I am glad team football is back on the map

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Post by Mr Nick09 Wed May 01, 2013 11:37 pm

One of the main differences between this Bayern and Dortmund vs the spanish teams, is the fact that they have developped pure football unit, as opposed to playing to cater their best player. for the past 3-4 years we have seen the likes of Ronaldo and Messi going toe to toe so much that it almost became a caricature of footy.

Kind of glad we are done with that indivudual vision of the game. Bayern and Dortmund doing a great service to football. Bayern winning without Kroos, and even yesterday in the Bernabeu, Dortmund controlled things without gotze.

Having CR meant nothing for Madrid for example as a whole in that game. Messi is bit more special because he can do it alone, but barca without him did crumble as expected. Although Barca used to be a lot better collectively.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed May 01, 2013 11:41 pm

Was going to make a thread like this, completely agree with every word.

The mere fact you can go through out both Bayern's and Dortmund's team and can't name any outstanding individuals but just an outstanding team.

I'm going to sound like a nostalgic twat, but again this is how football used to be it was always how the teams work as a unit and even if they get injuries to their best players it wouldn't matter.

I would hope teams learn a bit from Dortmund and Bayern and we see more team football and less individualism.

Of course its great to see great individuals but to rely upon it is a poison.
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Post by jibers Wed May 01, 2013 11:43 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Was going to make a thread like this, completely agree with every word.

The mere fact you can go through out both Bayern's and Dortmund's team and can't name any outstanding individuals but just an outstanding team.

I'm going to sound like a nostalgic twat, but again this is how football used to be it was always how the teams work as a unit and even if they get injuries to their best players it wouldn't matter.

I would hope teams learn a bit from Dortmund and Bayern and we see more team football and less individualism.

Of course its great to see great individuals but to rely upon it is a poison.

Agreed. Mole is back as my favourite poster ffs Proud
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Post by RedOranje Wed May 01, 2013 11:45 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Was going to make a thread like this, completely agree with every word.

The mere fact you can go through out both Bayern's and Dortmund's team and can't name any outstanding individuals but just an outstanding team.

I'm going to sound like a nostalgic twat, but again this is how football used to be it was always how the teams work as a unit and even if they get injuries to their best players it wouldn't matter.

I would hope teams learn a bit from Dortmund and Bayern and we see more team football and less individualism.

Of course its great to see great individuals but to rely upon it is a poison.

That's not quite accurate. You can name multiple outstanding individuals within both club's first XI's... they just so happen to also be willing to work as part of great teams with other top individual talents. Your intent may have been correct but the wording let you down...
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed May 01, 2013 11:48 pm

Yeah, thanks Red my wording lets me down a lot. Sad
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Post by Bellabong Wed May 01, 2013 11:57 pm

#teamgeist

#Bundeslegacy

I think it helps that the German teams are balanced, Madrid and Barca are very top-heavy and as such kinda need to focus their tactics around that and when they come up against stubborn opponents their plan A isn't all-conquering anymore.

Don't forget that this is the same Dortmund from last year that was undone by individual mistakes and not a system failure like Barca this year.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Thu May 02, 2013 12:07 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Was going to make a thread like this, completely agree with every word.

The mere fact you can go through out both Bayern's and Dortmund's team and can't name any outstanding individuals but just an outstanding team.

I'm going to sound like a nostalgic twat, but again this is how football used to be it was always how the teams work as a unit and even if they get injuries to their best players it wouldn't matter.

I would hope teams learn a bit from Dortmund and Bayern and we see more team football and less individualism.

Of course its great to see great individuals but to rely upon it is a poison.

i think it also serves a lesson to a lot of fans nowadays. Not trying to patronize anyone but there are too many people out there that think having CR or Messi for that matter, is enough to win trophies

Pep built an amazing barca team, and now people are going to understand why he was so important as a coach (at least, those who didnt). That team was collective perfected to serve a super player. Now that he isnt there anymore, the idea is fading away, Messi cant bail you out all day everyday.

The individuals that are standing out in dortmund today for example, do so because the collective allow them to express themselves. If you take those players out of that system and throw them in teams where team concepts arent as developed, they will not look as good. But it doesnt mean they are bad players, on the contrary. We are expecting too much from star players nowadays, as if they are supposed to do it all by themselves on a single run or dribble or long shot.

It makes you value good coaching even more.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 02, 2013 12:14 am

Tbh seeing our players being dragged into relegation due to awful coaching and tactics has made me appreciate how important coaching and tactics are.

But seeing Bayern decimate Barca and Dortmund against Madrid in the first leg just amplify's it.

Its a big thing in England too, all you hear is we need more players this and that, we have had these injuries to these key players and when things go wrong English coaches buy their way out of it.

Screams of coaching incompetence, you would hope this might teach a lesson to people.
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Post by Bellabong Thu May 02, 2013 12:15 am

Who else?

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Post by windkick Thu May 02, 2013 12:21 am

Mr Nick09 wrote:One of the main differences between this Bayern and Dortmund vs the spanish teams, is the fact that they have developped pure football unit, as opposed to playing to cater their best player. for the past 3-4 years we have seen the likes of Ronaldo and Messi going toe to toe so much that it almost became a caricature of footy.

Kind of glad we are done with that indivudual vision of the game. Bayern and Dortmund doing a great service to football. Bayern winning without Kroos, and even yesterday in the Bernabeu, Dortmund controlled things without gotze.

Having CR meant nothing for Madrid for example as a whole in that game. Messi is bit more special because he can do it alone, but barca without him did crumble as expected. Although Barca used to be a lot better collectively.


This season when Pedro was off form, Alexis obvioulsy sucked and Villa being hot and cold...we HAD to relay on Messi. Who wouldn't

But don't make it seem like all of a sudden Barca didn't play true team ball during it's 4 year reign with Pep. It's not like Bayern and Dortmund are introducing it, it's something Barca that aside the injuries and fall form (going back and forth through managers) this year, barca has been doing it. For us it was quite common for the entire team to lead up to a play.
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Post by Milan31 Thu May 02, 2013 12:22 am

Phritz wrote:Who else?


Proud :bow:
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Post by windkick Thu May 02, 2013 12:24 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Was going to make a thread like this, completely agree with every word.

The mere fact you can go through out both Bayern's and Dortmund's team and can't name any outstanding individuals but just an outstanding team.

I'm going to sound like a nostalgic twat, but again this is how football used to be it was always how the teams work as a unit and even if they get injuries to their best players it wouldn't matter.

I would hope teams learn a bit from Dortmund and Bayern and we see more team football and less individualism.

Of course its great to see great individuals but to rely upon it is a poison.

I usually agree with everything you say, but Bayern is full of superstars. Dont make it seem like you cant name a single outstanding individual all of a sudden. It's not like we got raped by FC Augsburg lol

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 02, 2013 12:28 am

windkick wrote:
Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Was going to make a thread like this, completely agree with every word.

The mere fact you can go through out both Bayern's and Dortmund's team and can't name any outstanding individuals but just an outstanding team.

I'm going to sound like a nostalgic twat, but again this is how football used to be it was always how the teams work as a unit and even if they get injuries to their best players it wouldn't matter.

I would hope teams learn a bit from Dortmund and Bayern and we see more team football and less individualism.

Of course its great to see great individuals but to rely upon it is a poison.

I usually agree with everything you say, but Bayern is full of superstars. Dont make it seem like you cant name a single outstanding individual all of a sudden. It's not like we got raped by FC Augsburg lol


Yeah i said afterwards i worded it incorrectly....

Basically Red's response to me was what i meant to say but i didn't word it right.

Apologies.
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Post by Lex Thu May 02, 2013 12:31 am

Beautiful football rose from the ashes this past week/fortnight
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Post by Mr Nick09 Thu May 02, 2013 12:31 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Tbh seeing our players being dragged into relegation due to awful coaching and tactics has made me appreciate how important coaching and tactics are.

But seeing Bayern decimate Barca and Dortmund against Madrid in the first leg just amplify's it.

Its a big thing in England too, all you hear is we need more players this and that, we have had these injuries to these key players and when things go wrong English coaches buy their way out of it.

Screams of coaching incompetence, you would hope this might teach a lesson to people.

Exactly the kind of ideas i fought against for the past 3 years. How come that the supposed best manager in the world, with the supposed best player in the world, get humbled by the lowly Dortmund with their little budget? simple, Superior coaching and superior team concept. I just wish people can learn from these kind of experience.

tactical discipline is the name of the game, finding players that can maximize that output is the most important thing in this game. I am pretty sure that if we investigate all the great teams of the past couple decades, we will find supreme collectives, not teams being dragged by a single player, that never happens.

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Post by Swanhends Thu May 02, 2013 12:34 am

Phritz wrote:Who else?


Thats awesome.
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Post by jibers Thu May 02, 2013 12:35 am

Mr Nick09 wrote:
Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Tbh seeing our players being dragged into relegation due to awful coaching and tactics has made me appreciate how important coaching and tactics are.

But seeing Bayern decimate Barca and Dortmund against Madrid in the first leg just amplify's it.

Its a big thing in England too, all you hear is we need more players this and that, we have had these injuries to these key players and when things go wrong English coaches buy their way out of it.

Screams of coaching incompetence, you would hope this might teach a lesson to people.

Exactly the kind of ideas i fought against for the past 3 years. How come that the supposed best manager in the world, with the supposed best player in the world, get humbled by the lowly Dortmund with their little budget? simple, Superior coaching and superior team concept. I just wish people can learn from these kind of experience.

tactical discipline is the name of the game, finding players that can maximize that output is the most important thing in this game. I am pretty sure that if we investigate all the great teams of the past couple decades, we will find supreme collectives, not teams being dragged by a single player, that never happens.


Agreed 100%
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Post by jibers Thu May 02, 2013 12:35 am

Phritz wrote:Who else?


10% lol. Great respect but that's BS
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Post by Mr Nick09 Thu May 02, 2013 12:43 am

windkick wrote:
Mr Nick09 wrote:One of the main differences between this Bayern and Dortmund vs the spanish teams, is the fact that they have developped pure football unit, as opposed to playing to cater their best player. for the past 3-4 years we have seen the likes of Ronaldo and Messi going toe to toe so much that it almost became a caricature of footy.

Kind of glad we are done with that indivudual vision of the game. Bayern and Dortmund doing a great service to football. Bayern winning without Kroos, and even yesterday in the Bernabeu, Dortmund controlled things without gotze.

Having CR meant nothing for Madrid for example as a whole in that game. Messi is bit more special because he can do it alone, but barca without him did crumble as expected. Although Barca used to be a lot better collectively.


This season when Pedro was off form, Alexis obvioulsy sucked and Villa being hot and cold...we HAD to relay on Messi. Who wouldn't

But don't make it seem like all of a sudden Barca didn't play true team ball during it's 4 year reign with Pep. It's not like Bayern and Dortmund are introducing it, it's something Barca that aside the injuries and fall form (going back and forth through managers) this year, barca has been doing it. For us it was quite common for the entire team to lead up to a play.
yeah i said that Barcelona under Guardiola epitomized this idea of team concept, although with messi being there, not a lot of people understood how important guardiola was for barca, but now they do. I am simply suggesting that your team has turned into a caricature of what it used to be, putting it all in messi's hands to win now, and without him you are like lost lambs out there. This barca team are a joke compared to how good they were 2 years ago, the discipline is gone, the work off the ball is gone, and you getting pummeled by madrid and bayern this season is a result. Surely, you set the standard so high that poor 2013 barca still better than 95% teams in europe. Against the elite tho, it doesnt cut it so easily, specially without Messi.
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