed to a league title , a world cup , and a champions league final in a tournament where he was voted the best midfielder was a " scandal " is just ridiculous .

farfan wrote:i actually don't disagree that ronaldo was unplayable during that period .

but as you said , we all know that trophies mattered in the old system . so saying that zidane winning the BO in year where he contributed to a league title , a world cup , and a champions league final in a tournament where he was voted the best midfielder was a " scandal " is just ridiculous .

you know nothing about than time, shut up.

Rivaldo.

Killer wrote:

farfan wrote:i actually don't disagree that ronaldo was  unplayable during that period .

but as you said , we all know that trophies mattered in the old system . so saying that zidane winning the BO in year where he contributed to a league title , a world cup , and a champions league final in a tournament where he was voted the best midfielder was  a " scandal " is just ridiculous .

you know nothing about than time, shut up.

can somebody ban this retard already ?  can't even muster a coherent thought ffs .

get off my thread you pos .

Figo was the star of the Champions League, only let down by his teammates. I don't even know why I have to explain this. After the quarter-final he was being billed as one of the favourites for the Ballon d'Or, if not the favourite. Hopefully this link works, if not, here is the quote:

Si hoy se tuviera que elegir un Balón de Oro, Figo sería el candidato número uno. El martes volvióa ser decisivo, con un golazo, con su aportación constante y su capacidad de decisión. Por la izquierda desbordó con más facilidad y hoy por hoy es la piezaclave de este Barça. Lástima, la tarjeta

The first sentence says it all. It speaks volumes about how dominant Barça were in the Champions League at that point, utterly dominating the opposition with Figo as the orchestrator. Barça's attack were being billed just like BBC are nowadays. 'Bad Boys', they were called -- "the most fearsome attack in Europe". Figo was regarded as the best player of them all. This was after the quarter-final:

Spoiler:

Figo was regarded as the favourite in November. Not only because he was in outstanding form, but because it was speculated that the French trio [Zidane, Henry, Vieira] would have had their votes divided. Henry finished 4th with 57 points, but no other Frenchmen received any significant portion of votes. Zidane was clearly aided by the voting rules at the time.

Spoiler:

Figo's struggle in the Intercontinental Cup was highlighted, Zidane's poor form for Juventus was ignored. The entire argument was based on the European Championships. Farfan is right though; at the end of the day, the titles pointed to Zidane -- Figo didn't win any of the six [?] competitions he took part in. But still, he had support not just because of titles, but because of performance:

http://hemeroteca-paginas.mundodeportivo.com/EMD02/PUB/2000/12/15/EMD20001215008MDP.pdf

Johan Cruyff declaró ayer en Madrid que “Figo merece un poco más el Balón de Oro – que le entregará el próximo martes la revista France Football– que Zidane. Los dos son fenómenos del fútbol mundial, aunque creo que este año Figo ha dado más espectáculo. Su juego ha sido casi perfecto”.

Zidane won the WPOTY award with the lowest amount of votes ever. The French media spun it to suggest that Zidane was a victim of the media [hence him not winning the Ballon d'Or]. In Italy it was because Figo was excellent and because of Zidane's below-average performances, not to mention a certain headbutt.

http://archiviostorico.gazzetta.it/2000/dicembre/20/Pallone_Oro_Zidane_paga_testata_ga_0_0012209839.shtml

Ma i nostri 51 giurati hanno tenuto conto, come al solito, dell' insieme della stagione e di numerosi parametri e fra questi del fair play. Figo è stato votato per le sue qualità di giocatore che non rinuncia mai, che ha illuminato con le sue qualità il gioco della sua nazionale e dei club con i quali ha giocato durante l' anno e per il suo comportamento in campo e fuori. Zidane è stato penalizzato sia per le brutte prestazioni della Juventus sia per il suo comportamento personale.

Figo wasn't even nominated by the Italian and Spanish delegations as one of the top five players that year.   Maybe it wasn't a scandal after all. I mean, it's the national team coaches who vote for World Player of the Year. It's no surprise that the best player of the international tournament won the award, then. Just looking at the prior awards, it fits that theme well [unless you don't come from a first-tier nation].

Robespierre explains my logic for 1998 well. Zidane was not the best player on Juventus in 1998, nor was he the best player on France. He wasn't even voted as one of the top five players in the league in 1998. Ronaldo was robbed in 1998. Robbed in 1996 too.

Just important things to note:

farfan wrote:Mendieta won the UEFA midfilder of the year by a landslide that year . he literally  guided valencia to the final , including a thrashing of figo's barcelona where mendieta scored two goals and assisted two  more and figo didn't do shit  .

Redondo won the UEFA Best Player of the Champions League. Redondo was the best midfielder of the Champions League, there is no question. Absolutely no doubt. Figo was absent in the first leg of the semi-final due to suspension, Barça were hopeless without him. Funnily enough, the most scandalous referee decision of that Champions League essentially sealed the tie for Valencia.

farfan wrote:he [Raúl] was the top scorer in la liga for madrid and the CL's top scorer. he pretty much scored every single decisive goal on route to winning the title .
you can claim it was redondo , but the over the course of the ENTIRE season  raul was the more consistent  and decisive player for madrid .
but people with selective memory like to remember what they want . they think that redondo assist to raul against manchester united was the story of the whole season

Doc wrote:2000 was definitely Raul Madrid in the UCL. Don't mind our league form was absolutely awful that year.

I disagree. In my opinion [also the opinion of contemporary sources at the time], Redondo was the most outstanding Real Madrid player in the Champions League. I'm not referring to La Liga at all, where Figo was the best player. The people [like farfan] who only look at Redondo's backheel as a measure of his excellence miss the most of him when he was at his best. Just going from the knockout round forwards [click on the match to see the ratings from the press]:

Real Madrid 0-0 Manchester United
Manchester United 2-3 Real Madrid
Real Madrid 2-0 Bayern München
Bayern München 2-1 Real Madrid
Real Madrid 3-0 València

After the final he was looked at as a God. I think Di Stéfano gave him the highest praise after the final:

http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/sevilla/abc.sevilla/2000/05/23/104.html

sportsczy wrote:undeniable truth that Zidane could never be considered the 5th best player in Serie A in 1997-1998 Laughing  But you keep telling yourself that you proved something  

April 28, 1998


I guess the top 50 experts of Italian football aren't good enough for you. What a shame.

Pippo wrote:Just important things to note:

farfan wrote:Mendieta won the UEFA midfilder of the year by a landslide that year . he literally  guided valencia to the final , including a thrashing of figo's barcelona where mendieta scored two goals and assisted two  more and figo didn't do shit  .

Redondo won the UEFA Best Player of the Champions League. Redondo was the best midfielder of the Champions League, there is no question. Absolutely no doubt. Figo was absent in the first leg of the semi-final due to suspension, Barça were hopeless without him. Funnily enough, the most scandalous referee decision of that Champions League essentially sealed the tie for Valencia.

farfan wrote:he [Raúl] was the top scorer in la liga for madrid and the CL's top scorer. he pretty much scored every single decisive goal on route to winning the title .
you can claim it was redondo , but the over the course of the ENTIRE season  raul was the more consistent  and decisive player for madrid .
but people with selective memory like to remember what they want . they think that redondo assist to raul against manchester united was the story of the whole season

Doc wrote:2000 was definitely Raul Madrid in the UCL. Don't mind our league form was absolutely awful that year.

I disagree. In my opinion [also the opinion of contemporary sources at the time], Redondo was the most outstanding Real Madrid player in the Champions League. I'm not referring to La Liga at all, where Figo was the best player. The people [like farfan] who only look at Redondo's backheel as a measure of his excellence miss the most of him when he was at his best. Just going from the knockout round forwards [click on the match to see the ratings from the press]:

Real Madrid 0-0 Manchester United
Manchester United 2-3 Real Madrid
Real Madrid 2-0 Bayern München
Bayern München 2-1 Real Madrid
Real Madrid 3-0 València

After the final he was looked at as a God. I think Di Stéfano gave him the highest praise after the final:

http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/sevilla/abc.sevilla/2000/05/23/104.html

sportsczy wrote:undeniable truth that Zidane could never be considered the 5th best player in Serie A in 1997-1998 Laughing  But you keep telling yourself that you proved something  

April 28, 1998


I guess the top 50 experts of Italian football aren't good enough for you. What a shame.

redondo was amazing but i always felt raul was more consistent in the champions league that year, mcmanaman too, that was his first year at madrid and dude was amazing. redondo however opened people's eyes (journalists and fans who watched him at madrid week in week out knew his value) when he had that performance at old trafford especially that pass to raul, and he bossed the pitch against valencia in the final....but i dunno i'd still give the edge to raul as our best player that year....raul or redondo either one i guess, then carlos and macca (thats for the ucl though, the team , especially cough er le sulk anelka cough sucked bad in domestic football that year )