Re: Rest of the Football World Thread

by The Franchise Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:46 pm

About Gotze, I have a bad feeling he is going the Podolski/Quaresma route.

Meaning, he has the talent for a top side but something mentally isnt correct and you wont see his best unless he is running the show at a smaller side.

Gotze could and should have a better career than that, but remember when Quaresma was young Barcelona paid an astronomical amount for him because his talent was so great and for whatever reason he never got the chances and I think it broke him. And we saw at Bayern what Podolski did...he wasnt bad, not like Quaresma at some clubs (though he also did better than people remember too) but very much below what his talent suggested.

It may sound far fetched now, but Quaresma was thought of just as highly at Gotze at some point and it was for good reason.

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:14 pm

Milito is now the coach of Estudiantes. Pep disciple in the dressing room, very interested in the tactics, gave motivational speeches to the team. Expect him at Barça in the next 10 years.

by Hapless_Hans Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:33 am

The Franchise wrote:About Gotze, I have a bad feeling he is going the Podolski/Quaresma route.

Meaning, he has the talent for a top side but something mentally isnt correct and you wont see his best unless he is running the show at a smaller side.

Gotze could and should have a better career than that, but remember when Quaresma was young Barcelona paid an astronomical amount for him because his talent was so great and for whatever reason he never got the chances and I think it broke him. And we saw at Bayern what Podolski did...he wasnt bad, not like Quaresma at some clubs (though he also did better than people remember too) but very much below what his talent suggested.

It may sound far fetched now, but Quaresma was thought of just as highly at Gotze at some point and it was for good reason.

can't talk about Quaresma, and don't want to right now Laughing

but the thing with Podolski is, he was never that talented, he was just a great finisher. Also he's a bit stupid. Which definitely cannot be said of Götze.

I don't see any similarities there tbh.

by Muppet Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:10 am

Hapless_Hans wrote:
The Franchise wrote:About Gotze, I have a bad feeling he is going the Podolski/Quaresma route.

Meaning, he has the talent for a top side but something mentally isnt correct and you wont see his best unless he is running the show at a smaller side.

Gotze could and should have a better career than that, but remember when Quaresma was young Barcelona paid an astronomical amount for him because his talent was so great and for whatever reason he never got the chances and I think it broke him. And we saw at Bayern what Podolski did...he wasnt bad, not like Quaresma at some clubs (though he also did better than people remember too) but very much below what his talent suggested.

It may sound far fetched now, but Quaresma was thought of just as highly at Gotze at some point and it was for good reason.

can't talk about Quaresma, and don't want to right now

but the thing with Podolski is, he was never that talented, he was just a great finisher. Also he's a bit stupid. Which definitely cannot be said of Götze.

I don't see any similarities there tbh.

Quaresma bought into his own hype early days. Could never wrap his head around team play. It's the former more than the latter with Gotze but he's definitely struggling to keep it simple at times. Basically he thinks he's already arrived but he still has it all to prove.

by billy_gr Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:47 am

I understand that they were half a team down. I also understand that it's not a fair comparison. All I'm asking to you Daniel and to the guy that's editing his replies is what have they done so far with their best 11 that scared you so much? Granted that man shirt and Wolfsburg have already beaten them convincingly. Adding peps abysmal away record I would not be surprised if Porto could beat them with robery playing

by alexjanosik Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:14 am

Hapless_Hans wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:
I agree on Lewa.I think he is an excellent striker.What I meant was in a possession based setup,without Robbery around,he cant be expected to make something out of nothing.Especially with Goetze and Muller around him.Which is basically what you said.
On Goetze,I just dont think he has the mentality to play for a top club.He is just far too passive.He is never going to be a top player with such a passive mentality.The top players always want to do something.He goes hiding.I agree it would be better to cut your losses but the question is would the Bayern bosses?
So what are the plans for upgrading the attack?Any rumors? And who would you personally prefer?
IMO if he is available,someone like Hazard would be the ideal choice.Exceptional talent and under Guardiola,he would become a top top player.Very similar player to Ribery too so you would have a natural heir.
I know the Bayern bosses are keen on Reus but again I would be extremely wary of him.I really dont think he is elite and may not shine in a possession based system.He gets a lot of space counter attacking for Dortmund but may find it hard playing against set defences.Any other targets or someone you like?

On the midfield,I do think you need reinforcements. Schweini is 30 and injury prone.Martinez is injury prone.Thiago is injury prone.All 3 of your main midfielders are injury prone.If they can stay fit,then I agree you wont need reinforcements. But they are so it is good to look at options.
Watching Thiago still makes me sad.Saw glimpses of his ability against Porto.The effortless ability to drift past years,the vision and movement to seek and dominate the ball.He is a Xaviesta level talent.He has Xavi's ability to dominate and control a game and Iniesta's ability to ghost past players.If he stays injury free,he will be the best midfielder on the planet and no one will come close.Hope Bayern can cure him of his injuries.Robben finally got over bis injury woes at Bayern so maybe Thiago can too.
Rode is a curious case.I am beginning to see why Pep likes him.He has started to impress me.I think he is a good young player.Plus there are the likes of Gaudino and Hoijberg.Still think one elite midfielder is needed considering your main midfielders are so injury prone.

Agree.

As for who might be added, who are candidates etc., I have no idea.

I don't know have any knowledge about the names that are being hyped, as I a) don't watch so much games between midtable Serie A teams etc b) don't play FIFA or Football manager or whatever, where many of our posters seem to be drawing detailed pseudo-knowledge from c) don't really feel like drawing conclusions from looking at stats without having seen the football and d) I'm not that knowledgable about good players anyway.

So I'll just trust in our transfer department, Sammer, Pep, and Reschke.

Hazard obviously would be a fitting Ribéry replacement, which I of course would welcome very much, but I guess he's unattainable now. Signed a new contract, gets probably 30% more wages than our top earners already, and with the incoming inflation with the PL money would cost silly money, 100m+, if he'd even consider joining us.
He'll go to Real in a couple of years, only possible destination.

Not to forget our transfer policy usually has a domestic bias, so I'd say Firmino and De Bruyne are likely names (though De Bruyne surely not this summer). Calhanoglu is one with a good chance to end up playing for us too.

But as I said, I'm at a loss, but then I'm not a professional scout lol.

Have you any ideas who you'd think might be a worthwile target?

Thiago, obviously is just a pure joy. Don't know if I've ever seen such a talented player at our club. It's absolutely crazy.

A joy which I can't let myself indulge in yet because of the injury proneness. Don't want to get my hopes up too much.
He's far from a consistent, mature top player yet.
He needs DEVELOPMENT, which he can only get by playing, and only then we can see if he can use his outrageously exceptional talent to become the outrageously exceptional player one can imagine watching him.

Götze, the slight mystery is that he did show that kind of impact and performance at Dortmund at times. Which now means either it wasn't all that to begin with, or it's the difference between playing for BVB and Bayern, or tactical/coaching issues with Pep, or stalled development. etc.

But what's clear is that this is not enough.

Is money really a concern for Bayern?Doubt any club in the world has the financial muscle that Bayern has.Backed by 2 of the richest corporations on the planet.If they want to,they can easily spend 100-150 mil.
Hazard is the only young player(besides the ones at Madrid and Bayern),who has Robbery potential.Why not try? He might be enticed by the prospected of playing under Pep.I dont think he particularly enjoys playing PTB under Mourinho.
I like De Bruyne and think he is very good player.You can definitely try going for him.I havent seen a lot of Firminho so cant comment.
It is clear though that the team needs investment in attack.

by Hapless_Hans Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:21 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
Is money really a concern for Bayern?Doubt any club in the world has the financial muscle that Bayern has.Backed by 2 of the richest corporations on the planet.If they want to,they can easily spend 100-150 mil.
Hazard is the only young player(besides the ones at Madrid and Bayern),who has Robbery potential.Why not try? He might be enticed by the prospected of playing under Pep.I dont think he particularly enjoys playing PTB under Mourinho.
I like De Bruyne and think he is very good player.You can definitely try going for him.I havent seen a lot of Firminho so cant comment.
It is clear though that the team needs investment in attack.

We would have the money for such transfer no doubt, that's not the point.
I'm just not sure whether such a mega transfer would be wise, as a precedent both for fees and for the wage bill, and whether I want my club to be doing such transfers.
And I think our board feels similarly.

by The Franchise Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:54 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
The Franchise wrote:About Gotze, I have a bad feeling he is going the Podolski/Quaresma route.

Meaning, he has the talent for a top side but something mentally isnt correct and you wont see his best unless he is running the show at a smaller side.

Gotze could and should have a better career than that, but remember when Quaresma was young Barcelona paid an astronomical amount for him because his talent was so great and for whatever reason he never got the chances and I think it broke him. And we saw at Bayern what Podolski did...he wasnt bad, not like Quaresma at some clubs (though he also did better than people remember too) but very much below what his talent suggested.

It may sound far fetched now, but Quaresma was thought of just as highly at Gotze at some point and it was for good reason.

can't talk about Quaresma, and don't want to right now

but the thing with Podolski is, he was never that talented, he was just a great finisher. Also he's a bit stupid. Which definitely cannot be said of Götze.

I don't see any similarities there tbh.

Podo always had/has very good speed and all the tools needed to be dangerous in the 1 v 1. His talent alone was worthy of Bayern, that is what I am getting at. Just like Quaresma had talent worthy of Barca and Gotze now has the talent to play for Bayern.

by The Franchise Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:03 pm

billy_gr wrote:I understand that they were half a team down. I also understand that it's not a fair comparison. All I'm asking to you Daniel and to the guy that's editing his replies is what have they done so far with their best 11 that scared you so much? Granted that man shirt and Wolfsburg have already beaten them convincingly. Adding peps abysmal away record I would not be surprised if Porto could beat them with robery playing

I never go by "what have they done". It is the same logic which was used not to sign Neymar, the same logic which allowed Thiago Silva, Miranda and many other Brazilian defenders to go smaller clubs for peanuts relative to what they proved to be.

What scares me so much? Scared is the wrong word, I was never scared and Barcelona should never be if they have players like they have but they are still by a distance the team I wish to avoid the most because they have 3 things which others do not.

1. Comparable talent to us, superior talent in every area but the forward line in fact.

2. A style of play to make us suffer, badly. Choose a style to beat Barca (and make us look bad while at it) and it would probably be Bayern.

3. A coach of the highest order.

No other team in my opinion have all these 3 in comparison to us.

Porto beat Bayern with all their players? Maybe, its football and anything can happen but I severely doubt it.

Pep away record? You really think that means anything? What Pep did with Barca has no relevance on Bayern or their players. They lost and could lose away from home to Porto and it has nothing to do with what Pep did at Barca.

by Hapless_Hans Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:03 pm

well fair enough.

I'd still maintain that Podolski never performed at a level like Götze performed for Dortmund.
Poldi's hype started because he ripped apart 2nd Bundesliga as a youngster, becoming top goalscorer, and then reliably played well in the NT.
After Köln got relegated one season later he already joined us.
At top club level, he never did anything of note.

Götze performed for Dortmund in their double season and CL final run.

For me, the current equivalent to Podolski is Schürrle.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:07 pm

I'd like to add that a lot of people were saying "What have Barca done?" prior to the 2009 CL final and look at what happened after that... Past results don't determine future ones, Bayern have been underperforming (only if judged by the highest standards) but they have everything to become the best team in the world (if they're not already).

by The Franchise Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:11 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:well fair enough.

I'd still maintain that Podolski never performed at a level like Götze performed for Dortmund.
Poldi's hype started because he ripped apart 2nd Bundesliga as a youngster, becoming top goalscorer, and then reliably played well in the NT.
After Köln got relegated one season later he already joined us.
At top club level, he never did anything of note.

Götze performed for Dortmund in their double season and CL final run.

For me, the current equivalent to Podolski is Schürrle.

Performance? I would say his very early German NT performances were quite comparable. It obviously is over a shorter period of time (competitions, let alone friendlies are obviously shorter in length than full club seasons) but none the less the type of ability he showed in those games were pretty good.

But anyway if you disagree thats fine, I was talking talent more than performance. Bayern surely didnt buy him for his performances primarily.

I dont know if Podo was as talented as Gotze, so dont get me wrong, but the point I was trying to make was he had a level of talent he put on display which for some reason he never harnessed on a full time basis at a top club, but at a smaller club where he was more important you saw it more. Quaresma was the same on a different scale (Porto obviously being bigger than Koln) and I wouldnt be surprised to see Gotze go this way either.

by Hapless_Hans Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:21 pm

Yes I get your point and I agree, I just wanted to nitpick about your choice of Podolski as example Laughing

by Hapless_Hans Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:27 pm

As for the Porto thing, and "what have Bayern done" etc pp.

The injuries are very bad and have a huge impact no doubt.

A different thing is that we had a lot of injuries all season, not quite as extreme as right now but similarly, yet we played much much better even with our 'B' players on the field.

Just like last season, it's simply undeniable our whole team play and team form, the quality, speed, accuracy, confidence of our play, has degraded terribly since the beginning of the new year.

In the state we were in when we smashed Roma, we would not be embarrassed away by Porto like that, period.
No matter who's missing.
We'd not win 7:1 probably, or maybe draw or whatever as Robben and Alaba missing is a unambiguous loss of overall quality.
But the annoying thing is just how POOR we play at this point (and did last April too), and this is a problem that concerns Pep's performance as manager tbh.

by windkick Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:11 pm

btw, both Bale and Modric are out for about 3-6 weeks each. While Bale has been shit, his speed does trouble allot of the La Liga sides even when he isn't getting on the score sheet. And Modric is an engine in midfield they need. I hope this gives Atleti the confidence they need to at least rustle up a draw against them on Wednesday. Also hope this leads to them dropping points in la Liga, as we could use the help.

by The Franchise Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:34 pm

I agree with that btw re Bayern.

I see two seperate issues which cant be confused, though its easy to.

There is the legit excuse that Bayern are weaker because of injuries, thats legitimate and frankly unquestionable.

But the 2nd thing is, even with injuries they should be doing better. The team at the start of the season wouldnt lose 1-3 to Porto away, regardless.

by billy_gr Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:59 pm

Guys we 're going over the top here. Daniel provided some nice arguments and I understand where he's coming from but, Alfred, best team of the world? That's a bit too much. At least I'm not convinced. Maybe they will progress and they have to face Madrid again. I d love to swallow my words if they take revenge on them. Maybe Porto shock them in Munich too. I'll post again after the next game.

by Hapless_Hans Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:15 pm

well at the moment we're nowhere near the best team of the world, that much is for sure Laughing

Neither in terms of personell nor the way we play.

By the looks of it, we're not even top 8 in our current state Laughing

by CBarca Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:38 am

To me it's very interesting as the Barcelona drop in February and then surge in the late season under Pep is very well documented, especially simply through the experience of us Barca fans.

Not sure why he hasn't been able to do the same for this Bayern team. Especially considering the personnel is good enough, and the way he's had them playing at, say, the beginning of the season.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:16 am

"late season" is now, and there's no surge.

I don't think this has to do with a controlled trajectory, I don't know what it is but it is truly worrying.

by alexjanosik Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:06 am

I think you are being a tad unreasonable hans.I think Pep is a victim of his own impossibly high standards.
Everyone expects him to win the treble every season.That is just impossible.There is a reason no one has ever won the CL back to back.It is because it is practically impossible.Our great team couldnt do it,the great Milan team couldnt do it,Madrid couldnt and neither could your great side.
There are variety of reasons for it.Motivation and hunger is very important to winning it.After winning 2,we just didnt have that hunger anymore.Were we that much worse than Bayern that we lost 7-0.Among other things,the main problem was that we had no desire left while Bayern had that eye of the tiger look.They were far more hungry and destroyed us.
The moment Bayern won the treble a bit of that hunger was gone.When you played Madrid last season,you just didnt have that hunger whereas Madrid were desperate.I think even some of your players like Muller have mentioned this.It also doesnt help that Germany won the WC and some of the German players may feel that they have accomplished all there is to achieve.It is incredibly difficult to motivate a group of players who have won it all.The likes of Ferguson and Cruyff have said the same which is also why they talked of teams having a cycle and the need to recycle teams.
All that being the case,even for a coach of Pep's caliber, a domestic double and the CL semis is the most any reasonable fan can expect.Pep achieved that last season and is on course to do so again.
He has a severely depleted squad right now.Have the performances deteriorated second half of the season?Yes,but imo injuries have played a huge part.Also it is a hunch,but perhaps he is finding the long winter break in Germany troublesome.At Barca,there was no winter break.Maybe the long winter break is hindering the continuity in the performances.It is just a hunch.
I did think you played well against Hoffenheim at the weekend considering all the circumstances.Dante was once more a calamity.He is just not good enough and needs to be shown the door in the summer.Rode had another impressive performance.I think he should start against Porto.The midfield should be Guadino,Rode and Thiago.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:31 am

Alex, don't get me wrong.

I'm absolutely not among those who ridiculously expect, or 'demand', a CL win for us.
In fact I get very angry when stupid commentators, and fans, set the bar for us and Pep like this, where in fact everyone can only lose.
But we should be competing, and we're not. We weren't either last season, we were poor already against a terrible Man Utd (even Arsenal). Real, everyone could see that. This season, we were poor against Shakhtjar already. We were absolutely terrible against Porto.

I completely agree with all of your points about 'hunger'.
The most important thing is intensity. It's the reason why in football teams from lower leagues can cause upsets in cups etc.

In our treble season we had something to prove.
After that, we didn't, also the whole perception changes, opponents adapt etc.
I mean even Mourinho's Real in 2012 didn't park the bus like Ancelotti's Real did. Why? Because later they perceived us as favourites (and of course recognized Pep's way of trying to dominate games).

That's also why this 'best team in the world' story annoys me. The moment we think we are the best team chances are we'll be found out to not be all that.
I won't even start with what Breitner said before last years semi, it summed up how fatal such a perception can be.

All this also doesn't mean that I'm on Pep's case because of achievements. Achievements are secondary to the quality of our play.
I absolutely love having him as manager, the job he's doing in the league is absolutely brilliant and it's interesting, fun to watch, the players and fans love him. And as a RESULT of these things, it's crazily successful.

But.

You can't deny, like last season, we deteriorate in crunch time.
It's hard to isolate issues, as injuries, circumstances play into it.

But as I said, our teamplay deteriorates. The quality of our football deteriorates.
We are slow, we are timid. We are imprecise. That has consequences, as it means we get neither into the mindset nor the positions to get our counterpress going, which is such an integral part of our game.

When it did last season, I firmly believed it was mainly down to the drop in hunger.

It's happening again, and this explanation doesn't entirely convince me anymore.
Something else is going on with the way Pep prepares, sets up the team.

Maybe his high intensity, demanding multiple plans/formations style, (nothing more ridiculous than to claim he's 'got no plan B'), is wearing the players' mental capacities down as the season goes on?

As I said, I don't know.

But you watch us. You know we did play more precise and assured, and most of all intense, in fall.
It's just very frustrating if the curve goes down over a season, instead of up.

As Dani said, even with the injuries, we should be doing better, I might add, because we have been doing so much better earlier this season, even with lots of injuries.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:47 am

To make it clear again, with "doing better" I don't mean we should win the CL or something.
I mean we should not be timid, slow, technically unsound against a Porto side which frankly, in spite of their good quality, didn't exactly play out of this world.

We gifted them the goals, they didn't create them.

OK, shit happens, then we pull back to 1:2 at HT, at which point they weren't better.

Why then such a poor and uninspired second half? It's not acceptable.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:03 am

Overlooked the part about the winter break in your post.

Yes, I've got a similar hunch.

by The Franchise Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:10 pm

Yes, I agree also. When I said doing better, I just meant performance and result quite secondary.

I mean, they are linked...a better performing Bayern wouldnt lose to Porto like they did and they wouldnt play like they did either.

But we also have to remember goals change games, especially in the big matches.

What Alonso and Dante did were awful, you dont expect that from players of that level. I dont rate current Dante and I have not rated Alonso in about 5 years so its not that big a surprise but still, what they did was ghastly errors and they changed the entire attitude of both teams. It created tension in Bayern and inspired Porto, which lead to that performance and that result.

by alexjanosik Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:21 pm

Maybe Pep's overall fitness and training regime is more suited to a season without a winter break.
Maybe his training regime is not optimal for a season with such a long winter break.Hence the sub optimal performances in the second half of the season.
I am no expert on training and physiology and am completely clueless.Maybe someone more knowledgeable like dani or free could explain if it could be a factor.

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