Congrats to Bayern on winning the BL!

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:52 pm

lol, that 'Abramovich' named guy coming here to give US shit about buying players...

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Post by rwo power Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:56 pm

The_Badger wrote:That's only true of this season though and if anything shows how weak their squad is past its first XI.
So you think for example Real Madrid missing all of Pepe, Ramos, Carvajal, Arbeloa, Xabi Alonso, Modric and Khedira at the same time won't matter or Barcelona missing Alves, Pique, Puyol, Alba, Busquets, Song and Xavi?

BTW, two seasons ago it was Dortmund who won the BL with record points, not Bayern.
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Post by The_Badger Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:59 pm

rwo power wrote:
The_Badger wrote:That's only true of this season though and if anything shows how weak their squad is past its first XI.
So you think for example Real Madrid missing all of Pepe, Ramos, Carvajal, Arbeloa, Xabi Alonso, Modric and Khedira at the same time won't matter or Barcelona missing Alves, Pique, Puyol, Alba, Busquets, Song and Xavi?

BTW, two seasons ago it was Dortmund who won the BL with record points, not Bayern.

Were BVB missing their starting defence last season?

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:06 pm

Dortmund had 66 points last season, which, as I wrote, used to be enough to be in there in a close title fight in many seasons.
It's just we had 91 points, 10 more than their record 81 points the year before.
That's the difference, not them being especially bad.

But I agree, unlike us they don't have the depth to play a strong CL campaign AND have enough energy to repeat their 2012 record performance in the league. But that is not a lack of success, that is normality.
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Post by Abramovich Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:08 pm

There's a difference between stocking up on young talent and buying the best players from direct rivals in order to weaken them and walk the league.

New SPL soon :bow:

Buyern the new Celtic :bow:
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:12 pm

yeah, *bleep* off.
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Post by The_Badger Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:16 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:Dortmund had 66 points last season, which, as I wrote, used to be enough to be in there in a close title fight in many seasons.
It's just we had 91 points, 10 more than their record 81 points the year before.
That's the difference, not them being especially bad.

But I agree, unlike us they don't have the depth to play a strong CL campaign AND have enough energy to repeat their 2012 record performance in the league. But that is not a lack of success, that is normality.

See that's what I don't quite get about what you're saying about BVB being stable. They win the league one season with 81 points, the season after they finish second with 66. Where's those 15 points going? No 

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Post by Abramovich Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:19 pm

I think buying their best young talent and then tapping up their nest striker might have something to do with it....

Beckenbauer : "if you can't beat them buy them, the true buyern way."

Buyern :bow:
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:21 pm

The_Badger wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:Dortmund had 66 points last season, which, as I wrote, used to be enough to be in there in a close title fight in many seasons.
It's just we had 91 points, 10 more than their record 81 points the year before.
That's the difference, not them being especially bad.

But I agree, unlike us they don't have the depth to play a strong CL campaign AND have enough energy to repeat their 2012 record performance in the league. But that is not a lack of success, that is normality.

See that's what I don't quite get about what you're saying about BVB being stable. They win the league one season with 81 points, the season after they finish second with 66. Where's those 15 points going? No 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that those 81 points are a record season, not something you could expect them to repeat easily. As I said that was the FIRST TIME EVER a team had more than 80 points. How can you take that as the measure for Dortmund being stable or not stable? 66 points is very stable in the Bundesliga.
Also as I said it coincided with a terrible CL campaign. Their lack of depth doesn't suffice for both, that's where we both I guess agree, and that's where the 15 points went - they fueled their run to the CL final.


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Post by Highburied Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:23 pm

Well deserved.

Worked hard to buy as much players as possible so they can rotate as much as they can.

My message to Buyern is Slow the fuk down! Very Happy
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Post by The_Badger Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:25 pm

I think finishing with 15 points less than the season before is kind of worrying.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:27 pm

The_Badger wrote:I think finishing with 15 points less than the season before is kind of worrying.
but if you play a record season you're bound to finish with less after?!

unless you bring in Pep, that is.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:28 pm

Highburied wrote:Well deserved.

Worked hard to buy as much players as possible so they can rotate as much as they can.

My message to Buyern is Slow the fuk down! Very Happy

thanks, mate. Nice sig, btw.

But remember, you spent more on player this year than we did..
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Post by The_Badger Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:34 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
The_Badger wrote:I think finishing with 15 points less than the season before is kind of worrying.
but if you play a record season you're bound to finish with less after?!

unless you bring in Pep, that is.

Not necessarily. Progress and stability wouldn't be them ending that far back points-wise.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:37 pm

The_Badger wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:
The_Badger wrote:I think finishing with 15 points less than the season before is kind of worrying.
but if you play a record season you're bound to finish with less after?!

unless you bring in Pep, that is.

Not necessarily. Progress and stability wouldn't be them ending that far back points-wise.

that's why I conjured up all that numbers. Around 70 points is a league winning tally in the Bundeliga usually, that's why I said they are having progress and stability, even if they don#t repeat their record season. But we're going in circles.
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:32 am

I think we all knew one day or another Dortmund was going to fall apart. They're that cinderella story team that comes around less often then not and surprise everyone with their football, determination and style, as pushing a lot of top teams to the edge, but eventually are bound to fall apart. Their stars eventually become targets of bigger clubs that offer better pay and more competitive football and to some of their stars it ends up being there boyhood dream club coming for them, which is hard to turn down for anyone.  No 

Its going to be hard for Dortmund as recently their director pretty much hinted that Gundogan may also be gone this summer. Some players need to move to bigger clubs for the sake of their national team career as well. Defence is a department that every team is looking into, so they will be after Dortmund back line. We are after Hummels, so Dortmund kindly do sell him to us Smile As time goes it'll keep happening and I bet even Klopp will get sick of it and move.

I don't know what the big fuss about Bayern taking Gotze and Lewy is. Those two were bound to leave Dortmund, so would Bayern rather have them join RM, Chelsea, Barcelona, etc or bring them over to there side. I don't see the difference either way Dortmund are getting weaker, BM without those two would still beat them and win this league.

Anyways from pure business point of view I wouldn't define them as a stable club, as they can't hold on to their star players, while there rival are getting stronger. I do understand they have injuries, but wouldn't make a big difference, Bayern are on another level right now.
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Post by BarcaLearning Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:56 am

Winter is Coming wrote:I think we all knew one day or another Dortmund was going to fall apart. They're that cinderella story team that comes around less often then not and surprise everyone with their football, determination and style, as pushing a lot of top teams to the edge, but eventually are bound to fall apart. Their stars eventually become targets of bigger clubs that offer better pay and more competitive football and to some of their stars it ends up being there boyhood dream club coming for them, which is hard to turn down for anyone.  No 

Its going to be hard for Dortmund as recently their director pretty much hinted that Gundogan may also be gone this summer. Some players need to move to bigger clubs for the sake of their national team career as well. Defence is a department that every team is looking into, so they will be after Dortmund back line. We are after Hummels, so Dortmund kindly do sell him to us :)As time goes it'll keep happening and I bet even Klopp will get sick of it and move.

I don't know what the big fuss about Bayern taking Gotze and Lewy is. Those two were bound to leave Dortmund, so would Bayern rather have them join RM, Chelsea, Barcelona, etc or bring them over to there side. I don't see the difference either way Dortmund are getting weaker, BM without those two would still beat them and win this league.

Anyways from pure business point of view I wouldn't define them as a stable club, as they can't hold on to their star players, while there rival are getting stronger. I do understand they have injuries, but wouldn't make a big difference, Bayern are on another level right now.

I got the impression that Dortmund could be different in that they have a good business model and are financially stable even if some of their stars leave for bigger clubs, they are source good replacements?
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:14 am

Of course they can, thats a possibility, but today you have sugar daddy clubs like Chelsea, City, PSG, and Monaco, for even clubs like United, Barcelona, Milan, Juve, etc we all need to spend to keep up with them at times, Dortmund are going to have a long road and how many players will stick around? Their scouting is great, but once they scout someone 2-3 years later if not earlier he's on the radar of a bigger club. Klopp is also a huge part if he doesn't stay who do they hire? Will this guy have the same pull? How do we know Klopp won't take some of his players to his new club, when he decides to leave? There are many possibility.

I'm not saying I don't want Dortmund to stick around of course I do, but they have a long road a head of them with many obstacles in the way.
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Post by rwo power Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:16 am

Winter is Coming wrote:Anyways from pure business point of view I wouldn't define them as a stable club, as they can't hold on to their star players, while there rival are getting stronger. I do understand they have injuries, but wouldn't make a big difference, Bayern are on another level right now.
Actuaslly, Dortmund *are* a stable club from the business point as they act 100% within their financial possibilities. That's why they don't offer their players unsustainable wages and rather risk them leaving than going bankrupt again. Mind you, Dortmund have gone from being virtually bankrupt in 2005 to a turnover of 305 mio Euros for the 2012/13 season with a profit (!) of 53.3 mio Euros, which are an increase of 19 mio Euros from the profit of 34.3 mio Euros they got in the season before that.

I guess you didn't have the chance to see the numerous interviews with Dortmund's CEO Aki Watzke and sport director Michael Zorc - they repeatedly stated that they are aware they will lose high profile players each season, but they consider it their challenge to find new stars and develop them. As a matter of fact, those people that always think that Jürgen Klopp will grow tired of losing his top guys - actually this is what he expected from the beginning, and he considers it his challenge to constinue making Dortmund better until that doesn't happen anymore. He said not too long ago that he was really surprised that Dortmund recovered much faster since he took over than he ever expected.

When Klopp took over in 2008, Dortmund were 13th in the BL, and he brought them to 6th in 2008/09, 5th in 2009/10 and then 2 times winning the BL in 2010/11 and 2011/12, the latter with a before unprecedented record of 81 points.

That he "only" reached a 2nd place in 2012/13 probably comes as a horrible failure for bandwagoners, but it is still a huge success, especially as they got into the CL final.

Dortmund is just continuing to consolidate their finances with a clear and stable plan, which of course is not so easy to understand for people who support sugar daddy clubs or clubs that prefer to finance players by accumulating massive debts.

Oh, and btw, there is a reason that all of Watzke, Zorc and Klopp recently signed new long term contracts with Dortmund - they really like their project. ^^
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:34 am

Well then I apologize for my misinformed information. They remind me a little about us back in 2002-2003 in a similar situation, so who knows this may be good for them at the end of the day, but with the raise in todays football and competitive teams I find more a difficult task for them ahead. Especially the wage thing, which today a lot of players demand, which could hurt them.

I did read an article about the CEO, but when they spoke about Gundogan and how they plan on only losing one super stars, but what happens say if they lose 2-3 players in one summer?

I understand were your coming with the finances thing today and especially how many Germans club are proud of it. I remember plenty of times were our boards looked to Bayern and how they do their business financially unfortunately we have a long way to go before we get there and may never at the way we are going.

Its great for their commitment and dedication to the project, but many project do get abandon. Especially considering Bayern who seem to be set for the next 4-5 years to destroy almost anything coming in their path.

How do they fair on global scale? Worldwide.
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Post by rwo power Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:22 am

Well, I guess it is the task of the sport director to time the contracts so that they don't lose 2-3 key players in one season. Whether he will always manage that - I honestly don't know. But in the Mario Götze / Robert Lewandowski situation, they did simply demanded Lewa to honour his contract, and so they "only" lost Götze last season. Of course Lewa is due this season, but what happens with Ilkay Gündogan is anyone's guess. Not that he was of much use to Dortmund this season anyway with his back injury...

As for Dortmund's recovery - I mean, you have to remember they almost went into administration in 2005, so them becoming the second biggest club (financially) behind Bayern in the BL within just 5 or 6 years is actually incredible. Mind you, they even had to sell their stadium in 2003 to service their debts - and by now they have both their stadium back and they are debt-free. If you look at it that way, you can see that Dortmund are doing a lot of things very right recently.

As for their impact on the global scale - so far much less than Bayern's, of course, but they get better known if they keep up their attractive football in the CL and in the BL, too, which is working to sell their TV rights better internationally as well.

Oh, and in the Deloitte Football Money League 2014 you find Borussia Dortmund currently at rank 11, which is not too shabby, either.
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Post by free_cat Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:25 am

Hapless_Hans wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:19 point gap in February Shocked

Simply said, we've never been that consistenly good before.
I posted it recently, in the Bundesliga thread, but the Bundesliga used to be won with a point tally of 65-75 points, even just 63 or less in some seasons.
In our most souvereign seasons under Hitzfeld, we had about 75 points.
Van Gaal publicly made the calculation that 2 points per game average suffices to win the Bundesliga.
But Dortmund in 2012 was the first team to break the 80 points barrier and destroy that calculation, and Dortmund's strength and back to back titles really seem to have pushed us further, that and the good work done buiding on Van Gaal's foundation.
Last season was the best season ever played with 91 points, now with Pep we're already 5 points (!!) better than last season.

Again, it's not the case that the rest are underperforming or that the league has become worse, but we're simply flying high right now.
Pep is making us win every game, that's simply unprecedented. But I remember Pepcelona won the league by high margins and a similar win ratio as well. And Sammer's influence is not to be underestimated as well. The guy is a success machine as well.

But Pep is a genius, pure and simple.

Spot on.
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Post by Helmer Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:57 am

Highburied wrote:Well deserved.

Worked hard to buy as much players as possible so they can rotate as much as they can.

My message to Buyern is Slow the fuk down! Very Happy
well they have become scary and it is like teams are playing Bayern with some kind of mental block and I think Pep also has effect on the opposition team coaches to not play their actual game sometimes

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Post by Red Alert Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:12 am

Can someone post the Bayern squads "worth" please.

Sick of them being called "Buyern" when the likes of Chelsea, City, Madrid, PSG, and co have spent almost DOUBLE the amount "Buyern" have in the last 5 years or so.


Last edited by Red Alert on Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Helmer Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:17 am

I think bayern have the a good balanced approach in terms of academy players and bought players from other teams. They have such a wonderful functioning system, on a commercial level , management level and off course on the pitch too.

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Post by rwo power Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:34 am

Well, transfermarkt.de claims that Bayern's current worth is around 525 mio Euros.

But one has to consider that Holger Badstuber (10 mio), Diego Contento (2 mio), David Alaba (32 mio), Philipp Lahm (30 mio), Bastian Schweinsteiger (40 mio), Toni Kroos (40 mio), and Thomas Müller (45 mio)  came to them basically for free from their own youth. That's almost 200 mio worth that Bayern created from "nothing".

Most of the other players also saw an increase in worth from the price that Bayern paid:
Manuel Neuer (worth: 35 mio / cost: 27.5 mio)
Dante (worth: 17 mio / cost: 4.7 mio)
Jérôme Boateng (worth: 28 mio / cost: 13.5 mio)
Rafinha (worth: 8 mio / cost: 5.5 mio)
Javi Martínez (worth: 37 mio / cost: 40 mio)
Thiago Alcántara  (worth: 30 mio / cost: 25 mio)
Mario Götze (worth: 55 mio / cost: 37.5 mio)
Franck Ribéry (worth: 42 mio / cost: 25 mio)
Arjen Robben (worth: 25 mio / cost: 24 mio)
Xherdan Shaqiri (worth: 20 mio / cost: 11.8 mio)
Mario Mandzukic (worth: 23 mio / cost: 13 mio)

So you could say Bayern usually do some shrewd business. (Although they do allow meritorious players to leave for a considerably lower price than they paid if they want to leave and they are surplus to requirement.)


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