OFFICIAL: FIFA Ballon d'or 2013 - Voting extended

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OFFICIAL: FIFA Ballon d'or 2013 - Voting extended - Page 39 Empty Re: OFFICIAL: FIFA Ballon d'or 2013 - Voting extended

Post by Harmonica Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:59 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I'll appeal to your unique sense of logic: Do you think Messi has a better prospect of being remembered as the GOAT in 30 years if he wins this award (which he already won several times) or if he wins the WC? Laughing
That has got nothing to do with the truth. Truth is, Messi deserves this more than Cronaldo. Cronaldo would be the most undeserved winner of its history. So that's why he in no case should win it.

You're like these late Barcelona "fans", caring little of your players, or the truth, just so that you can hide the failures and biases, and in the same time big up your own agendas.

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Post by jibers Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:01 pm

Harmonica wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:I'll appeal to your unique sense of logic: Do you think Messi has a better prospect of being remembered as the GOAT in 30 years if he wins this award (which he already won several times) or if he wins the WC? Laughing
That has got nothing to do with the truth. Truth is, Messi deserves this more than Cronaldo. Cronaldo would be the most undeserved winner of its history. So that's why he in no case should win it.

You're like these late Barcelona "fans", caring little of your players, or the truth, just so that you can hide the failures and biases, and in the same time big up your own agendas.

pls respond
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Post by Harmonica Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:03 pm

jibers wrote:Jiopsi do u believe  Kruse is a top 5 player in Europe. Please stop avoiding my question...ty
No.
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:04 pm

Harmonica wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:I'll appeal to your unique sense of logic: Do you think Messi has a better prospect of being remembered as the GOAT in 30 years if he wins this award (which he already won several times) or if he wins the WC? Laughing
That has got nothing to do with the truth. Truth is, Messi deserves this more than Cronaldo. Cronaldo would be the most undeserved winner of its history. So that's why he in no case should win it.

You're like these late Barcelona "fans", caring little of your players, or the truth, just so that you can hide the failures and biases, and in the same time big up your own agendas.

Quite funny considering your loyalty to Barcelona is usually in question within this forum, given the questionable disparity between your support for Barcelona and Messi.

Pot kettle black on every aspect.
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Post by futbol Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:08 pm

sportsczy wrote:
Gil wrote:Anyone who takes Whoscored seriously is a simpleton. Not only are the stats wholly inaccurate but their grading system is subjective and flawed.
 Everything there is provided by OPTA, even the grading system.  Nothing statistical is created internally.  To me, they're one of the most reliable sites out there.  The fact that they are providing all these OPTA generated stats for free is something peeps should appreciate because it's very expensive.

It's useful indeed. It's still flawed though, especially the rating system. The biggest flaw is the "key pass" statistic which has huge influence on the overall rating. OPTA defines "key pass" as "the final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate". Which is just horrible. By that definition if a midfielder plays the most amazing throughball to the winger, taking out 2 or 3 defenders and opening up the whole pitch with the pass and the winger just squares it to the middle to the striker who scores, then the winger will get "1 key pass" and the midfielder will have 0. Happened to Iniesta who had 0 key passes according to OPTA in the EC 2012 final against Italy. I guess I must have simply hallucinated when seeing this pass then:



Laughing

Also "key passes" shouldn't depend on the shooting ability of your teammates obviously. How is it the passer's fault if the striker can't score? But according to OPTA your teammate must shoot on goal for your pass to be rated "key". lol

OPTA isn't always off but when it is it really is off ... According to OPTA Leverkusen is the third best team in the world this season. rofl

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Post by jibers Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:12 pm

futbol wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
Gil wrote:Anyone who takes Whoscored seriously is a simpleton. Not only are the stats wholly inaccurate but their grading system is subjective and flawed.
 Everything there is provided by OPTA, even the grading system.  Nothing statistical is created internally.  To me, they're one of the most reliable sites out there.  The fact that they are providing all these OPTA generated stats for free is something peeps should appreciate because it's very expensive.

It's useful indeed. It's still flawed though, especially the rating system. The biggest flaw is the "key pass" statistic which has huge influence on the overall rating. OPTA defines "key pass" as "the final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate". Which is just horrible. By that definition if a midfielder plays the most amazing throughball to the winger, taking out 2 or 3 defenders and opening up the whole pitch with the pass and the winger just squares it to the middle to the striker who scores, then the winger will get "1 key pass" and the midfielder will have 0. Happened to Iniesta who had 0 key passes according to OPTA in the EC 2012 final against Italy. I guess I must have simply hallucinated when seeing this pass then:



Laughing

Also "key passes" shouldn't depend on the shooting ability of your teammates obviously. How is it the passer's fault if the striker can't score? But according to OPTA your teammate must shoot on goal for your pass to be rated "key". lol

OPTA isn't always off but when it is it really is off ... According to OPTA Leverkusen is the third best team in the world this season. rofl

spot on again. The best poster on this forum ffs. Key passes mean *bleep* all
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Post by sportsczy Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:17 pm

You do realize the Leverkusen is only 4 points behind Bayern in Bundi, right?  They've takent 37 out of a possible 45 points so far.  If they beat Chaktar at home, they qualify for 2nd round of CL.  Reached quarters of German Cup too.

I can totally see why they would be ranked 3rd statistically right now.  Big reason is that German teams have an extra game or 2 compared to other leagues since they've played 3 rounds of cup competition.  That counts a lot in statistics...

Regarding key passes... it's a good way to measure final ball effectiveness without relying on the quality of the strikers.  It decreases the variable of quality of finishing; only thing the striker needs to do is shoot it on goal lol.  Cleaner stat than a pure assist imo.

I'll add that looking at one stat in isolation is never a good idea. You want to combine several for a midfielder and, even then, it's subjective. Stats are a lot more telling for positions like goalkeeping and striker. OPTA is only providing stats... nothing else.


Last edited by sportsczy on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by futbol Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:22 pm

Being second in their league and third in their CL group makes them the third best team in the world?

Domestic Cup games aren't included in those stats btw.

How do you quantify "losing 2-9 to Moyes" anyway?

Edit: Sorry, my bad. Didn't realize you were defending it because Ribery is leading the ranking table right now. Proud

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Post by sportsczy Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:32 pm

I just checked... they have Leverkusen ranked 3rd in league play only, no CL or cup. I can totally see why Leverkusen is 3rd if you look at league play only... again, 37 out of 45 total points.

They don't do these rankings for anything else.

http://www.whoscored.com/Statistics
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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:34 pm

stats are great, but they are stats. Certain things are measured according to certain methods.

Only a fool would rely solely on them, because then you end up like Wenger, wondering after you lose to Chelsea and Drogba has torn you apart: "It's funny because if you look at the statistics, Drogba doesn't do very much"
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Post by jibers Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:41 pm

sportsczy wrote:You do realize the Leverkusen is only 4 points behind Bayern in Bundi, right?  They've takent 37 out of a possible 45 points so far.  If they beat Chaktar at home, they qualify for 2nd round of CL.  Reached quarters of German Cup too.

I can totally see why they would be ranked 3rd statistically right now.  Big reason is that German teams have an extra game or 2 compared to other leagues since they've played 3 rounds of cup competition.  That counts a lot in statistics...

Regarding key passes... it's a good way to measure final ball effectiveness without relying on the quality of the strikers.  It decreases the variable of quality of finishing; only thing the striker needs to do is shoot it on goal lol.  Cleaner stat than a pure assist imo.

I'll add that looking at one stat in isolation is never a good idea.  You want to combine several for a midfielder and, even then, it's subjective.  Stats are a lot more telling for positions like goalkeeping and striker.  OPTA is only providing stats... nothing else.

Is this the greatest key pass and measurement of final ball in history?

DAT Xavi assist :bow:

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Post by futbol Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:41 pm

Great vision to spot Messi's run tbf. :coffee:

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Post by sportsczy Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:45 pm

I only rely on stats for strikers and keepers tbh... even with those guys, it's only 3/4 of the story. There's always the "eyeball" factor.

Every statistical model is based on assumptions. So it all comes down to whether you accept the assumptions or not.
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