İlkay Gündoğan - Borussia Dortmund #8

I saw too little of Cabaye to comment on that; I am serious on Modric though. Not serious again on Real, they aren't inferior. But poking fun at Modric is very rewarding, he just keeps on giving. The ball away.

What does dominating a midfield mean? The particular player has to make sure his side has 99% possession?

Winning the important duels. Do we really have to debate on a meta-theoretical level what "midfield domination" means so we can say whether or not Gündogan or Modric came closer to it?

This is mostly a contextual thing. Pure possession doesn't mean shit if you don't use it to create chances, pure chance creation doesn't mean shit if you get destroyed on the counter.

What people are probably trying to tell you is, that Gündogans midfield won the important 1on1s, their important passes connected more often than not, and they were basically free to chose how to initiate their attack and weren't forced to just bridge the midfield through the wings or hoofballs.

I don't agree that we can really hail or put down a single player when it comes to dominating or controlling the play, imo that was much down to the team play as a whole and tactic.

VivaStPauli wrote:Winning the important duels. Do we really have to debate on a meta-theoretical level what "midfield domination" means so we can say whether or not Gündogan or Modric came closer to it?

This is mostly a contextual thing. Pure possession doesn't mean shit if you don't use it to create chances, pure chance creation doesn't mean shit if you get destroyed on the counter.

What people are probably trying to tell you is, that Gündogans midfield won the important 1on1s, their important passes connected more often than not, and they were basically free to chose how to initiate their attack and weren't forced to just bridge the midfield through the wings or hoofballs.

Why should that mean that particular player has succeeded? Shouldn't it mean their whole midfield succeeded? Just because a team fails or succeeds through midfield, doesn't mean it's the midfield's fault. It could be due to tactics, defense, attack etc etc. Barca's midfield usually dominate most sides, does that mean the opposition's midfield has failed?

decent player but more must be seen of him, who knows, he might do a sahin

has history taught us nothing ? are we going down this road again ? xabi alonso is a top 3 player . xavi and iniesta are top 3 players in their positions . this gundohasafan has to prove himself over a number of years

Alonso is not a Top 3 player. Pirlo, Xavi, and Schweinsteiger are the undisputed Top 3 CMs in my opinion. That said, Gundogan id say is Top 10, which is still something to be proud of, but not Top 3. Hes still young though and is only going to get better.

2 european championships and a world cup as well as a champions league title and a la liga title would dispute your claim that he isn't a top 3 player, but fair enuogh, i take your point

timzink wrote: 2 european championships and a world cup as well as a champions league title and a la liga title would dispute your claim that he isn't a top 3 player, but fair enuogh, i take your point

To be fair: aside from the La Liga title, Torres also has all of those things

He's doing ok at the moment. I don't buy into the hype just yet though

Yea, as was said already, guys like Torres, Reina, Mata, etc also have those things. Mata and Torres even have a CL too. Championships mean almost nothing for individuals.

Alonso played in Spain's midfield when they won the Euros and the WC. Torres scored in the Euro 2008 final and 2012. Can't remember if he scored at the WC.

Doesnt make a difference. Theres 10 other players on the team. Since Spain has won so much recently, does that mean Arbeloa is better than Lahm? Ramos and/or Pique better than Chiellini, Silva, Barzagli, Hummels, etc? Busquets better than Vidal or De Rossi? Or since Chelsea won the CL, does that mean Mata and Malouda are better than Robben and Ribery? Or Messi and Iniesta? No. Simply no. Thats why team championships mean little to nothing for individuals.

It obviously means something since they won trophies. Busquets is the best DM in the World, Vidal is a B2B. Pique and Ramos are 2 of the best defenders in the World and are probably more suited to Spain than any other CB's.

Just because a team wins a trophy, doesn't always have to mean they have the best players. However sometimes it can. Spain didn't get lucky winning any trophies. Chelsea had a lot of luck.

De Rossi is better than Busquets. Marchisio and Vidal too, though their roles are slightly different. Pique and Ramos would barely make a Top 10 CB list. It means that as a team, Spain and Chelsea were the best (and luckiest in Chelseas case). But it has very little bearing on the quality of the individuals. Inter in 2010 were another great example of this. No one would say they had the individual quality of Bayern, Real, and Barca that year. But as a team, they were definitely the best, and it showed. If individual quality was all that mattered, PSG would be among the Top 3-4 teams in the world. Are they? Hell no. Thats why you cant say one player is better than another because of titles. Yes tgere are exceptions, like Kaka in 2007 showing he was the best by individually dominating United and others. But Alonso did not win those trophies on his own. Spain did. Schweinsteiger, Pirlo, and Xavi are all better than him.

It's hard to compare players if they play in different positions/roles. Pique and Ramos at their peak are in the top 10 CB's in the World category.

Inter had a lot of players who could be individually better than Bayern's players. Milito was better than Olic, Sneijder was better than Muller, Eto'o better than Robben, Pandev better than Altintop, Cambiasso probably better than Van Bommel, Lucio and Samuel better than Van Buyten and Demichelis and Julio Cesar better than Butt. Maicon was probably the best RB in the World that season, therefore better than Lahm.

In fact apart from Schweinsteiger, Inter had the better team.

PSG wouldn't be top 3-4 in terms of individual quality. I wouldn't say their midfield is the best. There's plenty of teams who have a better midfield and fullbacks.

Schweinsteiger isn't better than Xabi, even if Xabi is past it.

Based on current form, i would take Schweinsteiger over Xabi any day

Etoo was absolutely amazing in 2010, but he was not.better than Robben. Robben had a legitimate argument for the Ballon Dor that year. Sneijder, Milito, and central defense were the only things they were better at than Bayern.

And Schweinsteiger > Alonso. Dont know how people can even argue this after Schweinsteiget completely dominated the midfield last year when these two teams played.

Cambiasso? Maicon? Pandev better than Altintop? Cesar better than Butt?

I wasnt talking about just the game where they played each other. I was talkung about the CL as a whole that year. So Altintop doesnt apply. Ribery does. Are you gonna tell me Pandev was better than Ribery? Maicon and Lahm were on the same level that season. Van Bommel was old but was still a great tackler, got the defensive iob overall done.very well in midfield and more than anything was an excellent leader, id take him over Canbiasso. Cesar though youre right about that, forgot about that. Overall, id say they were about equal in quality, so maybe that wasnt a freat example, but for example against Barca. Yet Inter still managed to beat Barca.

Anyway I'm not saying a trophy winning team has the best players in the World.

Players in a trophy winning team can be better than players from teams who don't trophies.

Yes, agreed, but winning trophies is not what males them.better. They can obviously be better, but the trophies have no bearing on individual quality.

But it does show they have ability if they are winning trophies.

As a team. Spain has ability. It shows that the players are qualuty, but because Spain won and Germany or Italy didnt doesnt mean specific Apanish players are better than their German or Italian counterparts.