Why Atletico's gameplan is something we need to figure out

Atletico and PSG did and have to me, done something fairly unique against us. Now, im no expert and some of the elements of what I have hear may be slightly off, im sure Diego Simone would find a few things he would correct. But the basic idea I think I have close to correct.

They have found a way to play 2 forwards without sacrificing the midfield against us. Man Utd tried and failed in this method in the 11' final, but today I believe Atletico for sure and based on last season PSG have found an ideal way to combat us without (crucial point) sacrificing themselves. Its a narrow and deep lying defence and midfield with two forwards who are willing to work fairly hard defensively. They do add in pressing, at goal kicks, deep throw in's and any loose passes from defence into fullbacks.

This is not to be confused with Madrid or Bayern's tactics vs us, they contain similar elements but there are some key differences.


First, here we have us in a typical set up we see when the ball is in defence.



As you can see, Pique on the ball and the opponent (lets call them Atleti) have formed a 4411 with a midfield very narrow and tight together. Their objective is to not allow passes directly into Messi or a dropping forward, in this case Alexis. While doing so, they have covered Busquets completely, not by 1, but 2 players. He has a striker who closes the angle for a pass from Pique, while behind him there is a second striker who plays in between Busquets and Xavi, ready to move to whoever. The space they give up is to Dani Alves, the other centerback and Jordi Alba. I will get to what happens when they receive a pass later.

Here, the ball changes from CB to CB. The shift is very easy.



Of course our usual moment is Iniesta dropping deep on his side where Xavi goes on. Dani Alves retreats while the ball isnt on his side and Alba goes on. Pedro comes off the wing, Alexis goes towards him where he could recieve a long diaongal pass.

Atleti simply have their SS and CF swap roles if needed, giving the same protection against Busquets, the next closest ball receiver in Iniesta and keeping that tight midfield to stop passes in between to Messi.

What this does, if force the first pass into the area of the most space. The leftback (or the rightback if the first image is followed and Pique goes directly to Alves instead of across to Mascherano).



They are begging us to run down the flank with the ball, but Dani Alves doesnt do that, he always looks for the pass inside...which is Barca style common sense...because like we saw yesturday, nearly every cross we put into the box was easily collected. They know and we know, when it goes out wide, its a farce, we dont want to attack down there. Its even worse on the right side, because of Xavi's more conservative positioning (deeper than we see Iniesta in relation to Alba here) we often see once the ball goes out to Dani Alves he is highly dependant on Messi coming over to link with him. If Messi doesnt move to that position, he is completely isolated.

Once the ball goes inside to Iniesta here, its key to note the midfield block remains tight and compact. They will allow us to pass across the midfield half way line area, from side to side, our players are too good and trying to pressure us that high up the pitch can lead to mixed results. But most of all, its energy draining. If they can win the ball, of course they will, but keeping tight midfield is more important to stop passes into Messi in between the lines. Usually what we see is Messi dropping deep to get involved and us playing most in front of them.



A feature you notice over and over again is the midfield, close together, allowing the ball in front of them and giving great protection to the defence.

We had no real answer to this last season and we again look to have no answer this season. The goal we scored was pretty un-Barca like (a cross and header for Neymar) and you wonder how repeatable this is.

For me, we have to overcome this tactically. Because if not, we are going to struggle most times we come up against this tactic if the opponent have good enough players.

Perhaps its by playing with a 9 and Messi behind, or Messi as a 9 and Cesc behind. I dont have time to draw out my idea, so you guys feel free to weigh in.

not trying to oversimplify anything but don't you think that the dive in our mids form has something to do with this? 2009 or 2011 xavi and iniesta wouldn't have found it that dificult to boss this midfield I think.
I might be wrong, but still

very detailed explanation...liked it....
what surprised me most, is the their first two line,just as it is in your all 3 pictures, were so composed all the time. At first i thought it will loosen as time goes on and players get tired. But it basically never happened. These two line played as a group deep in their region and our players were wandering inside the group. Yet when any of our player say messi recieves the ball they did two things so fast that i surprised. One is to force the player recieving tha ball and closing all his options for forward pass. In other words, they forced us to play similar way all the time ,like useless crosses or early crosses, directionless long ball.
PSG did it last year??? but i am sure Simeone executed it better than any previous examples.

billy_gr wrote:not trying to oversimplify anything but don't you think that the dive in our mids form has something to do with this? 2009 or 2011 xavi and iniesta wouldn't have found it that dificult to boss this midfield I think.
I might be wrong, but still

Maybe, but last season Iniesta was better than ever so im not so sure of that.

Also, usually our midfield are outnumbering the opponant, but if its equal numercially they still dominate. But at times likes 4 v 2 for our midfielders now.

In 09 teams played us on even terms in most games, they didnt come up with such measures of dominating space.

neuro11 wrote:very detailed explanation...liked it....
what surprised me most, is the their first two line,just  as it is in your all 3 pictures, were so composed all the time. At first i thought it will loosen as time goes on and players get tired. But it basically never happened. These two line played as a group deep in their region and our players were wandering inside the group. Yet when any of our player say messi recieves the ball they did two things so fast that i surprised. One is to force the player recieving tha ball  and closing all his options for forward pass. In other words, they forced us to play similar way all the time ,like useless crosses or early crosses, directionless long ball.
PSG did it last year??? but i am sure Simeone executed it better than any previous examples.

Indeed. I think we didnt loosen them up as you say because of Simone's subs. He was quick to replay a tiring Arda and Deigo Costa, both of them had tough jobs to do.

Also we have to make that midfield line to move more to fatigue them, the way it was yesturday the two defensive midfielders didnt really have to move too much because of all the work the 2 wide players and 2 forward did.

PSG did similar last year, I think a difference with them was they focused their counter attacks on our right, because Pastore and Lavezzi naturally drift that side of the pitch. Meanwhile Atletico seemed to just outright target Alba.

But yeah, I feel like Simone does it better. For PSG, they relied on Thiago Silva having a great individual game, Atletico did not such thing with any one player...perhaps Costa for the counter attack, but in the defence phase no.

I agree with your reading dani. To me it seems like there are two problems: the double marking of Busquets and the deep defending without spaces forces us to attack through the wings. Walk me through the motions, what would be the disadvantages of getting Xavi to drop a little back deeper and give Pique/Masch another passing option and also play a 9 (impossible now that we no longer have Villa) with Messi behind? If teams just cede control of the ball to us, do we even need midfield superiority anymore?

Also worrying is that PSG did this so effectively, and now their coach is at Madrid. Although I don't see Khedira/Casemiro/Ilarra being able to pull a Thiago Motta on us.

Well, if Xavi is deeper he has more ground to cover forward if the ball gets out to Dani Alves or even Alexis. Xavi is usually the safety ball back if they get isolated/in trouble. With him even deeper they become more isolated.


Also, if Xavi has the ball in that deep position, what have we really gained? Of course a better passer than Pique, but what options does he have?




At first I thought, having Xavi drop even deeper might cause the midfield from moving, but I come to the conclusion that they wont go and chase him, they will just leave Busquets free that deep and one of the forwards would come over to Xavi.

And here I think is the isolation that it would cause, if a pass made it to Alexis.



We have a risky ball square to Messi, which if intercepted launches a dangerous counter for them. Alexis probably doesnt have the ability to find Pedro if he makes a diagonal run to goal and even if he did, its an unlikely ball. So Alexis of course, will pass it backwards to Dani Alves.

I do think playing a 9 might give us something different, it might cause some space in between the lines.

Lets say we played my usually hated 4231, Messi, Cesc and Pedro/Neymar/Tello in the 3 with Alexis as the "1"



To me, this seems a little more dangerous.

Messi will always attraction the eyes of at least 2 midfields 1 centerback. With his range of passing, he has Cesc possibly and perhaps Alexis if he makes a good run. Pedro on a diagonal is still a difficult ball but for sure a more makeable pass than Alexis in this position.

Plus we could see the overlap devolping here as Pedro comes either towards the ball or makes a run into the box and Messi can go wide to Alba who is already running. Then Messi gets into the box, with Pedro, Alexis and Cesc for a possible low cut back.


In terms of Carlo being at Madrid, I actually think he could do it with the midfielders you named. I think Casemiro (though still young) with Khedira or Irra have the profile. If he uses Modric then no, he it wont work. But saying this, Motta and Beckham managed it.

The key to the entire thing to me is the left and right mids..for Atleti, Koke and Arda..two guys who really work hard. Then replaced them with Rodriquez and Leo Baptista who did the exact same thing.

Carlo at Madrid seems like we wont be using Di Maria much..so he is going to ask Isco, Ozil and Bale to sacrifice like this? Not impossible, but not something I am very worried about just yet.

completely agree, Xavi playing little deeper will only make another player isolated. Xavi will not drag any additional player, their two forwards are always there roaming around and because their idea is not possession rather counter they certainly will not leave a player following him. infact iniesta did it several times, while Xavi was in the mid iniesta came to collect the bal but he passed the midline easily and made some dioagonal ball to Alexis which were always useless.
Well, what is our first objective in this case?? Making space i guess. But if our players roam inside their group it will never be created.
I want to make an interesting suggession which might look little funny though.What if we do a counter to their tactic. like making two line which will slide together always. The first with Neymar,Cesc, Alexis the second line with Adriano, Xavi/Iniesta,Alves and Messi the only player inside their zone. This two line will slide together forward and back.
Now when we have possession and they stay deep in their zone, we can slide back a little rather than xavi/iniesta coming alone and keep possession. this must create space(by nature it has to be) between their two lines that can be exposed by the likes of Messi and Neymar.
And i did not mention pedro and alba because i will never play such team with such two players....

The Franchise wrote:Well, if Xavi is deeper he has more ground to cover forward if the ball gets out to Dani Alves or even Alexis. Xavi is usually the safety ball back if they get isolated/in trouble. With him even deeper they become more isolated.


Also, if Xavi has the ball in that deep position, what have we really gained? Of course a better passer than Pique, but what options does he have?




At first I thought, having Xavi drop even deeper might cause the midfield from moving, but I come to the conclusion that they wont go and chase him, they will just leave Busquets free that deep and one of the forwards would come over to Xavi.

And here I think is the isolation that it would cause, if a pass made it to Alexis.



We have a risky ball square to Messi, which if intercepted launches a dangerous counter for them. Alexis probably doesnt have the ability to find Pedro if he makes a diagonal run to goal and even if he did, its an unlikely ball. So Alexis of course, will pass it backwards to Dani Alves.

I do think playing a 9 might give us something different, it might cause some space in between the lines.

Lets say we played my usually hated 4231, Messi, Cesc and Pedro/Neymar/Tello in the 3 with Alexis as the "1"



To me, this seems a little more dangerous.

Messi will always attraction the eyes of at least 2 midfields 1 centerback. With his range of passing, he has Cesc possibly and perhaps Alexis if he makes a good run. Pedro on a diagonal is still a difficult ball but for sure a more makeable pass than Alexis in this position.

Plus we could see the overlap devolping here as Pedro comes either towards the ball or makes a run into the box and Messi can go wide to Alba who is already running. Then Messi gets into the box, with Pedro, Alexis and Cesc for a possible low cut back.


In terms of Carlo being at Madrid, I actually think he could do it with the midfielders you named. I think Casemiro (though still young) with Khedira or Irra have the profile. If he uses Modric then no, he it wont work. But saying this, Motta and Beckham managed it.

The key to the entire thing to me is the left and right mids..for Atleti, Koke and Arda..two guys who really work hard. Then replaced them with Rodriquez and Leo Baptista who did the exact same thing.

Carlo at Madrid seems like we wont be using Di Maria much..so he is going to ask Isco, Ozil and Bale to sacrifice like this? Not impossible, but not something I am very worried about just yet.

Great post dani and the opening one.I see one problem.Will Messi make the run into the box?
I have mentioned many times that Messi offers very little positive movement in offense nowadays.He is always coming towards the ball.The only positive movement he makes is when the FB has the ball and he makes a run to the edge of the box where it is free.
Take yesterday's game for example.Xavi plays in Alves in the 25th min on the right.Alves puts in a delightful ball.Alexis just misses the header.Had Messi followed up it would have been a simple tap in.He was late.Two minutes later.Alexis get to the byline,crosses.Xavi is thr,Messi is at the edge of the box.
But overall I agree that a different approach might be needed.

Thank you for the response, very informative

Carlo at Madrid seems like we wont be using Di Maria much..so he is going to ask Isco, Ozil and Bale to sacrifice like this? Not impossible, but not something I am very worried about just yet.

If Pastore did this effectively I'm sure Oezil and Isco can as well. Bale's workrate is not bad at all and I do think Carlo is considering Di Maria as an option.

@Alex

Good question, I dont know the answer. I would hope so. Once that ball is played out to Alba, the more numbers to flood the box the better. But even if he doesnt, playing Cesc, a 9 and another forward you would imagine he will be able to play more in between the lines than in front of them.

@ BC

True, its a fair point.

You covered it a bit in your post above about Cesc and a 4-2-3-1...I'm curious as to what you would personally do to combat this system Atletico Madrid are playing and what you think of Cesc playing in these games, what he offers, and if starting him is a positive move.

Alex's mention of Messi's lack of positive movement is particularly something I've noticed.

For some reason I feel like having a #9 would be useful in these games. Our movement up front was absolutely dire.

I think its less about Cesc and or even Alexis as a 9, but more about having someone in these roles because I feel we need to stop playing in front of these teams and play in between them.

To play in between them with our usual 433, we really have to be on point with the ball circulation and playing it accurately and quickly 1-2 touches in midfield and no more than 1 touch in the attacking third.

A part of some of the issues is the way Atleti set up was it forced Pedro and Alexis to become more creative, which is not really what they are in the team for.

If you play with a 9, you constantly have someone ready to make a run in behind. That gives the CB's a distraction, something they constantly check on.

When we dont play with a 9, those CB's become like 2 extra sweepers if you will, so once Messi, Iniesta or one of the wingers beat a man, they can come into play defensively. Out extra players are behind those players.

If you play a 9 aswell as Cesc as a 10, if Messi beats someone, there are 2 options to play a pass to, play a 1-2 with or simply keep the CB's in place for longer, giving him space.

The negative you worry about is if Atleti start pressing, Cesc cant do his dissapearing act of hiding behind markers.

Also, you would worry about the pressing in such a system with Messi a make shift rightwinger/right forward.

Are we going to ask Alexis to play as a 9 in attack and then on top of that go chase the leftback up the pitch? A ton of work.

I can't really recommend this. There is too much space behind Alves for a quick LM to exploit and we've all seen Piqué's impression of RB.



Also Cesc in there won't have any room to breathe. He'll lose the ball more often than not.

Not matter what system we play, Dani Alves is going to leave that space open. We are always going to rely on our pressing game and his recovery ability. Always have done regardless of the formation.

Besides, thats 70m of ground that LM is covering, 4, 5 of those runs without getting a good pass or simply getting caught up by Dani Alves (Arda for example is no speed demon), that player will be tired and at that point demoralized.


And Cesc in there and not touching the ball is much better than noone being there and them being free to overload on Messi surely?

And are we really going to be afraid to lose the ball in the attacking third over passing across the pitch in front of the opponant?

Once Messi has the ball in this position, he is going to attract 2-3 players, that alone will give Cesc space to play a 1 or 2 touch pass.

Nice Dani, and I agree withaa lot of it. Although I think I'll say of cos a lot of teams try to play this vs us for a long time now. The key is if the team actually have the ability, the stamina, the hunger to press us and discipline and cohesion enough to stay intact defensively AND to have the techinque, speed and ability to counter quickly. Bayern certainly did have all that and thats why it worked. Some teams manage some aspects to varying degrees and troubled us. I think as time pass more n more teams learn and catch up. Back with Mou's Inter they parked the same formation with 4-4-1 or 4-5-0 with the 10 men and countered successfully with just freakin Milito when they had Snejider's pinpoint long passes to him

Atletico has Koke and Turan who are so good and their general play and other factors are there. They outplayed us in the first half. But I think as the second half went out they tired and we got back into it and dominated.

I have no idea whats the counter or evolution Barca need to beat this tactically.... I think these days everybody sort of knows each otehrs game so much its hard. The difference could be the hunger, fitness and performance of the two teams on the night.

What impressed me most is Tata's brave decisions though, he takes off Messi at HT, although not sure if injury. But it was clear Atletico had a gameplan to nullify him so to bring in Cesc for him was a good move under the circumstance but it took guts!

On the whole,I think its important to realize that when a very good team plays that deep and organized,we arent going to create a lot of chances.At best,we will create 3,4 clear chances.
I think the key is to remain patient and wait for an opening.That means Messi stays between the lines and not coming looking for the ball.Now with the midfield staying narrow and preventing him from getting the ball,he might not see the ball as much as he likes.Might go few minutes without touching the ball.But our midfield is good enough to get him the ball eventually in between the lines and he has to stay there.Thats when he can do maximum damage.

The Franchise wrote:Not matter what system we play, Dani Alves is going to leave that space open. We are always going to rely on our pressing game and his recovery ability. Always have done regardless of the formation.

Would you consider this a risk worth taking? I personally won't.

The Franchise wrote:Besides, thats 70m of ground that LM is covering, 4, 5 of those runs without getting a good pass or simply getting caught up by Dani Alves (Arda for example is no speed demon), that player will be tired and at that point demoralized.

I was actually thinking a faster, more athletic player which frankly most top teams have (Ribéry, Bale, Willian, Fernandinho, etc). To be honest Alves has to do much more work than this hypothetical LM.

The Franchise wrote:And Cesc in there and not touching the ball is much better than noone being there and them being free to overload on Messi surely?

And are we really going to be afraid to lose the ball in the attacking third over passing across the pitch in front of the opponant?

Once Messi has the ball in this position, he is going to attract 2-3 players, that alone will give Cesc space to play a 1 or 2 touch pass.

My problem isn't really so much the tactics here than the player. Someone like Özil would do very well in the position but not only Fàbregas chokes under pressure, he is not really the type who is known for one-touch play. I think he thrives more when he has time on the ball.

Well against a team we struggle to break down, yes I would.

Sure against those athletic and great players, but Dani Alves is generally more conservative against those big names dont you agree?

And while I generally agree with you about Cesc, I think even if he messes up with a bad touch, at least we have that distraction of a player there. Right now, we play in front of Atletico and its easy for them.

Play Messi and Neymar on the wings, long diagonal balls to them and make them beat their man fast on the one on one before a 2vs1 come. Try crossing, shooting or passing back for a shot.
I know it seems simple, but I read Dani's proposal and I don't see much improvement positionally.

Well tbh I was only trying to come up with an idea within our current system and ideas.

Long diagonals are sometimes part of that, but never as primary plan.

I dont disagree with our idea, its very reasonable, Im just quite sure it wont ever happen.

And the full back bombing fast when the winger gets the ball.

I don't really see how you can make space vs this defensive set ups if your players are not at 100% as they clearly are not now. We used to be able to break 9 out of 10 of this setups with our standard gameplan, but now....