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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:22 pm

I have to slightly agree with you. I believe he was a special player at Dortmund and he did show some glimpse of brilliance, however perhaps that was due to him being one of the top 3 players there. As far as it goes for his performance with Bayern and Germany I haven't been blown away by it and he gets upstaged by better players on those squads.

Perhaps hans can shed better light, I'm sure injuries, new team, style of play etc maybe factors. He's only 22, so still can reach that level.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:23 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Partly forced by injuries
This is key.
We've had so many diverse and long injuries this season predominantly in midfield (from Ribery and Robben missing the season start, to Martinez and Thiago being out all the time, Schweini only returning end of November, by which time Lahm  and Alaba were injured for months) it's impossible to speak of a preferred 11 independently from that.

And then let's not forget, no Kroos, who was in large parts responsible for the rhythm and circulation last season, whether that was a good thing or not.

So it's self-evident the way we're set up, and our midfield play, was both impacted and forged in these circumstances.

alexjanosik wrote:...he is now playing a midfield of Schweini and Alaba with Rode slightly upfront.


So this was in the last game, after both Ribery and Robben were unavailable due to injuries picked up in the Donezk game.

I think it's maybe the second or third time Rode started in midfield all season, and he started as right back twice.

Alaba started the game as Left CB and moved into midfield switching around with Bernat as he so often does.

So it's not like Schweini-Alaba-Rode is Pep's prefered midfield nowadays.

alexjanosik wrote:Having watched them all of last season and this,it is painfully obvious why he wanted Thiago.Bayern's other midfielders are just not very creative or elite passers.They are also not very good under pressure.They are good but not Xavi or Iniesta who can pick precision passes even under extreme pressure.Bayern's midfielders tend to lose the ball when pressured.They also dont have the final ball in them.Pep wanted Thiago to make him the Xavi of Bayern but injuries have spoilt his plans.It is a shame as Thiago truly has Xaviesta potential.

Thankfully, not being a Barca fan, for me it's not necessary to compare all players unfavorably to Xavi, Messi and Iniesta.

By that I mean, I obviously agree that our team do not possess their uniquely superior technical, creative and combinative skills.
But for me this is normal, not a fundamental lack.

That's why I don't think our midfielders (who I don't think can be talked about that homogenously) are not good under pressure or lose the ball all the time.

They don't, they're just fine under pressure, however I agree that they cannot CREATE under pressure like your three wizards can.

And that's what Pep knows too, so we are using different ways.
A lot of sharp vertical passes, long diagonal balls etc.

Or, as he did against Shakhtar and also in a couple of games in the first half season, play Ribery and Robben as left and right sided midfielders in almost a diamond, with Götze in front.

I liked that formation a lot.

Because apart from Ribery and Robben, none of our midfielders can dribble. And even those two have relatively narrow routines and will need to switch to the flanks for their things regularly.

That's of course where Thiago did, and hopefully will again, come in, and that is also my biggest dissapointment with Götze.

His dribbling has been awful. Apart from that I don't feel he's been terribly underwhelming, also because I'm not his biggest fan anyway (I certainly wasn't expecting him to win the Ballon D'or with 22 and I don't think it's reasonable expectations for any young player). I think he's been doing better this season, while I agree he seems inexistent too often he does some good work for the team.
So that's ok, while he definitively needs to improve vastly to become anything like a key player.
I honestly wasn't sure why we'd need him when we got him, and those who suggest he would've done better had Jupp stayed are wrong.
Had Jupp stayed, with his consistent 4-2-3-1, there would have been all kinds of clashes too, where to fit Kroos, Müller, Ribery, Robben AND Götze?

All in all, this year I think Pep has custom-tailored a variety of formations to fit the players available, to great success if you ask me. For me it's a joy too watch, even if it's a bit too messy sometimes.

One thing I'd liked to have seen given all the injuries is more Gaudino.

Can I ask, how would you describe the difference from last season to this season in the way we play, Alex? If you see one?
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Post by alexjanosik Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:25 pm

Thing is he was being talked about as the greatest German talent ever.There are various quotes from the likes of the kaiser and others to that effect.Right now he isnt even looking like a top 5 German talent of this generation,never mind all time.

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Post by alexjanosik Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:28 pm

Sorry hans,didnt mean any disrespect to Bayern.Please dont misinterpret.I was just commenting on why Pep may have wanted Thiago to implement his Barca blueprint.The bayern midfielders are outstanding in their own right.
I will answer in detail after I read your post.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:35 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Thing is he was being talked about as the greatest German talent ever.There are various quotes from the likes of the kaiser and others to that effect.Right now he isnt even looking like a top 5 German talent of this generation,never mind all time.


to be fair, quotes of the Kaiser are not exactly a quality stamp these days.
Franz is a senile babbling pundit now, god bless him.
He's earned the right to not be taken seriously anymore.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:38 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Sorry hans,didnt mean any disrespect to Bayern.Please dont misinterpret.I was just commenting on why Pep may have wanted Thiago to implement his Barca blueprint.The bayern midfielders are outstanding in their own right.
I will answer in detail after I read your post.


I didn't take it as disrespect, all good. No doubt Thiago potentially offers qualities none of our player have so I agree, but what I thought interesting is how Pep has dealt with Thiago (and Lahm!!) not being available.
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Post by alexjanosik Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:12 pm

Interesting that you talk about the Shakhtar game hans and the other game in which Robben and Ribery played midfield.I found that extremely interesting.He does have crazy ideas sometimes but never did I think he would employ 2 out and out wingers in midfield.But to the man's credit,I thought they played very well.Injuries may have forced his hand but it did work well.
Differences from last season.Hard to tell.I think I will have to watch some games from last season but I have noticed a few subtle differences.
The first one is quite obvious.He has given up on the false 9.Last season,,he did try to play it.This season,as far as I have watched,he has stuck with Lewa up top,who largely stays up top and doesnt drop.
Secondly,the Alaba-Bernat partnership down the left.
As you mentioned,often times I cant make out who is playing defense and who in midfield.I think it has confused opponents too.The 2 LB's themselves are quite different.Bernat is more an overlapper while Alaba likes to underlap.That in itself is a very good option.
The different formations he has tried out,his version of the 4-4-2 this season with Muller alongside Lewa.
On the other wing,I feel he has asked Rafinha to play slightly more conservatively this season compared to last.It is just a feeling but I could be worng.What do you think?
Overall,I see a lot more variety in Pep's play this season compared to last,no doubt partly enforced by injuries.
I am dead tired and thats all I can think of now.Will edit the post when I think of something else.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:45 pm

Please keep it coming. Thumbs up
It's great to hear an informed opinion about Bayern, for all the interesting stuff Pep is doing there's not much discussion about it on GL.
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Post by alexjanosik Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:38 pm

Whats everyones opinion on Harry Kane?
Dont watch Tottenham much so would like to know more about him.Is he the real deal or is he just a flash in the pan who is having the mother of all purple patches?
I watched a couple of games recently but it is difficult to form an opinion on such a small sample size.
What I saw was a technically decent enough player but not outstandingly gifted.He seems to me a bit like Thomas Muller.
Someone who is not supremely gifted but has outstanding footballing IQ and brilliant movement.Muller is one of my favorite players and if he is like Muller,then I would want to watch Kane more.
Would like to hear CB's opinion as he follows Tottenham closely.

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Post by alexjanosik Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:24 am

I had mentioned that Bayern's midfield play was far from impressive and the last few games have proved that.Unconvincing against Leverkusen in the Cup and again unconvincing against Porto.
As mentioned,they just have the midfielders who are comfortbale under pressure to play the kind of midfield oriented game Pep wants(especially when a team presses).
Alonso is pathetic under pressure and that was in ample evidence to see last night.
Only Thiago is super great under pressure and he is coming from a year long lay off.
And their forwards are mighty unconvincing with Robbery out.
Lewa is not elite and cant make something out of nothing.
Goetze had another game where I didnt notice him until he got substituted.Based on the last couple of seasons,he is just not good enough for Bayern especially when compared to Robbery.
Bayern seriously need to upgrade their forwards.Ribery is getting increasingly injury prone plus worng side of 30.Same with Robben.
Muller is one of my favorite players but he is not a superstar player.They need a superstar forward and then another very good one.

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Post by The Franchise Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:33 am

Dante and Alonso totally folding under pressing Laughing

They got so many injuries that this was the best time to play them and im sure they will come out with fire the next game...but Porto have put themselves in a great position.
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Post by billy_gr Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:30 pm

I’ll post it here. Remember when everyone wanted to avoid Bayern and I said they were never truly tested?
How right I was??? 
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Post by jibers Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:39 pm

The Franchise wrote:Dante and Alonso totally folding under pressing Laughing

They got so many injuries that this was the best time to play them and im sure they will come out with fire the next game...but Porto have put themselves in a great position.


Alonso is just so crap. Under pressure he is as bad if not worse than Carrick! Dante is another story. Boateng said he was never taught to defend, I believe him.

I hope Atleti see off Madrid and Monaco beat Juve. Imagine if Enrique won the treble! Laughing Proud
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Post by free_cat Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:07 pm

To be fair, Alonso was clearly fouled in the first goal, but he did very badly. Anyway, Bayern players were stupid and gave away all three goals.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:14 pm

alexjanosik wrote:I had mentioned that Bayern's midfield play was far from impressive and the last few games have proved that.Unconvincing against Leverkusen in the Cup and again unconvincing against Porto.
As mentioned,they just have the midfielders who are comfortbale under pressure to play the kind of midfield oriented game Pep wants(especially when a team presses).
Alonso is pathetic under pressure and that was in ample evidence to see last night.
Only Thiago is super great under pressure and he is coming from a year long lay off.
And their forwards are mighty unconvincing with Robbery out.
Lewa is not elite and cant make something out of nothing.
Goetze had another game where I didnt notice him until he got substituted.Based on the last couple of seasons,he is just not good enough for Bayern especially when compared to Robbery.
Bayern seriously need to upgrade their forwards.Ribery is getting increasingly injury prone plus worng side of 30.Same with Robben.
Muller is one of my favorite players but he is not a superstar player.They need a superstar forward and then another very good one.


Agree pretty much except with Lewandowski. Thinks he's doing very well, and if get the needed updates in the other attacking positions he'll be more than good enough for us.

Götze, yes, I'm done with him.
I wasn't on his case before since he's young and did alright at the beginning of the season, but now if you ask me we might as well sell him.
He offers exactly NOTHING in a game like yesterday. He doesn't control the ball, he never dribbles successfully, he creates nothing at all, his passes and layoffs are imprecise, he's sluggish and without any impact.
I don't know what the *bleep* he thinks he is doing, but this sure is not good enough.
And all that in a situation where Ribery and Robben are out, where one might think he'd feel the urgency to step it up.

Cost 35m, gets top wages, offers nothing. Bye bye.

Dante, as sad as it is, is done for us.
I won't slate him as I won't forget how good he was 12/13, but he's been degrading since Pep came in and apparently the 1:7 was the final blow.
That kind of insecurity is not tolerable anymore.
It's painful, but with Boateng, Badstuber and Benatia we have 3 better options [except right now of course lol].

Midfield I think is where it's mostly injuries. Lahm, Thiago not in form due to injuries, Martinez still out, Schweini injured all season. Rode a good squad player to have, like him and he's fine, but obviously if he's required to run our game in a CL quarter level game that's not going to work.
Withour kids I'm not sure we need major investment in central midfield.

We do need major investment in attack. 2 (wide) attacking player and a backup striker, and at least one of them needs to be an actual top player, not a prospect, backup, or talent.
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Post by Winter is Coming Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:29 pm

billy_gr wrote:I’ll post it here. Remember when everyone wanted to avoid Bayern and I said they were never truly tested?
How right I was??? 


Yes, considering they didn't have Robben, Ribery, Schewni, Martinez, Benatia, Alaba. Lets see how well we'd do with Messi, Neymar, Rakitic, Pique...

How right you are.
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Post by alexjanosik Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:43 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:I had mentioned that Bayern's midfield play was far from impressive and the last few games have proved that.Unconvincing against Leverkusen in the Cup and again unconvincing against Porto.
As mentioned,they just have the midfielders who are comfortbale under pressure to play the kind of midfield oriented game Pep wants(especially when a team presses).
Alonso is pathetic under pressure and that was in ample evidence to see last night.
Only Thiago is super great under pressure and he is coming from a year long lay off.
And their forwards are mighty unconvincing with Robbery out.
Lewa is not elite and cant make something out of nothing.
Goetze had another game where I didnt notice him until he got substituted.Based on the last couple of seasons,he is just not good enough for Bayern especially when compared to Robbery.
Bayern seriously need to upgrade their forwards.Ribery is getting increasingly injury prone plus worng side of 30.Same with Robben.
Muller is one of my favorite players but he is not a superstar player.They need a superstar forward and then another very good one.


Agree pretty much except with Lewandowski. Thinks he's doing very well, and if get the needed updates in the other attacking positions he'll be more than good enough for us.

Götze, yes, I'm done with him.
I wasn't on his case before since he's young and did alright at the beginning of the season, but now if you ask me we might as well sell him.
He offers exactly NOTHING in a game like yesterday. He doesn't control the ball, he never dribbles successfully, he creates nothing at all, his passes and layoffs are imprecise, he's sluggish and without any impact.
I don't know what the *bleep* he thinks he is doing, but this sure is not good enough.
And all that in a situation where Ribery and Robben are out, where one might think he'd feel the urgency to step it up.

Cost 35m, gets top wages, offers nothing. Bye bye.

Dante, as sad as it is, is done for us.
I won't slate him as I won't forget how good he was 12/13, but he's been degrading since Pep came in and apparently the 1:7 was the final blow.
That kind of insecurity is not tolerable anymore.
It's painful, but with Boateng, Badstuber and Benatia we have 3 better options [except right now of course lol].

Midfield I think is where it's mostly injuries. Lahm, Thiago not in form due to injuries, Martinez still out, Schweini injured all season. Rode a good squad player to have, like him and he's fine, but obviously if he's required to run our game in a CL quarter level game that's not going to work.
Withour kids I'm not sure we need major investment in central midfield.

We do need major investment in attack. 2 (wide) attacking player and a backup striker, and at least one of them needs to be an actual top player, not a prospect, backup, or talent.


I agree on Lewa.I think he is an excellent striker.What I meant was in a possession based setup,without Robbery around,he cant be expected to make something out of nothing.Especially with Goetze and Muller around him.Which is basically what you said.
On Goetze,I just dont think he has the mentality to play for a top club.He is just far too passive.He is never going to be a top player with such a passive mentality.The top players always want to do something.He goes hiding.I agree it would be better to cut your losses but the question is would the Bayern bosses?
So what are the plans for upgrading the attack?Any rumors? And who would you personally prefer?
IMO if he is available,someone like Hazard would be the ideal choice.Exceptional talent and under Guardiola,he would become a top top player.Very similar player to Ribery too so you would have a natural heir.
I know the Bayern bosses are keen on Reus but again I would be extremely wary of him.I really dont think he is elite and may not shine in a possession based system.He gets a lot of space counter attacking for Dortmund but may find it hard playing against set defences.Any other targets or someone you like?

On the midfield,I do think you need reinforcements. Schweini is 30 and injury prone.Martinez is injury prone.Thiago is injury prone.All 3 of your main midfielders are injury prone.If they can stay fit,then I agree you wont need reinforcements. But they are so it is good to look at options.
Watching Thiago still makes me sad.Saw glimpses of his ability against Porto.The effortless ability to drift past years,the vision and movement to seek and dominate the ball.He is a Xaviesta level talent.He has Xavi's ability to dominate and control a game and Iniesta's ability to ghost past players.If he stays injury free,he will be the best midfielder on the planet and no one will come close.Hope Bayern can cure him of his injuries.Robben finally got over bis injury woes at Bayern so maybe Thiago can too.
Rode is a curious case.I am beginning to see why Pep likes him.He has started to impress me.I think he is a good young player.Plus there are the likes of Gaudino and Hoijberg.Still think one elite midfielder is needed considering your main midfielders are so injury prone.

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Post by Winter is Coming Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:01 am

Things seem to be getting heated in Munich right now with Pep and the Bayern doctors. Don't know the full story, but it'll be out soon enough.
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Post by neuro11 Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:02 am

first time, since he left our team, i felt sorry for pep. it was humiliating, was clear from his face especially after the 3rd goal. but what could he do, all 3 goals were :facepalm:

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Post by LeBéninois Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:57 am

TBH I don't see Pep stay very long at Bayern. It has nothing to do with the game against Porto but I just feel he's in a similar position than Mou at Real. Too much drama going on off field and it's either you're with him(his tactics, choices etc ) or against him.
When I think that some people were saying that FCBayern was going to dominate Europe for the years to come as if it was that simple although I'm convinced that Pep is doing a better job than Jupp would have had, has he stayed.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:12 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
I agree on Lewa.I think he is an excellent striker.What I meant was in a possession based setup,without Robbery around,he cant be expected to make something out of nothing.Especially with Goetze and Muller around him.Which is basically what you said.
On Goetze,I just dont think he has the mentality to play for a top club.He is just far too passive.He is never going to be a top player with such a passive mentality.The top players always want to do something.He goes hiding.I agree it would be better to cut your losses but the question is would the Bayern bosses?
So what are the plans for upgrading the attack?Any rumors? And who would you personally prefer?
IMO if he is available,someone like Hazard would be the ideal choice.Exceptional talent and under Guardiola,he would become a top top player.Very similar player to Ribery too so you would have a natural heir.
I know the Bayern bosses are keen on Reus but again I would be extremely wary of him.I really dont think he is elite and may not shine in a possession based system.He gets a lot of space counter attacking for Dortmund but may find it hard playing against set defences.Any other targets or someone you like?

On the midfield,I do think you need reinforcements. Schweini is 30 and injury prone.Martinez is injury prone.Thiago is injury prone.All 3 of your main midfielders are injury prone.If they can stay fit,then I agree you wont need reinforcements. But they are so it is good to look at options.
Watching Thiago still makes me sad.Saw glimpses of his ability against Porto.The effortless ability to drift past years,the vision and movement to seek and dominate the ball.He is a Xaviesta level talent.He has Xavi's ability to dominate and control a game and Iniesta's ability to ghost past players.If he stays injury free,he will be the best midfielder on the planet and no one will come close.Hope Bayern can cure him of his injuries.Robben finally got over bis injury woes at Bayern so maybe Thiago can too.
Rode is a curious case.I am beginning to see why Pep likes him.He has started to impress me.I think he is a good young player.Plus there are the likes of Gaudino and Hoijberg.Still think one elite midfielder is needed considering your main midfielders are so injury prone.


Agree.

As for who might be added, who are candidates etc., I have no idea.

I don't know have any knowledge about the names that are being hyped, as I a) don't watch so much games between midtable Serie A teams etc b) don't play FIFA or Football manager or whatever, where many of our posters seem to be drawing detailed pseudo-knowledge from c) don't really feel like drawing conclusions from looking at stats without having seen the football and d) I'm not that knowledgable about good players anyway.

So I'll just trust in our transfer department, Sammer, Pep, and Reschke.

Hazard obviously would be a fitting Ribéry replacement, which I of course would welcome very much, but I guess he's unattainable now. Signed a new contract, gets probably 30% more wages than our top earners already, and with the incoming inflation with the PL money would cost silly money, 100m+, if he'd even consider joining us.
He'll go to Real in a couple of years, only possible destination.

Not to forget our transfer policy usually has a domestic bias, so I'd say Firmino and De Bruyne are likely names (though De Bruyne surely not this summer). Calhanoglu is one with a good chance to end up playing for us too.

But as I said, I'm at a loss, but then I'm not a professional scout lol.

Have you any ideas who you'd think might be a worthwile target?

Thiago, obviously is just a pure joy. Don't know if I've ever seen such a talented player at our club. It's absolutely crazy.

A joy which I can't let myself indulge in yet because of the injury proneness. Don't want to get my hopes up too much.
He's far from a consistent, mature top player yet.
He needs DEVELOPMENT, which he can only get by playing, and only then we can see if he can use his outrageously exceptional talent to become the outrageously exceptional player one can imagine watching him.

Götze, the slight mystery is that he did show that kind of impact and performance at Dortmund at times. Which now means either it wasn't all that to begin with, or it's the difference between playing for BVB and Bayern, or tactical/coaching issues with Pep, or stalled development. etc.

But what's clear is that this is not enough.
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Post by billy_gr Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:23 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:
billy_gr wrote:I’ll post it here. Remember when everyone wanted to avoid Bayern and I said they were never truly tested?
How right I was??? 
?4Yes, considering they didn't have Robben, Ribery, Schewni, Martinez, Benatia, Alaba. Lets see how well we'd do with Messi, Neymar, Rakitic, Pique...

How right you are.
Their convincing victory against which football giant made you shut your pants before kid[/quote]
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Post by The Franchise Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:32 pm

billy_gr wrote:I’ll post it here. Remember when everyone wanted to avoid Bayern and I said they were never truly tested?
How right I was??? 

I hate to be that guy, but not right at all. Did you not see how many players they had missing?

Granted, I didnt expect them to lose...but come on. That wasnt Bayern..Porto on the day had more talent on the pitch as far as im concerned.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:35 pm

billy_gr wrote:I’ll post it here. Remember when everyone wanted to avoid Bayern and I said they were never truly tested?
How right I was??? 

I hate to be that guy, but not right at all. Did you not see how many players they had missing?

Granted, I didnt expect them to lose...but come on. That wasnt Bayern..Porto on the day had more talent on the pitch as far as im concerned.
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Post by Winter is Coming Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:43 pm

.


Last edited by Winter is Coming on Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by The Franchise Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:46 pm

About Gotze, I have a bad feeling he is going the Podolski/Quaresma route.

Meaning, he has the talent for a top side but something mentally isnt correct and you wont see his best unless he is running the show at a smaller side.

Gotze could and should have a better career than that, but remember when Quaresma was young Barcelona paid an astronomical amount for him because his talent was so great and for whatever reason he never got the chances and I think it broke him. And we saw at Bayern what Podolski did...he wasnt bad, not like Quaresma at some clubs (though he also did better than people remember too) but very much below what his talent suggested.

It may sound far fetched now, but Quaresma was thought of just as highly at Gotze at some point and it was for good reason.
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