Barcelona - Athletic 21:00 CET

on the other hand, one defeat in 15 games, well... clearly you should fire your coach lol

jibers wrote:
lol

Do you ever post in the bayern section dude?

Not as long as my last post there from weeks ago is still the last post.

No point in talking to myself..

so if it's ok I'll continue to (s)troll into your grounds now and then

It's more than okay and you might want to frequent the bundesliga thread in the general section

BarrileteCosmico wrote:It's more than okay and you might want to frequent the bundesliga thread in the general section

Oh right!! Haven't even seen that one! probably because I always directlyload the 'clubs' page..

Sacking Martino is not overreacting in the slightest. The team has lost it's identity, been playing ugly hoofball all season long, scraped some lucky wins, won others due to the sheer quality of the players.

The coach however is clearly instructing a type of game that just doesn't suit the team's strengths. We don't have the height to win those deep crosses nor are particularily good in the transition game. As Pep once said we're a really bad team without the ball, so we should really try to be keeping it.

Who's fault is it when the defenders keep trying long range passes, bypassing our strongest players and everyone is making direct runs at the opposition regardless of poor dribbling skills? Under Pep and Tito the defenders were giving the ball to the excellent midfield who was patiently circulating it until somebody with actual dribbling skills (basically Messi or Iniesta) got free for a run.

We're not winning any second balls and even when we do (very rarely), instead of putting it into circulation to build up a new attack, whoever won it just runs up to a defender gung-ho and straight away loses it again. It's so frustrating to watch.

And those long diagonal balls... They could make some sense on the counter if we got a wide player free making a run I suppose. But right now, they're being done blindly, against organized defenses, aimed at marked players who are shorter than their marker. It boggles the mind.

As for "finished" Xavi, he doesn't seem that finished to me. I see him running just as much as he always was, still finding spaces. It's just that nobody passes the ball to him. It's ridiculous really. Just watch any game, focus on Xavi's movement in midfield. It's excellent. He's almost always unmarked, in open areas, ready to receive and supply. Does he receive? Hell no. Hoofball 60yards across.

FACT of the day:

Tito's Barca: 61 long balls per game.
Tata's Barca: 56 long balls per game.
Pep's last season: 54 long balls per game.

DEM 60 yard hoofballs under Tata.

a week and a half ago everyone was praising Tata for allowing the team to outscore Messi, be unpredictable, maintain rotation..
now one loss against Ath. Bilboa and everyone wants him sacked xD...

how people put the blame purely on him is odd, not remotely based on injuries, or bad plays from players, nope all on Tata.

futbol wrote:FACT of the day:

Tito's Barca: 61 long balls per game.
Tata's Barca: 56 long balls per game.
Pep's last season: 54 long balls per game.

DEM 60 yard hoofballs under Tata.

Long ball and long pass is not the same thing.

Cheap stat.

Honestly, I hope things change fast. These 2 loses in a row I hope serve as an eye opener to the entire management that things aren't working. I understand these are our first 2 loses of the season, but the signs are there that things are going downhill slowly. And things will get really ugly when we face the big dogs early next year when the UCL gets tough and season gets grueling

Cesc as a false 9 is just idiotic. It works vs the mid-lower table La Liga sides but thats about it. He works allot better as the guy behind the striker (Neymar or Messi when healthy).

Neymar's finishing has never been world class outside of Brazil. Allot of people got fooled by his performance in the Confeds, but he always got criticized before that when playing with Brazil. He is however great at opening up space and making plays. In other words, we need a true finisher to compliment Messi. With no Messi...who's the finisher? Villa is doing GREAT playing as a 9 with Atletico, maybe we should of just held on to him. He might of been boss in Tatas system. Too late to say that now though, it's time to move on.

Mascherano needs to get benched on his ass. I hope Tata isn't giving him playing time; helping his fellow Argentine out by show casing he can start for Barca leading into the World Cup. I know that's really retarded of me to even say, but seriously I don't get how this guy is still on our team. He had that one amazing season when we won the UCL, but since then he's been utter shit and he always makes me nervous that he's going to cost the team PK due to his rash decisions. Bartra has been superior to Mascherano and it's not even debatable. Time to get Bartra in there.

The team needs to go back to playing a possession game. This hoof ball crap isn't going to work. Especially considering our team is composed of midgets (vs a generally tall, strong Bilbao team). These next games will really tell us if Tata is about to start to adjust now that the pressure is mounting or if he's going to keep doing the same shit. If he keeps doing the same shit, then he needs to get sacked.

Franchise: Word it how you like. I can word it differently and more presicely if you like.

"Attempted passes of 25 yards or more" under Tito: 61
"Attempted passes of 25 yards or more" under Tata: 56
"Attempted passes of 25 yards or more" under Pep: 54

We aren't attempting more hoofball at all. This is just being criticized because he publicly said that "a long diagonal ball isn't bad" so some "experts" are concentrating on it now. Mascherano attempted 15 long balls today and 11 of those found their target. 89 % overall passing accuracy. What's the deal? No one is instructed to hoof it. Pinto tried to play it out of the back every time. He even dribbled a guy so he wouldn't hoof it.

No, that obviously doesnt work.

People who collect the stats are not trusted to seperate long balls and long passes.

Why resort to such bogus means to try and stick by a point?

Use your eyes. Are you seriously saying we played more long balls without clear, open targets under Pep?

You speak about Mascherano. Remind us again how the goal was conceded? What was Adriano doing?

This is a funny discussion right now because in the "why do goalkeepers hoof it" thread you are of the opinion that you can't train composure. Well. Adriano (and Alba) will never be as composed as King Cool Eric Abidal. That's why Adriano is doing what he does. Nothing to do with tactical instructions by Tata. The backline does panic more under pressure because the players have declined. Not by tactical design. They aren't attempting much more long balls than what Marquez used to do. They are attempting more clearances.

If Tata made any instructions to hoof it you wouldn't see Pinto's awkward passes "out of the back" resulting in throw-ins. Do you realize that Tata had only 12 full training sessions with this team so far?

Stejo wrote:Sacking Martino is not overreacting in the slightest. The team has lost it's identity, been playing ugly hoofball all season long, scraped some lucky wins, won others due to the sheer quality of the players.

The coach however is clearly instructing a type of game that just doesn't suit the team's strengths. We don't have the height to win those deep crosses nor are particularily good in the transition game. As Pep once said we're a really bad team without the ball, so we should really try to be keeping it.

Who's fault is it when the defenders keep trying long range passes, bypassing our strongest players and everyone is making direct runs at the opposition regardless of poor dribbling skills? Under Pep and Tito the defenders were giving the ball to the excellent midfield who was patiently circulating it until somebody with actual dribbling skills (basically Messi or Iniesta) got free for a run.

We're not winning any second balls and even when we do (very rarely), instead of putting it into circulation to build up a new attack, whoever won it just runs up to a defender gung-ho and straight away loses it again. It's so frustrating to watch.

And those long diagonal balls... They could make some sense on the counter if we got a wide player free making a run I suppose. But right now, they're being done blindly, against organized defenses, aimed at marked players who are shorter than their marker. It boggles the mind.

As for "finished" Xavi, he doesn't seem that finished to me. I see him running just as much as he always was, still finding spaces. It's just that nobody passes the ball to him. It's ridiculous really. Just watch any game, focus on Xavi's movement in midfield. It's excellent. He's almost always unmarked, in open areas, ready to receive and supply. Does he receive? Hell no. Hoofball 60yards across.

He's not the same player he was 2-3 years ago, but I agree with this. He's one of our hardest working players and keeps the ball well (when we play to our style). He made a few nice thru balls in this game and if it wasn't for our finishing he could've had 1-2 assists today. According to Barcelona website he's been involved in about 28 of our goals, he's recovered 57 balls, but however has lost 119 balls. He's not finished, but should be rested a lot more then he is now.

I don't really agree with the criticisms of the first half. It was neither bad nor boring. It was actually quite exciting at some points; I agree with Martino that all we lacked was a good final pass. We still struggled with their pressing, which was much better than ours. It was in the second half that the team struggled much more.

The Franchise wrote:

jibers wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Nah thats not true at all. Why wouldnt they be able to pass out of pressure? You dont need anything but a plan and composure, skill and technique for that...your telling me thats what we lack?

We couldnt pass out of pressure of Bayern and Madrid because we dont follow our philosphy at all. We didnt create midfield rotation, we didnt advance the fullbacks, we didnt form 3 at the back...stark different from before.

Also, in those games we didnt pressure back so we only won and therefore only retained the ball at the back, therefore not relieving any tension on the back 4.

Dani people have to accept that all that is over, that was Pep's tactics. Even the positional play has dissappeared, that ridiculous pressure was Peps as well, people saying Barcelona should play like before really need to get a grip, they never will because the coach in no longer there. Although I'm not sure what Tata is playing at.

Jibbers, like I said before, Pep's ideas or not, its irrelevant to weather they can be followed or not.

You think, some fodder coach like me can describe it and coach it (I do), coaches at that high level cannot? Of course they can. They just have their own way, which is fine, but unless it brings entertaining football and results, its not good enough.

is it me or you sound like MT here?

Clearly, it's not as simple as you make it sound. Plenty of people can understand it, yet implementing it on the field of pay is something else entirely isnt? otherwise everyone would do it, and coaches like Pep would have no value out there.

Like you said yourself, coaches have their own ways, and they stick with it. It's what they know, it's how they coach. Tata is coaching the way he knows how to, maybe without forcing too much of himself onto a philosophy that already exists so not to disturb it. So the question is, did you risk too much by taking someone outside of the philosophy you already had at the club.

I am no expert but there are some intrinsic differences between Bielsa school which Tata follows and what Pep did the past couple of years. and that's exactly what we are seeing, more long balls (amazing how many of those you play across field, reminded me of the way Bielsa played you the first time at san mames under the rain when he got to spain); the game is a lot more up and down, you look for the way forward each time, etc... looks more like you are transitioning to another style. Maybe it's even more telling that it's so apparent when you play big teams, games during which tata might be more insistent on his instructions, than when you play fodder teams where your natural way of playing expresses itself.

Those long ball stats are bull, doesnt prove anything.How are we gona know which one was a ''hoof to forward line'' or ''actual long ball'' ?

I thought Pique played well. Neymar's finishing is a surprise to me after watching him in CONFCUP. The game plan was shet, no point playing possession football if you are hoofing at the first sight of pressure and Barca cant even win second ball's.

Maybe it's debatable that we are not hoofing more than before under Tata. But what it's not debatable is that our posession game under pressure is much worse. It's like Tata doesn't know how to implement this game. I think this is because he doesn't believe in it 100% and the players are hence less convinced and don't perform all the needed stuff to have a good posession game (movement, confidence, etc).

I heard the commentator say that about the 12 training sessions as well, and I thought I heard wrong. How can it be? Don't you train every day? This number can't be right.

Hapless_Hans wrote:I heard the commentator say that about the 12 training sessions as well, and I thought I heard wrong. How can it be? Don't you train every day? This number can't be right.

The majority of the training sessions aren't full preparations with the entire squad but rather routine recovery sessions. For example they had a game yesterday so they can't do a training game today to train tactics. Here is the schedule:



It's obvious that the team has still not adapted to Tata's ideas. Xavi and Iniesta are still trying to associate play and hold on to the ball instead of just releasing it quickly when possible. Or they try to do it and overdo it and we lose complete control.

Take Messi out of the equation of a team that has been built around him for the last 4+ years and, guess what, it creates a vacuum in the attack.

Truth be said, Barca relied on Messi to either score or orchestrate almost all the scoring.  The fact that there isn't another proven scorer on the squad is a testament to this.

Now that Messi is injured, Barca lack that CF.  Neymar is great... but with a CF at the highest level.  He was fantastic at Confed Cup and on Brazil NT generally because he has Fred.  The defense that is played in Europe cannot be compared to the Brazil league.

Barca underestimates the runs that a natural CF makes and what it does to a defense.  As a former CB, i can tell you that it's much tougher to have guys play off your shoulder, make diagonal runs and runs behind you.... compared to guys that you can see start in front of you.  Because you need to be aware of the threat of that CF, you can't risk anticipating too much.  You need to stay within your area.

imo, Barca need to buy a true CF and incorporate the game of a true CF even when Messi returns.  You can't depend on one guy so much that you ignore the fundamentals of a good attack.

Just my opinion.

futbol wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:I heard the commentator say that about the 12 training sessions as well, and I thought I heard wrong. How can it be? Don't you train every day? This number can't be right.

The majority of the training sessions aren't full preparations with the entire squad but rather routine recovery sessions. For example they had a game yesterday so they can't do a training game today to train tactics. Here is the schedule:



It's obvious that the team has still not adapted to Tata's ideas. Xavi and Iniesta are still trying to associate play and hold on to the ball instead of just releasing it quickly when possible. Or they try to do it and overdo it and we lose complete control.

Ok, interesting, wasn't really considering how few full days you get with a tight competition schedule in 4+ months.
But Tata didn't start training your team on the day of the first league game, right? There was a whole month before that, so maybe that's why I was wondering about that '12' number.

Also, does the fact that you have a recovery training day mean you can make no tactical exercises with the team? And on the pre-game training days, surely the focus is even more on tactics than on other days?
(Honest questions)

The curse of the senyera jersey continues. We still havent one a match in that jersey.

Cesc stats based on position.

No idea why he's being played upfront. He's a midfielder. A slow one who isn't a particularly good dribbler. He won't beat anyone. He won't make off the ball runs ... Against Granada, Busquets-Cesc-Iniesta midfield with Pedro-Neymar-Alexis upfront was our best formation.

first time i've included them in my seven fold bet and they lose  

Hapless_Hans wrote:

futbol wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:I heard the commentator say that about the 12 training sessions as well, and I thought I heard wrong. How can it be? Don't you train every day? This number can't be right.

The majority of the training sessions aren't full preparations with the entire squad but rather routine recovery sessions. For example they had a game yesterday so they can't do a training game today to train tactics. Here is the schedule:



It's obvious that the team has still not adapted to Tata's ideas. Xavi and Iniesta are still trying to associate play and hold on to the ball instead of just releasing it quickly when possible. Or they try to do it and overdo it and we lose complete control.

Ok, interesting, wasn't really considering how few full days you get with a tight competition schedule in 4+ months.
But Tata didn't start training your team on the day of the first league game, right? There was a whole month before that, so maybe that's why I was wondering about that '12' number.

Also, does the fact that you have a recovery training day mean you can make no tactical exercises with the team? And on the pre-game training days, surely the focus is even more on tactics than on other days?
(Honest questions)

That's 25 training sessions available for tactics.

And your argumentation would have any base if we started worse and gradually played better, but that's not the case.

My experience as a football player and coach (both amateur) is that with a month, maximum 2, you can transmit a new playing style into a team.