Re: Barcelona - Athletic 21:00 CET

by Donuts Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:19 pm

I'm sure Tata is not telling his team to pass so sloppy, or telling his team to miss horribly.

The players are to blame just as much as Tata if you watched this game.

by Hapless_Hans Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:20 pm

Cesc actually played some dangerous passes, just Neymar couldn't convert them.

One of the many incredible things about Messi is the way he deals with getting fouled.
He can take a lot, doesn't go down easy, so to stop him you have to REALLY foul him, and then he gets up and continues and doesn't get frustrated.

Neymar keeps falling down and complains.

by The Franchise Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:23 pm

I think we are overreacting a little on our views of individuals. Could of put any individuals out there, but with the same plan, it would of likely failed the exact same way. Just like Ajax, where Song played, where Puyol played and where Pedro played.

I agree, its completely wrong to keep playing Mascherano over Bartra, and its wrong to insist on Cesc as a false 9 and Xavi playing all the time. But again, individuals didnt lose this game.

We lost this game because of our stupid plan.

The goal came because we was so committed to hoofing just because of some pressure. We made 3 passes within the backline and Busquets, decided that was enough and aimlessly hoofed. Lost the 2nd ball, our defence not in an ideal position, Pique had no choice but to come out of the middle and there you go.

by The Franchise Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:24 pm

Donuts wrote:I'm sure Tata is not telling his team to pass so sloppy, or telling his team to miss horribly.

The players are to blame just as much as Tata if you watched this game.

Sloppy passes? They are carrying out his orders for passes over double the length we have been playing the past 5+ years.

by free_cat Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:24 pm

And Valverde, one of the possible candidates for us this summer (before Tito relapsed, Barça had him in their agenda) has showed to be a very capable coach.

Valverde, De Boer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tata.

by free_cat Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:26 pm

The Franchise wrote:I think we are overreacting a little on our views of individuals. Could of put any individuals out there, but with the same plan, it would of likely failed the exact same way. Just like Ajax, where Song played, where Puyol played and where Pedro played.

I agree, its completely wrong to keep playing Mascherano over Bartra, and its wrong to insist on Cesc as a false 9 and Xavi playing all the time. But again, individuals didnt lose this game.

We lost this game because of our stupid plan.

The goal came because we was so committed to hoofing just because of some pressure. We made 3 passes within the backline and Busquets, decided that was enough and aimlessly hoofed. Lost the 2nd ball, our defence not in an ideal position, Pique had no choice but to come out of the middle and there you go.

Well, how can you put a good plan in place if you don't pick the right players? In my eyes it's all Tata's fault today.

by Donuts Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:27 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Donuts wrote:I'm sure Tata is not telling his team to pass so sloppy, or telling his team to miss horribly.

The players are to blame just as much as Tata if you watched this game.
Sloppy passes? They are carrying out his orders for passes over double the length we have been playing the past 5+ years.

Did we watch the same game?
Iniesta, Buscuit, Neymar, Adriano all couldn't link up 5 yard passes under pressure, they passed horribly all game.

by futbol Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:27 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
futbol wrote:Something fundamentally wrong with this team. Got a coach from outside with a completely different mindset. Got Neymar. Still can't score a goal against Athletic Bilbao without Messi, just like last season. Martino will be burned for irrelevancies like "why not play Bartra" but it's not his fault. The midfield of this team is finished even more than the central defense. Xavi and Iniesta take 40 passes to transition to attack, neither do they add much defensively. Alexis, despite his goals this season, still can't get past a defender. And Neymar suddenly looks totally short of confidence for whatever reason. Rosell is the main man to blame I guess. Bar Neymar there hasn't been any proper reinforcements in the past 4 years. We have 2 centerbacks who have cost € 3 million together and 0 strikers in the squad. And when we sub off Xavi, we bring on Sergi Roberto to win us a game.
I'm not in a position to judge as i rarely see you play, but I'm inclined to agree that maybe the problem is not the coach.

It looks to me, simply said, that your team is past it. Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta, PIQUE.

And who could blame them. They've won everything, they've constituted one of the greatest teams ever and dominated world football for years.

But they've got a really tired and burned out look about them. At least that#s my impression.

The way you reacted to the conceded goal was not good.

Yes, they are past it. Up until today I would have excused things with "injuries" (Ajax), "fatigue" (Bayern) etc. But this game confirms it clearly. Probably why Pep left. He saw this coming 2 seasons before it even happened like he also tried to become unpredictable with 3-4-3 experiments before the team got predictable. But Rosell didn't give him what he needed to rebuild the squad. This would explain his sarcastic "leave me alone and just be happy with the players you have" remark in that press conference and the surfacing rumours that he wanted to sell players like Alves, Cesc, Pique etc. shortly after he left.

And yes, I don't blame the players. They just can't do it anymore. Iniesta has 2 Euro Cups, 3 CLs, 1 World Cup and half a dozen league trophies. The hunger isn't there anymore. Mentally it's just not possible.

by Hapless_Hans Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:30 pm

free_cat wrote:
futbol wrote:SMartino will be burned for irrelevancies like "why not play Bartra" but it's not his fault. The midfield of this team is finished even more than the central defense. .
It's friggins Martino who decides to play finished Xavi and out of form Iniesta in midifield! He has world Class Cesc, Song and promising Roberto.

STATUS STATUS STATUS

*bleep* off!

Yes, but I can imagine it's not that easy to come to Barca from the Argentinian league and throw out the first guard of accomplished superstars... the transition always was going to be hard and tricky.

But obviously I don't know if tata is the man for the job, just saying it's an unavoidable problem, when you've had such an successful team for such a long time.

I just can't for the love of god understand why you would let thiago go when it's clear there has to be a changing of the guard in midfield.
sure, he's maybe not at a consistent top level yet, but how can he be; putting in young players is risky and means maybe results will not be good for a while. but getting bad results because you fail to bring in fresh blood is much worse.

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:30 pm

free_cat wrote:
futbol wrote:SMartino will be burned for irrelevancies like "why not play Bartra" but it's not his fault. The midfield of this team is finished even more than the central defense. .
It's friggins Martino who decides to play finished Xavi and out of form Iniesta in midifield! He has world Class Cesc, Song and promising Roberto.

STATUS STATUS STATUS

*bleep* off!

Song flopped hard against Ajax

Either way I agree. His consistent playing of Mascherano and Pique when Barta has been much better than both is deserving of much criticism. His inability to make us cope with pressing and turn us into a pressing side is deserving of even more criticism.

by The Franchise Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:32 pm

free_cat wrote:
The Franchise wrote:I think we are overreacting a little on our views of individuals. Could of put any individuals out there, but with the same plan, it would of likely failed the exact same way. Just like Ajax, where Song played, where Puyol played and where Pedro played.

I agree, its completely wrong to keep playing Mascherano over Bartra, and its wrong to insist on Cesc as a false 9 and Xavi playing all the time. But again, individuals didnt lose this game.

We lost this game because of our stupid plan.

The goal came because we was so committed to hoofing just because of some pressure. We made 3 passes within the backline and Busquets, decided that was enough and aimlessly hoofed. Lost the 2nd ball, our defence not in an ideal position, Pique had no choice but to come out of the middle and there you go.

Well, how can you put a good plan in place if you don't pick the right players? In my eyes it's all Tata's fault today.

Ok sure, but if we replaced Song for Xavi today im sure it would of been no different. Even Bartra for Mascherano, wouldnt of been no different...less sure about that because Mascherano's stupid fouls stop us gaining any momentuum but you understand my point.

by The Franchise Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:33 pm

Donuts wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Donuts wrote:I'm sure Tata is not telling his team to pass so sloppy, or telling his team to miss horribly.

The players are to blame just as much as Tata if you watched this game.
Sloppy passes? They are carrying out his orders for passes over double the length we have been playing the past 5+ years.
Did we watch the same game?
Iniesta, Buscuit, Neymar, Adriano all couldn't link up 5 yard passes under pressure, they passed horribly all game.

Funny what happens when you keep misplacing long passes...you lose confidence and you never gain and rhythem and mometuum.

Players of this calibre dont just misplace easy passes.

by Hapless_Hans Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:33 pm

futbol wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:
futbol wrote:Something fundamentally wrong with this team. Got a coach from outside with a completely different mindset. Got Neymar. Still can't score a goal against Athletic Bilbao without Messi, just like last season. Martino will be burned for irrelevancies like "why not play Bartra" but it's not his fault. The midfield of this team is finished even more than the central defense. Xavi and Iniesta take 40 passes to transition to attack, neither do they add much defensively. Alexis, despite his goals this season, still can't get past a defender. And Neymar suddenly looks totally short of confidence for whatever reason. Rosell is the main man to blame I guess. Bar Neymar there hasn't been any proper reinforcements in the past 4 years. We have 2 centerbacks who have cost € 3 million together and 0 strikers in the squad. And when we sub off Xavi, we bring on Sergi Roberto to win us a game.
I'm not in a position to judge as i rarely see you play, but I'm inclined to agree that maybe the problem is not the coach.

It looks to me, simply said, that your team is past it. Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta, PIQUE.

And who could blame them. They've won everything, they've constituted one of the greatest teams ever and dominated world football for years.

But they've got a really tired and burned out look about them. At least that#s my impression.

The way you reacted to the conceded goal was not good.

Yes, they are past it. Up until today I would have excused things with "injuries" (Ajax), "fatigue" (Bayern) etc. But this game confirms it clearly. Probably why Pep left. He saw this coming 2 seasons before it even happened like he also tried to become unpredictable with 3-4-3 experiments before the team got predictable. But Rosell didn't give him what he needed to rebuild the squad. This would explain his sarcastic "leave me alone and just be happy with the players you have" remark in that press conference and the surfacing rumours that he wanted to sell players like Alves, Cesc, Pique etc. shortly after he left.

And yes, I don't blame the players. They just can't do it anymore. Iniesta has 2 Euro Cups, 3 CLs, 1 World Cup and half a dozen league trophies. The hunger isn't there anymore. Mentally it's just not possible.

Exactly. They're doing pretty fine, all things considered. Ronaldinho at that point probably was already going clubbing instead of training.

you barca fans probably will just have to take into account that there will be a transition period where you won't be at that very top level you're used to.

by free_cat Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:33 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
free_cat wrote:
futbol wrote:SMartino will be burned for irrelevancies like "why not play Bartra" but it's not his fault. The midfield of this team is finished even more than the central defense. .
It's friggins Martino who decides to play finished Xavi and out of form Iniesta in midifield! He has world Class Cesc, Song and promising Roberto.

STATUS STATUS STATUS

*bleep* off!
Song flopped hard against Ajax

Either way I agree. His consistent playing of Mascherano and Pique when Barta has been much better than both is deserving of much criticism. His inability to make us cope with pressing and turn us into a pressing side is deserving of even more criticism.

Xavi and Iniesta flopped hard against Ajax too. Yet who goes to bench? The player with status (Xavi, Iniesta)? No, off course, only Song.

Anyway, the start should be Cesc, not Song, and Roberto then.

by futbol Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:34 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
free_cat wrote:
futbol wrote:SMartino will be burned for irrelevancies like "why not play Bartra" but it's not his fault. The midfield of this team is finished even more than the central defense. .
It's friggins Martino who decides to play finished Xavi and out of form Iniesta in midifield! He has world Class Cesc, Song and promising Roberto.

STATUS STATUS STATUS

*bleep* off!
Song flopped hard against Ajax

Either way I agree. His consistent playing of Mascherano and Pique when Barta has been much better than both is deserving of much criticism. His inability to make us cope with pressing and turn us into a pressing side is deserving of even more criticism.

Do you watch Barcelona? Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets got doublepenetrated in the ass by the pressing of Paulinho and Luiz Gustavo. And this happened under del Bosque, one of the greatest coaches of all time. The players are finished. Stop talking about Bartra and Cesc false 9. lmao

by free_cat Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:35 pm

The Franchise wrote:
free_cat wrote:
The Franchise wrote:I think we are overreacting a little on our views of individuals. Could of put any individuals out there, but with the same plan, it would of likely failed the exact same way. Just like Ajax, where Song played, where Puyol played and where Pedro played.

I agree, its completely wrong to keep playing Mascherano over Bartra, and its wrong to insist on Cesc as a false 9 and Xavi playing all the time. But again, individuals didnt lose this game.

We lost this game because of our stupid plan.

The goal came because we was so committed to hoofing just because of some pressure. We made 3 passes within the backline and Busquets, decided that was enough and aimlessly hoofed. Lost the 2nd ball, our defence not in an ideal position, Pique had no choice but to come out of the middle and there you go.

Well, how can you put a good plan in place if you don't pick the right players? In my eyes it's all Tata's fault today.
Ok sure, but if we replaced Song for Xavi today im sure it would of been no different. Even Bartra for Mascherano, wouldnt of been no different...less sure about that because Mascherano's stupid fouls stop us gaining any momentuum but you understand my point.

Well, I agree, our plan (hoofing it) sucks, so I agree with you, but I also feel that his selection sucked. As said, for me he can fuk off if he doesn't change his tactics and selection.

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:37 pm

free_cat wrote:And Valverde, one of the possible candidates for us this summer (before Tito relapsed, Barça had him in their agenda) has showed to be a very capable coach.

Valverde, De Boer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tata.

Most underrated coach in the world

by The Franchise Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:38 pm

I dont disagree, I dont like his selection either.

Players are doing decent jobs (Song, Bartra, Sergi Roberto in preseason) and not getting the consistency they deserve.

Alexis is the only one really who's improvement has resulted in performance but thats normal because he has some status and has to be used.

by free_cat Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:38 pm

futbol wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
free_cat wrote:It's friggins Martino who decides to play finished Xavi and out of form Iniesta in midifield! He has world Class Cesc, Song and promising Roberto.

STATUS STATUS STATUS

*bleep* off!
Song flopped hard against Ajax

Either way I agree. His consistent playing of Mascherano and Pique when Barta has been much better than both is deserving of much criticism. His inability to make us cope with pressing and turn us into a pressing side is deserving of even more criticism.
Do you watch Barcelona? Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets got doublepenetrated in the ass by the pressing of Paulinho and Luiz Gustavo. And this happened under del Bosque, one of the greatest coaches of all time. The players are finished. Stop talking about Bartra and Cesc false 9. lmao

You ask me if I watch Barcelona and then talk about a Spain's game? You are the most annoying poster I've ever come across Barça forum.

Busquets and Iniesta are not finished, Xavi kinda is. But it's still Tata's fault to pick finished players when he has quality and promising players to replace them (Cesc, Roberto, Song).

by futbol Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:41 pm

We are hoofing it more because the players can't counter press and patiently build from the back as they used to anymore. I thought that became abundantly clear when Real Madrid, Bayern and Brazil all outpressed the Barca midfield in the same season.

by Collblanc Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:41 pm

Puta Tata!!!!!!

by The Franchise Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:45 pm

futbol wrote:We are hoofing it more because the players can't counter press and patiently build from the back as they used to anymore. I thought that became abundantly clear when Real Madrid, Bayern and Brazil all outpressed the Barca midfield in the same season.

Nah thats not true at all. Why wouldnt they be able to pass out of pressure? You dont need anything but a plan and composure, skill and technique for that...your telling me thats what we lack?

We couldnt pass out of pressure of Bayern and Madrid because we dont follow our philosphy at all. We didnt create midfield rotation, we didnt advance the fullbacks, we didnt form 3 at the back...stark different from before.

Also, in those games we didnt pressure back so we only won and therefore only retained the ball at the back, therefore not relieving any tension on the back 4.

by Donuts Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:47 pm

I understand you guys are angry but to say we should sack Tata is spoiled.
we have done well until the past two weeks, quit acting like Madrid fans.

by free_cat Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:52 pm

Donuts wrote:I understand you guys are angry but to say we should sack Tata is spoiled.
we have done well until the past two weeks, quit acting like Madrid fans.

IF Tata is to continue picking players based on status instead of merit.
IF Tata is to continue make us hoof the ball when the opposition plays open, while playing slow handball when the opposition parks it (we should do just the opposite, calm a game and break the press vs open opposition and play fast and take advantadge of counter attacking options vs park the bus)

Then he has to be sacked, NOW.

by jibers Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:54 pm

The Franchise wrote:
futbol wrote:We are hoofing it more because the players can't counter press and patiently build from the back as they used to anymore. I thought that became abundantly clear when Real Madrid, Bayern and Brazil all outpressed the Barca midfield in the same season.
Nah thats not true at all. Why wouldnt they be able to pass out of pressure? You dont need anything but a plan and composure, skill and technique for that...your telling me thats what we lack?

We couldnt pass out of pressure of Bayern and Madrid because we dont follow our philosphy at all. We didnt create midfield rotation, we didnt advance the fullbacks, we didnt form 3 at the back...stark different from before.

Also, in those games we didnt pressure back so we only won and therefore only retained the ball at the back, therefore not relieving any tension on the back 4.

Dani people have to accept that all that is over, that was Pep's tactics. Even the positional play has dissappeared, that ridiculous pressure was Peps as well, people saying Barcelona should play like before really need to get a grip, they never will because the coach in no longer there. Although I'm not sure what Tata is playing at.

by futbol Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:54 pm

The Franchise wrote:
futbol wrote:We are hoofing it more because the players can't counter press and patiently build from the back as they used to anymore. I thought that became abundantly clear when Real Madrid, Bayern and Brazil all outpressed the Barca midfield in the same season.
Nah thats not true at all. Why wouldnt they be able to pass out of pressure? You dont need anything but a plan and composure, skill and technique for that...your telling me thats what we lack?

We couldnt pass out of pressure of Bayern and Madrid because we dont follow our philosphy at all. We didnt create midfield rotation, we didnt advance the fullbacks, we didnt form 3 at the back...stark different from before.

Also, in those games we didnt pressure back so we only won and therefore only retained the ball at the back, therefore not relieving any tension on the back 4.

You need intensity. Something we don't have anymore. You talk about "midfield rotation" as if those kind of positional changes in a high complex pressing system don't require physical and mental sharpness. 2 things players like Xavi and Iniesta don't have anymore. Xavi has played as many European games as Giggs at 33. Giggs is 40. Any elite team with technical players would press like prime Barca if it was as simple as you portray it with fullback positioning + composure + midfield rotation.

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