Re: Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

by Guest Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:09 am

I think you're missing the point, Zealous. It should also be mentioned that jibbers is making a case that the league that CR is playing in does not compare to those leagues of the late 80's and 90's - are you denying that much. You have failed to address those parts of the post and opted to act as if jibbers was comparing players from past eras. That is mighty convenient of you...

I will say this one last time, there is a big difference between shooting from distance and having a consistent shot from distance. When you average 7 shots per game for the past 3 seasons, you should be expected to score some screamers. Also, as jibbers already mentioned, players these days have the luxury of shooting with a different ball. But go ahead, keep ignoring those points.

by FennecFox7 Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:30 am

ranDOM 10 wrote:I think you're missing the point, Zealous. It should also be mentioned that jibbers is making a case that the league that CR is playing in does not compare to those leagues of the late 80's and 90's - are you denying that much..

Jiopsi already proved that point wrong

ranDOM 10 wrote:

I will say this one last time, there is a big difference between shooting from distance and having a consistent shot from distance. When you average 7 shots per game for the past 3 seasons, you should be expected to score some screamers. Also, as jibbers already mentioned, players these days have the luxury of shooting with a different ball. But go ahead, keep ignoring those points.

Lol.. like R9 didn't take shots. I mean, every shot he took went in Laughing

. Who scores more goals? the person who takes more shots.. wow crazy logic

Comparing the ball type? please, R9 played only 10-12 years ago (in his prime)... we weren't playing with rocks. He had 2 amazing seasons, one with inter and one with barca

With brazil he was great.. but lets be honest. Should I really list the players he was surrounded with?

As much as I admire the brazillian ronaldo, its sad how some of you put ronaldo down with these dumb arguments Laughing

. At least say something like, he wasn't a complete forward, he barely scores.. oh wait, you can't so you nitpick..Kind of the same way people put messi down for players that can't even be compared to him..

by Guest Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:40 am

Do you understand the meaning of efficiency? Where did I say that R9 did not take shots? I am only making the claim that CR7 has the green light to shoot when he wants and I believe R9 was smarter about picking his moments. Is my logic that crazy? Does CR7 not shoot from distance more than your average player?

Other points you failed to address:

CR7 has his teams play for him and he diminishes other players. He is given a free role and can play where ever his heart desires - I don't know exactly how R9 was treated in this aspect, but I don't believe he had such a luxury.

You also have failed to address his injuries and make the claim he had 2 great seasons, I won't say anymore about that...please so back and refer to Jibers post.

You came into this thread with a good attitude, but now that some don't agree with you, you have changed your tune. Sorry that I don't agree with you, but that is just life, little buddy. I am not diminishing CR7, however I will not sit around and let people make these hilarious claims about CR7 having a better shot because be has scored more shots from distance. Football is the ultimate team sport and I don't believe CR7 understands that. Even if he is becoming better about it more recently, I saw him more in the past and have witnessed just how greedy/foolish he can be, e.g., take 30 yard bullets when he can play a simple pass.

Sure I dislike CR7, but that only has to do with the type of teammate he is. I can recognize his greatness as a player, but some of y'all fail to recognize the reasoning behind some of that and keep mentioning these 50 goal seasons.

by The Franchise Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:33 am

Jiopsi proved that La Liga now isnt easier to score in than Serie A back in the day?

Yeah, I dont remember that happening most probably because its simply not true.

by calmman Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:51 am

The Ostracised One wrote:Okay I have seen enough nonsense posted. CR7 better than R9, CR7 better than van Basten

and you are using CR7's goal ratio now to compare it to theirs

First of all, comparing this iteration of La Liga to the serie A that both those players played in quite frankly an embarrassment. You can sort of guage how little football people have watched for MvB's and Ronaldo's league to be compared. There is no comparison. Serie A in the late 80s and 90s was the hardest league football I have ever seen and quite possibly the hardest in football history. To give you some persepctive, Ian Rush was playing for the great Liverpool side, he moved to Juventus and scored 7 goals in 29 games in Serie A. Did he decline? Nope Ian Rush said that finding space was nigh on impossible.

Now we go to van Basten. MVB has the best movement I have ever seen a forward have. Add to the fact that MVB was incredible under Cruyff, so much so that his sale to Milan is the reason Cruyff quit Ajax and set about reimaging Barcelona. Even Rijkaard, one of the best footballers ever said that Serie A was harder than the European cup. That should you give you some indication of what I am trying to say.

Ronaldo benefits from having other plays suffer. Same thing at United. Rooney and Tevez had to change their game to enable Ronaldo's. Same thing is happening at RM. Benzema and Higuain are suffering constantly ffs. Ronaldo isn't a winger or striker, he does whatever the hell he wants. MVB was part of Sacchis system and had to play with the collective. He played with a team that effectively rendered the sweeper position obsolete. The spaces for strikers and spaces between the lines back then was so little that it makes the spaces afforded to forwards today embarrassing. Add to the fact that different footballs were used and that the offside rule has changed to favour attackers now you will see why.

Tactically, there is no comparison in what they had to face. For people to come out here and have the audacity to claim he is better tha MVB, please gtfo. I am tired of reading BS in this forum from people that have got as much footballing knowledge as a baked potato. For MVB to have even accumulated that many goals should be used as an arguement for him being a superior player to Ronaldo, not worse. His movement was ridiculous. As I've said he has arguably the best movement I have ever seen.

Now I have ranted about such a shameful comparison unto the thread topic. Ronaldo is better than CR7. Pure and simple. The teams that Ronaldo has played in have been superior to any team R9 has played in his career. R9 was never afforded the luxury of playing the fantasisti role that Ronaldo is playing. At Barcelona we all saw what R9 was capable of. Even at Inter the man was a beast. Once again he played in a league where trequartistas where shouldering the creative burden and the mf areas where becoming cul da sacs and the amouto fo service he got compared to Ronaldo is really not comparable to be honest. Go and read up what I wrote in the trequartista thread to gain some damn footballing info. Ronaldo despite only playing 19 league games scored 14 goals. He was injured for the bulk of that season as well. Again the spaces that forwards had to operate in where compressed to a level that would embarrass forwards today. That is why trequartista in the 90s was the hardest position to play and because of that R9 had to essentially drop deep to get the ball as most fantasistsis where hounded by 2 to 3 medianos (Italian for defensive mf).So for Ronaldo to get service as regularly as CR7, it was not possibke. Add to the fact that this was the period of tactical swansong in Serie A, then yoiu get the full picture. R9 was stronger, better at pasisng, more clinical, faster, required less space to operate and associated better with teamates.Most importantly, his presence on the pitch did not require other players to sacrifice their positions and roles. Ronaldo would never have survived under coaches like Sacchi, Michels, Lippi or Lobanovskyi, coaches that placed emphasis on the collective rather than specialists, which Calmanaldo definately is. Please I implore anyone even making these daft comparisons to go and watch at least 70+ games of either of these players.

The space that CR7 gets to run and be one on one with opposition in La liga is just quite frankly a joke compared to R9, who even when Inter countered, still had multiple players that foulded him and tried to njure him. CR7 gets nowhere near the same treatment, physically or tactically.

Please!!

Calm down first of all. You are not arguing with a little boy here. I did not start watching soccer last year.

R9 played most of his career in La Liga not Serie A so stop using the super-amazing Italian defenses as an excuse.

And in La Liga, he played with three world player of the year winners. Ronaldo only plays with one (Kaka) and he's a sub.

And not once, with those teamates, against those same La Liga defences, did he score 50 goals in one season! Not even at his peak in Barcelona. Not even in the inferior Dutch League.

The only reason you rate R9 over CR7 is playing style. You have basically chosen certain characteristics that you liked in R9 and have decided that these are the most important ones to be a great player.

E.g You have chosen creativity and team play. Well many can argue that Totti and Ibrahimovic are more creative than Messi. Does that mean they are better than him because of that one aspect?

And many people might say that Rooney is the best team player. He always tracks back to defend and will play any position required of him regardless of sacrifice. Let me see you ask Messi to spend a whole game defending! So I guess Rooney is better than him too since he beats him in team play right?

Every player has strengths and weaknesses. That is why it is better to judge the players on the results they produce. You can't just choose some characteristics and ignore others. Who is to decide which aspect is better than which?

And lastly, I know CR7 is not as great a team player, but it's bullsh*t that he brings his teammates down. Benzema and Higuan had their best goal scoring seasons last season and I remember a lot of their assists coming from CR7. If he was bad for the team, Alex Ferguson would have not fought to keep him. Remember how quickly he got rid of Beckham and Van Nistelrooy?

by Forza Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:20 am

Giggity5313 wrote:Jiopsi already proved that point wrong

Oh dear.

The Franchise wrote:Jiopsi proved that La Liga now isnt easier to score in than Serie A back in the day?

Yeah, I don't remember that happening most probably because its simply not true.

This. But not only this.

Let's examine how such a distorted view of football came into existence...

Oh yeah, someone tried to prove a point wrong with their opinion.

I must confess that I've been waiting for a while to find the perfect opportunity to quote THC's signature, and now is it:

"So many people don't understand the difference between opinions and facts. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts." - Goal Legacy in a nutshell

Problem question: Two football fans of rival teams walk into a bar and start talking about which of their teams is better. How many opinions could they have between them?

If you said 2, you're absolutely wrong. If you said 3, taking into account that the teams may be evenly matched, you're slightly less wrong.

That's because the possibilities really are endless. That's the correct answer.

Factually, one team must be better than the other (unless the teams are evenly matched), and this could be objectively determined when the teams play each other. However, the problem question was about the football fans who are talking with each other, not the factual superiority of either team.

Those two fans in the bar are not dealing with facts, nor are they dealing in a world of black and white answers. Their discussion is a subjective one, with a plethora of complex arguments and counter arguments available to each of them. Some of those arguments might even be contradictory to other arguments about why their team is better than the other. And even the non-contradictory arguments could be differentiated by how much one team is better than the other, for example (there are many other variables).

Ultimately, to bring this tangent back on point, those two fans in the bar are in the realm of opinion. Although it is tempting to further your argument by using language that creates a façade of fact, a la Fox News, the learned ones will see through it and cut you down.

Don't try to blur the lines. Instead, articulate your argument thoughtfully and clearly, that's where credit is due.

by Zealous Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:17 pm

The Franchise wrote:You and I been on here too long for you not to know stats mean totally nothing to me.

And the Ballon Dor, somehow even less so.

As I said, I do deny it, thats just my opinion. I dont care what people will think when he is retired, people (who to me are incredibly wrong) think he is already better than players he isnt and he isnt even retired. So what people think, I could care less about.

You can call it wrong all you want and like I said you're well within your rights to say Player X or Y are better but that doesn't change anything. CR's numbers are there for all to see and I know you don't like stats and I agree about the Balon D'Or thing but people in the future will use that when discussing him. Saying that people are wrong is cool and all but Ronaldo has has worked hard and is playing at an elite level very consistently people respond to that even if you don't (or won't as it were).

You may not like Ronaldo as a player and that's fine but he's been cutting the mustard for a while now so don't act all surprised when you see topics like this gain momentum eco smile

by Harmonica Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:20 pm

Actually Serie-A late 90's wasn't really harder to score than La Liga then and nowdays.

La Liga 96-97 GPG 2.75
Serie-A 97-98 GPG 2.73
Serie-A 98-99 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 99-00 GPG 2.50
Serie-A 00-01 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 01-02 GPG 2.63

La Liga 10-11 GPG 2.74
La Liga 11-12 GPG 2.76
LA Liga 12-13 GPG 2.85

You have to go early 90's and before when it was hard to score, GPG average in low two's.

by Zealous Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:31 pm

ranDOM 10 wrote:I think you're missing the point, Zealous. It should also be mentioned that jibbers is making a case that the league that CR is playing in does not compare to those leagues of the late 80's and 90's - are you denying that much. You have failed to address those parts of the post and opted to act as if jibbers was comparing players from past eras. That is mighty convenient of you...

I didn't fail to address anything because my point about comparing such things stand. The league comparison between different eras is subjective at best and even then there is no guarantee Ronaldo would not have succeeded in Seria A at the time given his skill sets.

ranDOM 10 wrote:I will say this one last time, there is a big difference between shooting from distance and having a consistent shot from distance. When you average 7 shots per game for the past 3 seasons, you should be expected to score some screamers. Also, as jibbers already mentioned, players these days have the luxury of shooting with a different ball. But go ahead, keep ignoring those points.

Ronaldo forces shots but he does so because he knows that it's a goal threat. This isn't baseball or free throw shooting, in football a goal is not a regular occurrence in tight games and the risk is worth the reward. Also the fact that Ronaldo can basically take shots at will is impressive in and of itself.

Also the ball being different isn't really much a factor when discussing the 90's as opposed to now. If it was the 50's 60's or even the 70's I'd agree with you but Roberto Carlos was already making the ball do some ridiculous stuff in the 90's.

Again I'm not saying Cristiano is better than anyone I've explained my stance regarding comparisons with past players. I just don't think it's an outrage any more to mention Cristiano when the established names are mentioned as well.

by Doc Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:14 pm

Ronaldo, to me, was definitely the better footballer. Not that Cristiano is some scrub but he just had more ability on the ball. Nothing shameful about that, Ronaldo was a magnificent player.

Funny how Cristiano always loses these debates. 50 goals for the past 3 seasons, each and still finds it difficult. I'm pretty sure if such things were happening, let's say, 10 years ago or in Serie A, I reckon thoughts might be a bit different.

by Arquitecto Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:30 pm

Harmonica wrote:Actually Serie-A late 90's wasn't really harder to score than La Liga then and nowdays.

La Liga 96-97 GPG 2.75
Serie-A 97-98 GPG 2.73
Serie-A 98-99 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 99-00 GPG 2.50
Serie-A 00-01 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 01-02 GPG 2.63

La Liga 10-11 GPG 2.74
La Liga 11-12 GPG 2.76
LA Liga 12-13 GPG 2.85

You have to go early 90's and before when it was hard to score, GPG average in low two's.

Quite a useless stat which breaks numerous rules of statistics, inference and causation. You need to do better than that, and watch Serie A of the that time period.

The Ostracised One wrote:

Okay I have seen enough nonsense posted. CR7 better than R9, CR7 better than van Basten

and you are using CR7's goal ratio now to compare it to theirs

First of all, comparing this iteration of La Liga to the serie A that both those players played in quite frankly an embarrassment. You can sort of guage how little football people have watched for MvB's and Ronaldo's league to be compared. There is no comparison. Serie A in the late 80s and 90s was the hardest league football I have ever seen and quite possibly the hardest in football history. To give you some persepctive, Ian Rush was playing for the great Liverpool side, he moved to Juventus and scored 7 goals in 29 games in Serie A. Did he decline? Nope Ian Rush said that finding space was nigh on impossible.

Now we go to van Basten. MVB has the best movement I have ever seen a forward have. Add to the fact that MVB was incredible under Cruyff, so much so that his sale to Milan is the reason Cruyff quit Ajax and set about reimaging Barcelona. Even Rijkaard, one of the best footballers ever said that Serie A was harder than the European cup. That should you give you some indication of what I am trying to say.

Ronaldo benefits from having other plays suffer. Same thing at United. Rooney and Tevez had to change their game to enable Ronaldo's. Same thing is happening at RM. Benzema and Higuain are suffering constantly ffs. Ronaldo isn't a winger or striker, he does whatever the hell he wants. MVB was part of Sacchis system and had to play with the collective. He played with a team that effectively rendered the sweeper position obsolete. The spaces for strikers and spaces between the lines back then was so little that it makes the spaces afforded to forwards today embarrassing. Add to the fact that different footballs were used and that the offside rule has changed to favour attackers now you will see why.

Tactically, there is no comparison in what they had to face. For people to come out here and have the audacity to claim he is better tha MVB, please gtfo. I am tired of reading BS in this forum from people that have got as much footballing knowledge as a baked potato. For MVB to have even accumulated that many goals should be used as an arguement for him being a superior player to Ronaldo, not worse. His movement was ridiculous. As I've said he has arguably the best movement I have ever seen.

Now I have ranted about such a shameful comparison unto the thread topic. Ronaldo is better than CR7. Pure and simple. The teams that Ronaldo has played in have been superior to any team R9 has played in his career. R9 was never afforded the luxury of playing the fantasisti role that Ronaldo is playing. At Barcelona we all saw what R9 was capable of. Even at Inter the man was a beast. Once again he played in a league where trequartistas where shouldering the creative burden and the mf areas where becoming cul da sacs and the amouto fo service he got compared to Ronaldo is really not comparable to be honest. Go and read up what I wrote in the trequartista thread to gain some damn footballing info. Ronaldo despite only playing 19 league games scored 14 goals. He was injured for the bulk of that season as well. Again the spaces that forwards had to operate in where compressed to a level that would embarrass forwards today. That is why trequartista in the 90s was the hardest position to play and because of that R9 had to essentially drop deep to get the ball as most fantasistsis where hounded by 2 to 3 medianos (Italian for defensive mf).So for Ronaldo to get service as regularly as CR7, it was not possibke. Add to the fact that this was the period of tactical swansong in Serie A, then yoiu get the full picture. R9 was stronger, better at pasisng, more clinical, faster, required less space to operate and associated better with teamates.Most importantly, his presence on the pitch did not require other players to sacrifice their positions and roles. Ronaldo would never have survived under coaches like Sacchi, Michels, Lippi or Lobanovskyi, coaches that placed emphasis on the collective rather than specialists, which Calmanaldo definately is. Please I implore anyone even making these daft comparisons to go and watch at least 70+ games of either of these players.

The space that CR7 gets to run and be one on one with opposition in La liga is just quite frankly a joke compared to R9, who even when Inter countered, still had multiple players that foulded him and tried to njure him. CR7 gets nowhere near the same treatment, physically or tactically.

Jibers back with a bang with another sensational post. Preach.

I don't want to hear CR and MvB in the same breadth of the sentence.

by Kaladin Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:32 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Actually Serie-A late 90's wasn't really harder to score than La Liga then and nowdays.

La Liga 96-97 GPG 2.75
Serie-A 97-98 GPG 2.73
Serie-A 98-99 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 99-00 GPG 2.50
Serie-A 00-01 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 01-02 GPG 2.63

La Liga 10-11 GPG 2.74
La Liga 11-12 GPG 2.76
LA Liga 12-13 GPG 2.85

You have to go early 90's and before when it was hard to score, GPG average in low two's.

Quite a useless stat which breaks numerous rules of statistics, inference and causation. You need to do better than that, and watch Serie A of the that time period.

The Ostracised One wrote:
Okay I have seen enough nonsense posted. CR7 better than R9, CR7 better than van Basten

and you are using CR7's goal ratio now to compare it to theirs

First of all, comparing this iteration of La Liga to the serie A that both those players played in quite frankly an embarrassment. You can sort of guage how little football people have watched for MvB's and Ronaldo's league to be compared. There is no comparison. Serie A in the late 80s and 90s was the hardest league football I have ever seen and quite possibly the hardest in football history. To give you some persepctive, Ian Rush was playing for the great Liverpool side, he moved to Juventus and scored 7 goals in 29 games in Serie A. Did he decline? Nope Ian Rush said that finding space was nigh on impossible.

Now we go to van Basten. MVB has the best movement I have ever seen a forward have. Add to the fact that MVB was incredible under Cruyff, so much so that his sale to Milan is the reason Cruyff quit Ajax and set about reimaging Barcelona. Even Rijkaard, one of the best footballers ever said that Serie A was harder than the European cup. That should you give you some indication of what I am trying to say.

Ronaldo benefits from having other plays suffer. Same thing at United. Rooney and Tevez had to change their game to enable Ronaldo's. Same thing is happening at RM. Benzema and Higuain are suffering constantly ffs. Ronaldo isn't a winger or striker, he does whatever the hell he wants. MVB was part of Sacchis system and had to play with the collective. He played with a team that effectively rendered the sweeper position obsolete. The spaces for strikers and spaces between the lines back then was so little that it makes the spaces afforded to forwards today embarrassing. Add to the fact that different footballs were used and that the offside rule has changed to favour attackers now you will see why.

Tactically, there is no comparison in what they had to face. For people to come out here and have the audacity to claim he is better tha MVB, please gtfo. I am tired of reading BS in this forum from people that have got as much footballing knowledge as a baked potato. For MVB to have even accumulated that many goals should be used as an arguement for him being a superior player to Ronaldo, not worse. His movement was ridiculous. As I've said he has arguably the best movement I have ever seen.

Now I have ranted about such a shameful comparison unto the thread topic. Ronaldo is better than CR7. Pure and simple. The teams that Ronaldo has played in have been superior to any team R9 has played in his career. R9 was never afforded the luxury of playing the fantasisti role that Ronaldo is playing. At Barcelona we all saw what R9 was capable of. Even at Inter the man was a beast. Once again he played in a league where trequartistas where shouldering the creative burden and the mf areas where becoming cul da sacs and the amouto fo service he got compared to Ronaldo is really not comparable to be honest. Go and read up what I wrote in the trequartista thread to gain some damn footballing info. Ronaldo despite only playing 19 league games scored 14 goals. He was injured for the bulk of that season as well. Again the spaces that forwards had to operate in where compressed to a level that would embarrass forwards today. That is why trequartista in the 90s was the hardest position to play and because of that R9 had to essentially drop deep to get the ball as most fantasistsis where hounded by 2 to 3 medianos (Italian for defensive mf).So for Ronaldo to get service as regularly as CR7, it was not possibke. Add to the fact that this was the period of tactical swansong in Serie A, then yoiu get the full picture. R9 was stronger, better at pasisng, more clinical, faster, required less space to operate and associated better with teamates.Most importantly, his presence on the pitch did not require other players to sacrifice their positions and roles. Ronaldo would never have survived under coaches like Sacchi, Michels, Lippi or Lobanovskyi, coaches that placed emphasis on the collective rather than specialists, which Calmanaldo definately is. Please I implore anyone even making these daft comparisons to go and watch at least 70+ games of either of these players.

The space that CR7 gets to run and be one on one with opposition in La liga is just quite frankly a joke compared to R9, who even when Inter countered, still had multiple players that foulded him and tried to njure him. CR7 gets nowhere near the same treatment, physically or tactically.

Jibers back with a bang with another sensational post. Preach.

I don't want to hear CR and MvB in the same breadth of the sentence.

But Mark van Bommel and CR are different players

:I'munoriginal:

by The Franchise Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:55 pm

Zealous wrote:
The Franchise wrote:You and I been on here too long for you not to know stats mean totally nothing to me.

And the Ballon Dor, somehow even less so.

As I said, I do deny it, thats just my opinion. I dont care what people will think when he is retired, people (who to me are incredibly wrong) think he is already better than players he isnt and he isnt even retired. So what people think, I could care less about.

You can call it wrong all you want and like I said you're well within your rights to say Player X or Y are better but that doesn't change anything. CR's numbers are there for all to see and I know you don't like stats and I agree about the Balon D'Or thing but people in the future will use that when discussing him. Saying that people are wrong is cool and all but Ronaldo has has worked hard and is playing at an elite level very consistently people respond to that even if you don't (or won't as it were).

You may not like Ronaldo as a player and that's fine but he's been cutting the mustard for a while now so don't act all surprised when you see topics like this gain momentum

I wont be surprised at anything, thats not the point really. You said can anyone deny he is an elite and I said yes, thats about it really.

by The Franchise Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:58 pm

Harmonica wrote:Actually Serie-A late 90's wasn't really harder to score than La Liga then and nowdays.

La Liga 96-97 GPG 2.75
Serie-A 97-98 GPG 2.73
Serie-A 98-99 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 99-00 GPG 2.50
Serie-A 00-01 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 01-02 GPG 2.63

La Liga 10-11 GPG 2.74
La Liga 11-12 GPG 2.76
LA Liga 12-13 GPG 2.85

You have to go early 90's and before when it was hard to score, GPG average in low two's.

All this really shows is people didnt score less, not that individual players had it any easier or more difficult.

If player X is better than player Y, they could still score the same amount of goals if the league player X player in is harder than that for player Y.

The entire theory isnt something stats can disprove.

by Harmonica Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:12 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Actually Serie-A late 90's wasn't really harder to score than La Liga then and nowdays.

La Liga 96-97 GPG 2.75
Serie-A 97-98 GPG 2.73
Serie-A 98-99 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 99-00 GPG 2.50
Serie-A 00-01 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 01-02 GPG 2.63

La Liga 10-11 GPG 2.74
La Liga 11-12 GPG 2.76
LA Liga 12-13 GPG 2.85

You have to go early 90's and before when it was hard to score, GPG average in low two's.

Quite a useless stat which breaks numerous rules of statistics, inference and causation. You need to do better than that, and watch Serie A of the that time period.

You have no idea what you are talking about, right? Assumed that average quality level of football is the same, goals per game tells how hard it was to score on average, or the relation between offensive and defensive game. Of course dispersion also affects the individual data points, but in the case of average, it doesn't matter. And in this case, I think it has minimal, if any effect on the actual players. I hope you lots of luck to your statistics courses though.

by Harmonica Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:19 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Actually Serie-A late 90's wasn't really harder to score than La Liga then and nowdays.

La Liga 96-97 GPG 2.75
Serie-A 97-98 GPG 2.73
Serie-A 98-99 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 99-00 GPG 2.50
Serie-A 00-01 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 01-02 GPG 2.63

La Liga 10-11 GPG 2.74
La Liga 11-12 GPG 2.76
LA Liga 12-13 GPG 2.85

You have to go early 90's and before when it was hard to score, GPG average in low two's.

All this really shows is people didnt score less, not that individual players had it any easier or more difficult.

If player X is better than player Y, they could still score the same amount of goals if the league player X player in is harder than that for player Y.

The entire theory isnt something stats can disprove.

Umm, yes. And GPG tells exactly how hard it was to score on average.

by Guest Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:22 pm

Statistics can tell a story, however that doesn't mean they are telling the whole story...

Were you a frequent watcher of football in those times, or are you just relying on your statistics?

by The Franchise Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:25 pm

Harmonica wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Actually Serie-A late 90's wasn't really harder to score than La Liga then and nowdays.

La Liga 96-97 GPG 2.75
Serie-A 97-98 GPG 2.73
Serie-A 98-99 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 99-00 GPG 2.50
Serie-A 00-01 GPG 2.76
Serie-A 01-02 GPG 2.63

La Liga 10-11 GPG 2.74
La Liga 11-12 GPG 2.76
LA Liga 12-13 GPG 2.85

You have to go early 90's and before when it was hard to score, GPG average in low two's.

All this really shows is people didnt score less, not that individual players had it any easier or more difficult.

If player X is better than player Y, they could still score the same amount of goals if the league player X player in is harder than that for player Y.

The entire theory isnt something stats can disprove.
Umm, yes. And GPG tells exactly how hard it was to score on average.

No..no it doesnt.

Goals per game shows how many were scored, now the difficult in scoring them.

If the Bulgarian second division and La Liga have the same goals scored on average, does that mean its equally easy to score in both leagues?

No of course not.

by Harmonica Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:33 pm

Like I said previously, assumed that the overall quality level is the same. And this wasn't Bulgarian second league, this was Serie-A and La Liga, which are close on average quality.

Here's GPG from the 50's on top 4 leagues:

Ronaldo vs Ronaldo - Page 4 8wmucp

Which from you can see how Serie-A wasn't actually overly defensive from 1990 to 2010.

by The Franchise Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:26 pm

Harmonica wrote:Like I said previously, assumed that the overall quality level is the same. And this wasn't Bulgarian second league, this was Serie-A and La Liga, which are close on average quality.

Here's GPG from the 50's on top 4 leagues:

Which from you can see how Serie-A wasn't actually overly defensive from 1990 to 2010.

Yeah but thats surely the point?

The overall quality is not the same. Serie A was better.

Obviously the gap is not Bulgarian 2nd division and La Liga, but still.

Its not even really quality thats important in this discussion, its mentality. In Italy, for a long long time it was defence first, even for the best teams. It was not uncommon to see 7 defence minded players and 3 offensive ones.

Back then Serie A simply cared more about defending than La Liga sides do now.

Then when you compare the best say, dozen defenders to La Ligas best...its pretty big game.

by Harmonica Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:46 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Like I said previously, assumed that the overall quality level is the same. And this wasn't Bulgarian second league, this was Serie-A and La Liga, which are close on average quality.

Here's GPG from the 50's on top 4 leagues:

Which from you can see how Serie-A wasn't actually overly defensive from 1990 to 2010.

Yeah but thats surely the point?

The overall quality is not the same. Serie A was better.

Obviously the gap is not Bulgarian 2nd division and La Liga, but still.

Its not even really quality thats important in this discussion, its mentality. In Italy, for a long long time it was defence first, even for the best teams. It was not uncommon to see 7 defence minded players and 3 offensive ones.

Back then Serie A simply cared more about defending than La Liga sides do now.

Then when you compare the best say, dozen defenders to La Ligas best...its pretty big game.

Based on what? Spain was actually higher on UEFA coefficient from 95 to 00.

Ronaldo vs Ronaldo - Page 4 2u3y6h1

And non of the specific "arguments" apply in the averages, because everyone are in the same situation, the rules and opponents are the same for everyone.

by The Franchise Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:26 pm

WTF is Coeffient? Dont give two shits about that.

Its based on what I saw..it was pretty obvious.

I dont know what there is to deny, its common sense.

If a league has generally better defenders and on top of that, generally teams field cautious line ups...they are going to be better defensively and therefore harder to score against.

Im not sure how you can argue around that with stats, graphs, pie charts and pythagoras theories which im barely reading.

Use one of them things to explain to me how come Cristian Vieiri was in Serie A, scored 7 goals in 19 games, 8 goals in 23 games and then went to La Liga, scored 24 goals in 25 games...then came back to Serie A and scored 12 in 22?

La Liga has always been a more open and offensive league regardless of how many goals were scored, if an equal amount of goals were scored in Serie A, the only conclusion to make is that those players in Serie A were better...and most people consider that to be the case.

Instead of lumping everyone together, makes much more sense to look on a case by case basis.

by Harmonica Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:32 pm

The Franchise wrote:WTF is Coeffient? Dont give two shits about that.

Im not sure how you can argue around that with stats, graphs, pie charts and pythagoras theories which im barely reading.

Then this discussion is pointless, because you aren't really comprehending statistics, and the essence of average values, in which this all relies.

by chad4401 Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:36 am

another debate comparing cr to some legend just end up looking like some averge joe no matter what, same pattern over and over

by FennecFox7 Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:51 am

ranDOM 10 wrote:Do you understand the meaning of efficiency? Where did I say that R9 did not take shots? I am only making the claim that CR7 has the green light to shoot when he wants and I believe R9 was smarter about picking his moments. Is my logic that crazy? Does CR7 not shoot from distance more than your average player?

Other points you failed to address:

CR7 has his teams play for him and he diminishes other players. He is given a free role and can play where ever his heart desires - I don't know exactly how R9 was treated in this aspect, but I don't believe he had such a luxury.

You also have failed to address his injuries and make the claim he had 2 great seasons, I won't say anymore about that...please so back and refer to Jibers post.

You came into this thread with a good attitude, but now that some don't agree with you, you have changed your tune. Sorry that I don't agree with you, but that is just life, little buddy. I am not diminishing CR7, however I will not sit around and let people make these hilarious claims about CR7 having a better shot because be has scored more shots from distance. Football is the ultimate team sport and I don't believe CR7 understands that. Even if he is becoming better about it more recently, I saw him more in the past and have witnessed just how greedy/foolish he can be, e.g., take 30 yard bullets when he can play a simple pass.

Sure I dislike CR7, but that only has to do with the type of teammate he is. I can recognize his greatness as a player, but some of y'all fail to recognize the reasoning behind some of that and keep mentioning these 50 goal seasons.

again

So you again try to argue that CR had teams who kiss ass to him. I mean, it totally isn't CR's brilliance that he is that good, its the system that makes him that good.

Is it really that small of a possibility that teams played around R9? If R9 destroys CR like you guys say, then it wouldn't be too far off?

CR is selfish.. please. Not at all. He has never been selfish.. watch him instead of feeding off of others opinions

The nostalgia in this forum is sad. It's funny really. I can't believe people call R9 the greatest player ever.. lol he isn't even on the same level as messi, cryuff, or maradona..

by FennecFox7 Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:05 am

chad4401 wrote:another debate comparing cr to some legend just end up looking like some averge joe no matter what, same pattern over and over

Lol exactly

I have never in my life seen so many haters as much as CR has

It's because hes different. he's not the typical player, he gets mad on the field sometimes, he runs weird, he does millions of stepovers, but in the end stats speak for themselves, everyone has their own style of play. lol ffs people criticize his style if anything, then try to make him look worse with that argument :facepalm:

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