Batista vs Menezes.

Which coach is more competent?

Both have been somewhat pathetic so far in my opinion.

Menezes commits blatant nepotism by fielding mediocre players like Andre Santos, doesn't call up key players for trivial reasons, did little to prepare his team tactically, cannot offer any clear philosophy.

Batista is obsessed with emulating Barcelona, even though his squad is very unsuited for that. Furthermore, he's started Tevez in every game so far because he's popular among Argentines despite Tevez being the forward least effective in this type of "Barcelona" football. Gabriel Milito starting for Argentina is a travesty that even fielding 3 defensive midfielders cannot make up for. Tactically deluded/naive as well.

getting the tactics wrong is a more punishable offense than getting the players wrong.

With a different set of players, Argentina would look much better, while Brazil doesnt have a clue of how they should go about attacking, it's a mess.

I think Batista at least has an idea of what the team should play like, and he is committed to it, while Menezes just after the 1st game was already changing the outlay.

Menezes changed his tatics because it didnt work in the first game, so obviously you have to change it, and it worked at times Brasil had complete dominance at times in todays game with possession. All he did was take out a foward(Robinho)And put in a another playmaker to help out Ganso(Jadson). Brasil only lost because of stupid mistakes.Unlike Batista who is tried the same system for 2 games and it didnt work. We'll definetly see a different Argentina against Costa Rica. Atleast Mano isnt scared to change his team.

biggiejay wrote:Menezes changed his tatics because it didnt work in the first game, so obviously you have to change it, and it worked at times Brasil had complete dominance at times in todays game with possession. All he did was take out a foward(Robinho)And put in a another playmaker to help out Ganso(Jadson). Brasil only lost because of stupid mistakes.Unlike Batista who is tried the same system for 2 games and it didnt work. We'll definetly see a different Argentina against Costa Rica. Atleast Mano isnt scared to change his team.

My point is that he is supposed to have an idea of the gameplan and work around it. It doesnt help the team when you change tactics from one game to the next, and they didnt look any better. Is he gonna change again?

At least Batista had an idea and is sticking by it.

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:

biggiejay wrote:Menezes changed his tatics because it didnt work in the first game, so obviously you have to change it, and it worked at times Brasil had complete dominance at times in todays game with possession. All he did was take out a foward(Robinho)And put in a another playmaker to help out Ganso(Jadson). Brasil only lost because of stupid mistakes.Unlike Batista who is tried the same system for 2 games and it didnt work. We'll definetly see a different Argentina against Costa Rica. Atleast Mano isnt scared to change his team.

My point is that he is supposed to have an idea of the gameplan and work around it. It doesnt help the team when you change tactics from one game to the next, and they didnt look any better. Is he gonna change again?

At least Batista had an idea and is sticking by it.

But isn't that the mark of a good coach? Changing and adapting your gameplan when it doesn't work (Menezes), instead of singlemindedly driving on with the same faulty tactics when they fail. (Batista)

Omniscient wrote:

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:

biggiejay wrote:Menezes changed his tatics because it didnt work in the first game, so obviously you have to change it, and it worked at times Brasil had complete dominance at times in todays game with possession. All he did was take out a foward(Robinho)And put in a another playmaker to help out Ganso(Jadson). Brasil only lost because of stupid mistakes.Unlike Batista who is tried the same system for 2 games and it didnt work. We'll definetly see a different Argentina against Costa Rica. Atleast Mano isnt scared to change his team.

My point is that he is supposed to have an idea of the gameplan and work around it. It doesnt help the team when you change tactics from one game to the next, and they didnt look any better. Is he gonna change again?

At least Batista had an idea and is sticking by it.

But isn't that the mark of a good coach? Changing and adapting your gameplan when it doesn't work (Menezes), instead of singlemindedly driving on with the same faulty tactics when they fail. (Batista)

mine, a good coach can change tactic & make it better like ferguson, unlike menezes

& another note, a excellent coach always successfully maintaining his tactic style like guardiola, unlike batista

Like i explained in my first post, Batista is coupable of picking the wrong players.

Menezes is playing with a young team, i dont think it helps to change tactics like that.

You could have had a great point if they didnt flop so badly today, they were even more clueless than during the first game. They played more long balls and tried to be more direct, and they ended up scoring.

Omniscient wrote:

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:

biggiejay wrote:Menezes changed his tatics because it didnt work in the first game, so obviously you have to change it, and it worked at times Brasil had complete dominance at times in todays game with possession. All he did was take out a foward(Robinho)And put in a another playmaker to help out Ganso(Jadson). Brasil only lost because of stupid mistakes.Unlike Batista who is tried the same system for 2 games and it didnt work. We'll definetly see a different Argentina against Costa Rica. Atleast Mano isnt scared to change his team.

My point is that he is supposed to have an idea of the gameplan and work around it. It doesnt help the team when you change tactics from one game to the next, and they didnt look any better. Is he gonna change again?

At least Batista had an idea and is sticking by it.

But isn't that the mark of a good coach? Changing and adapting your gameplan when it doesn't work (Menezes), instead of singlemindedly driving on with the same faulty tactics when they fail. (Batista)

A good coach isnt scared to change his tactics to get the best out of his players. These are all world class players if one is not performing well, theres competent subs on the bench you have to change it up. Brasil didnt play amazing but there was a improvement from the first game against Venezuela. Batista has arguably the best foward line the world. When you have the likes of Di Maria, Hinguain,Milito and Aguero on the bench why on the world wont you change it up?

if i not mistaken, this batista's tactic almost similar with the one he succesfully used at the 2008 olympic

but the different was, there are no riquelme around in this copa squad

awalezelin wrote:if i not mistaken, this batista's tactic almost similar with the one he succesfully used at the 2008 olympic

but the different was, there are no riquelme around in this copa squad

Riquelme wasn't at the 2008 Olympics...

Lionel Messi wrote:

awalezelin wrote:if i not mistaken, this batista's tactic almost similar with the one he succesfully used at the 2008 olympic

but the different was, there are no riquelme around in this copa squad

Riquelme wasn't at the 2008 Olympics...

then, who captained that albiceleste squad?

in the semi, albiceleste won 3-0 vs brazil, aguero scored 2, who scored another one?

may be ghost, i guess....

:bball: :bball: :bball: :bball: :bball:

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:getting the tactics wrong is a more punishable offense than getting the players wrong.

With a different set of players, Argentina would look much better, while Brazil doesnt have a clue of how they should go about attacking, it's a mess.

I think Batista at least has an idea of what the team should play like, and he is committed to it, while Menezes just after the 1st game was already changing the outlay.

Despite all of Mano's flaws, I think he does have a clear idea of what he is trying to do, the problem is that it isn't easy. In fact, he took the hardest road possible. He could be fielding a squad and using tactics similar to Dunga's, and in that he'd probably be getting better results, but he is trying to go for a team playing with the ball, passing, dominating possession and creating good chances. Playing like the bigger side - something Dunga didn't do.
It'll take a while for it to start functioning properly. But he has to try it, because if he didn't, then all of you would be here criticizing Brazil for winning with ugly football.

You can't compare him to Argentina's coach who changed nothing from the first game. Wasn't he the one who almost ruled Tevez out of the Copa América, only to give in to pressure and call him up in the end? No personality.

I'm going to say this now, and I hope you don't get me wrong: the Copa América is a practicing tournament for Brazil. It is simply not our primary objective. Our objective is to be ready for the 2014 WC, which we must win since it'll be in Brazil. Period. What is most important for us that we can at least get some good tests, real training, and hopefully some decent performances towards the end of the tournament. And even if we can't get them, it won't be the end of the world for Brazil, and it shouldn't be for Mano, because he simply hasn't had enough time to accomplish any realistic thing. I applaud him for taking Robinho out, somebody had to have the guts to do it, that guy is overrated and hasn't made a truly good performance for our country since the WC. I don't know if Jadson was our best option, but he is more experienced than Lucas, and despite not having a great game, he did score our first goal, so no one can argue there.

Mano is doing the right thing by investing in Ganso, Neymar, and Pato now. This is Ganso's and Neymar's first time with Brazil, and they need to learn to deal with the pressure now rather than later. I shouldn't even mention the fact that Neymar has just come from an exhaustive semester leading Santos to two titles (one of them the biggest in South America), or the fact that Ganso came back from injury a few days before departing for Argentina. But you just can't expect them to be like they are at Santos, because they don't know the seleção players as well as they know the Peixe players yet, particularly Ganso, who despite not being at his best, had a better performance last night and showed why he's so precious to us with some fine passing.

Mano needs to find the fourth man. Will it be Lucas? I don't know, but I'm not sure he's mature enough. He does bring in some personality, and if not now, then perhaps in a couple of years, Neymar-Ganso-Lucas-Pato could be a sight to behold. How about Hulk? That's one option he should really consider, and one I'd approve of. Would it work? It has to be tried after this Copa.

He cannot be expected to call up Kaká, Ronaldinho, Fabiano, etc, people who most likely won't be at the World Cup. Like I said, this is practicing for us, we need to get a good chemistry going, so we need to invest in the players that might be there.

He's making a risky move when investing in people like André Santos, who are irregular, and imo not good enough for the seleção. Marcelo should be there, but really he most likely wouldn't have helped our poor defending last night. At least Mano stood his ground, and by doing so he could be signing his own death certificate, or leading us to glory. A coach has to be firm.

Another thing I don't like is T. Silva sending those long balls to Pato. What is that? They keep trying it, but I think we should play with the ball on the ground. With patience, like Brasil should play. Those long balls work in 2 out of 5 attempts.

Anyway. everyone here's criticized Mano for calling up Jadson and Fred, so now we've all gotten a slap on our faces.

Anyone who keeps criticizing Mano for playing Fred doesn't watch football. Everyone knows Fred = The New Pele.

omarish wrote:Anyone who keeps criticizing Mano for playing Fred doesn't watch football. Everyone knows Fred = The New Pele.

lol he might as well be

How many players is Argentina using from the Argentinian league? Especially players who are fairly new to the team?

Brasil has 10 players in thier squad with 10 or less caps at International level and 7 players directly from the Brasilian league. Not to mention a few of these inexperienced players actually starting.

In comparison Argentina has the likes of Messi plus only 7 players with 10 or less caps at International level and only one play still playing in Argentina.


Brasil are still expected to win of course but it is alot easier to see why they are struggling as they are essentially rebuilding.

Argentina really do not have any excuses....

Crimson wrote:Argentina really do not have any excuses....

Except ... Higuain not playing. The reason? Outshine Messi > Yellow card.

awalezelin wrote:

Lionel Messi wrote:

awalezelin wrote:if i not mistaken, this batista's tactic almost similar with the one he succesfully used at the 2008 olympic

but the different was, there are no riquelme around in this copa squad

Riquelme wasn't at the 2008 Olympics...

then, who captained that albiceleste squad?

in the semi, albiceleste won 3-0 vs brazil, aguero scored 2, who scored another one?

may be ghost, i guess....

:bball: :bball: :bball: :bball: :bball:

oh wait you're right he was there

Senor Penguin wrote:

Crimson wrote:Argentina really do not have any excuses....

Except ... Higuain not playing. The reason? Outshine Messi > Yellow card.

lmfao, when did Higuain ever outshine Messi?

They are both are idiots that dont have a clue tactically.

/thread

Lionel Messi wrote:

Senor Penguin wrote:

Crimson wrote:Argentina really do not have any excuses....

Except ... Higuain not playing. The reason? Outshine Messi > Yellow card.

lmfao, when did Higuain ever outshine Messi?

Argentina v Peru comes to mind to help Argentina to actually qualify for the World Cup 2010 since Messi was failing miserably in doing so lol

Just another example of Messi failing for Argentina

Crimson wrote:

Lionel Messi wrote:

Senor Penguin wrote:

Crimson wrote:Argentina really do not have any excuses....

Except ... Higuain not playing. The reason? Outshine Messi > Yellow card.

lmfao, when did Higuain ever outshine Messi?

Argentina v Peru comes to mind to help Argentina to actually qualify for the World Cup 2010 since Messi was failing miserably in doing so lol

Just another example of Messi failing for Argentina

LOL What did Higuain do? He got on the end of a good through ball by Aimar

Lionel Messi wrote:

Crimson wrote:

Lionel Messi wrote:

Senor Penguin wrote:

Crimson wrote:Argentina really do not have any excuses....

Except ... Higuain not playing. The reason? Outshine Messi > Yellow card.

lmfao, when did Higuain ever outshine Messi?

Argentina v Peru comes to mind to help Argentina to actually qualify for the World Cup 2010 since Messi was failing miserably in doing so lol

Just another example of Messi failing for Argentina

LOL What did Higuain do? He got on the end of a good through ball by Aimar

He did what he was supposed to do, save Argentina, score. Messi did none of them.

Mano is everything but a 'joga bonito' coach. He is also a pragmatist, wants stability and teamwork first. He's very diligent and methodical, and he is going in the right direction. People make a fuss about the defence being too weak, but when you think about it, Paraguays only chances resulted with goals, and they were bit of a fluke because of experienced, worldclass defenders' gaffes. The defence is good, just as Brazil's should be, not like Dunga's where everybody sits back, grinds and then counters.

The problem right now is the attack, it needs to build understanding and you need a lot at the mental side to beat ultradefensive teams, like experience, patience, intelligence. Thats why Brazil made progress with Elano and Fred entering (great moves by Mano btw). This is a new level for Neymar and Ganso, and even Pato and they will come stronger from it, but Brazil need to stick with the project.

Honestly, i think both sides are a bit of a mess.

Argentina is trying too hard to be Barca when they don't have the players on the pitch to do it = manager fail.

Brazil have strange non callups and way too young of a team. Completely lacks leadership. You cannot win with only young players. They should insert of veteran in the midfield or the attacking middle to help organize the plays. Right now, it looks like a a cluster-frack out there. I also feel that the roles on the team are not well defined = manager fail.

Batista is horrible. Mano is meh. Impressed by neither. They're being too drastic with their methods. There's no need with the talent and depth of these two countries.

this needs a bump. both failed with panache