*Best in the World series* - Who are the top 5 DM's in the World?

Le Samourai wrote:Mobility is a part of defensive skill..but it's not the be all and end all. There are mechanisms you can put in place to counteract a lack of mobility from a person in that role and most teams do put them in place.

One could easily say Busquets lacks defensive skill because he does in fact lack mobility. Perhaps not to the extent of others because he's lanky and has excellent timing but it could be a problem (and has been sometimes when the mechanisms put in place to protect against it have failed).

But noone does. Because it's not a problem. And that's due to factors that don't directly include him.

When other people get called a liability on the same issue because their teams aren't equipped to assist them in dealing with it...it's a bit unfair.

likeastar wrote:Can Alonso play Busquets' role in Barca ?

Mr Nick09 wrote:I just wanted to mention Illarramendi who to me is a top young CM/Dm whatever classification you put him in, as one to watch.

The Franchise wrote:

likeastar wrote:Can Alonso play Busquets' role in Barca ?

Not on his best day, not ever.

And MT, I disagree about Alonso needing a DM next to him. It would never work.

You would have two players in front of the back 4 both offensively and defensively, less players in attack and if you got pressed your asking yourself to get trapped in there.

Arquitecto wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Cambiasso was excellent at some point, just before Mourinho came I felt was his very best years. However, he has lost some lateral movement and cant cover distances as sharply as before.

Put him in a very compact team where he doesnt have to move so far he is still very effective though last I saw.

Guys like Bender, Khedira, Ramires, Di Rossi and some others I dont count. They are different kind of players, shuttlers, or chargers you might call them, they are allowed freedom to roam around the pitch where they can use their energy to effect the game, pressers usually and they usually need other facets to their game or they get criticised, like Khedira does.

When I think of this position, I think of players who play in between the lines of their defence and midfield (or the rival's attack and midfield).

The issue I see is, the modern game has made it so these players need to be adept on the ball, because they are key to starting the game at the back.

Coaches then start fielding players in this position, not on defensive ability anymore, but ability on the ball. However, the player still holds defensive responsibility and thus isnt vertical when the rest of his team has the ball (or least he shouldnt be), they back up play and circulate it from that deeper position so that once possession is lost, they are not out of position.

Thats very nice in a ideal world, but on counter attacks, you often are isolated with space either side of you and thats where these players lack of defensive skill become a problem for the team. I have talked about this for a while, Alonso being the main player I speak of having this whole problem.

The point I am making is, this is why Busquets is not only the best, but frankly one of the most rare footballers on the planet.

Try naming another player who has the skills to start attacks from that position to a level inferior to noone, but at the same time has the defensive skill and will do it. There are very very few.

Fantastic points there. Cambiasso has lost his legs but still retains his excellent footballing IQ of awareness to plug Inter's midfield gaps left by their vertical runners.

As for Busquets, so far what I have seen only Danielle De Rossi and Javi Martinez can catalyse attacks from such a position.

Javi with his excellent awareness to anticipate before hand whilst retain possession by shielding the ball, outmanoeuvring the opponent followed by a swooping pass which splits the field to spread the play. Lost count of how many times he has done that at Athletic Club and has added a new element to Bayern, where he has benched that limited pitbull Gustavo and even making Scweinsteiger look limited.

De Rossi is more unpredictable as either he harries the opponent to drawing them out so he can find pockets of space middle where he can one two out of a situation, dribble round the shield of the midfield or circle round wide other side of the field and exploit his insanely accurate passing. His positioning and role is why people confuse him between CM and DM. Its his midfield dominance which is the trademark especially when against the odds. In that sense he is the most unpredictable from the three.

Aside from that no one that I can think of.

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

likeastar wrote:Can Alonso play Busquets' role in Barca ?

Not on his best day, not ever.

And MT, I disagree about Alonso needing a DM next to him. It would never work.

You would have two players in front of the back 4 both offensively and defensively, less players in attack and if you got pressed your asking yourself to get trapped in there.

Yeh but if we get pressed, it'd probably be easier to keep the ball. Alonso usually loses it anyway when he gets pressed.

Either way I'm not really a fan of DLP's. In front of the defense I think it's better to have a DM. DLP's can only playmake from deep, whereas a CM can go B2B and playmake.

The Franchise wrote:Yep, I feel Toulalan is small and weak. Perhaps he isnt small in height, but I seen some pathetic attempts at a tackle from him and I see very little intensity. I seen Cristiano go past him like he was a pub player and im an not exaggerating for effect, it was that eay.

Le Samourai wrote:Mobility is a part of defensive skill..but it's not the be all and end all. There are mechanisms you can put in place to counteract a lack of mobility from a person in that role and most teams do put them in place.

One could easily say Busquets lacks defensive skill because he does in fact lack mobility. Perhaps not to the extent of others because he's lanky and has excellent timing but it could be a problem (and has been sometimes when the mechanisms put in place to protect against it have failed).

But noone does. Because it's not a problem. And that's due to factors that don't directly include him.

When other people get called a liability on the same issue because their teams aren't equipped to assist them in dealing with it...it's a bit unfair.

And I disagree, there are not things you can put in place. What you can do is put them in a position where they cover less ground, but then your required to drop the lines back, stay more compact, play other defensive orientated players and such measures.

Busquets isnt the quickest or fastest guy, but he is incredibly smart. He knows where the ball is going before it gets there, he presses his man and he has physical tools others dont...his long legs often make it very akward to get past him and he often deflects balls away from his man. Alonso dont have those things, he has become a brute as his legs leave him more and more and resorts to fouls.

So no, they are not the same. Alonso would be a disaster in Barca and I think you know that.

The Franchise wrote:I dont agree

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Not on his best day, not ever.

And MT, I disagree about Alonso needing a DM next to him. It would never work.

You would have two players in front of the back 4 both offensively and defensively, less players in attack and if you got pressed your asking yourself to get trapped in there.

Yeh but if we get pressed, it'd probably be easier to keep the ball. Alonso usually loses it anyway when he gets pressed.

Either way I'm not really a fan of DLP's. In front of the defense I think it's better to have a DM. DLP's can only playmake from deep, whereas a CM can go B2B and playmake.

I think it would be harder to keep the ball, because if you have another midfielder next to you, the opponant will bring another midfielder from a deep position to cover him, so you will have even less space to work in. I agree with that once Alonso is gone though, perhaps a more defence first type of player should replace him.

Le Samourai wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Yep, I feel Toulalan is small and weak. Perhaps he isnt small in height, but I seen some pathetic attempts at a tackle from him and I see very little intensity. I seen Cristiano go past him like he was a pub player and im an not exaggerating for effect, it was that eay.

Le Samourai wrote:Mobility is a part of defensive skill..but it's not the be all and end all. There are mechanisms you can put in place to counteract a lack of mobility from a person in that role and most teams do put them in place.

One could easily say Busquets lacks defensive skill because he does in fact lack mobility. Perhaps not to the extent of others because he's lanky and has excellent timing but it could be a problem (and has been sometimes when the mechanisms put in place to protect against it have failed).

But noone does. Because it's not a problem. And that's due to factors that don't directly include him.

When other people get called a liability on the same issue because their teams aren't equipped to assist them in dealing with it...it's a bit unfair.

And I disagree, there are not things you can put in place. What you can do is put them in a position where they cover less ground, but then your required to drop the lines back, stay more compact, play other defensive orientated players and such measures.

Busquets isnt the quickest or fastest guy, but he is incredibly smart. He knows where the ball is going before it gets there, he presses his man and he has physical tools others dont...his long legs often make it very akward to get past him and he often deflects balls away from his man. Alonso dont have those things, he has become a brute as his legs leave him more and more and resorts to fouls.

So no, they are not the same. Alonso would be a disaster in Barca and I think you know that.

You're not saying anything I didn't already admit.

But to me you're underestimating the effect exogenous factors have on Alonso's and Busquets differing capacity to be effective in their roles.

An example of a situation Alonso commonly finds himself in is this. The midfield line disappears in front of him mindlessly chasing the ball and he's in the centre. All 3 or four passing options on the opposing team are behind their man and fee enough to receive a pass on the move. In this type of situation with the field opened up - it's get the ball or foul. Sometimes (more often than he gets credit for he gets the ball). Sometimes he doesn't and he fouls. Either way he breaks up the play.

Busquets rarely rarely finds himself in that type of situation. Passing options are covered, the passers themselves are pressured, the opposition is usually in an uncomfortable zone rather than one where they have momentum and freedom.You might mistake this for me saying he's not good defensively or that anyone can do what he does. That's not what I'm trying to get at. I'm saying his capacity to be effective in his role is augmented by the situations he encounters.

He might be a disaster. Different conversation. One I don't really care about.

I simply don't think the flak he takes for being a bad defensive player is merited when he does the ridiculous amount that's asked of him very well. If a manager can't recognize that he's in a situation where it's near impossible for him to be effective because of physical limits then the managers brain is a defensive liability. (which it is).

@Yohan Modric.

I agree with Dani there. And even on the reverse issue. Even if you go ahead and drop Alonso - there aren't really any DM's who cover all the boxes to be effective in the role..bar perhpas De Rossi.

Khedira would also be a problem because he would have to assume a much more transitional role- which I don't think he can perfom.

Arquitecto wrote:Javi has added a new element to Bayern, where he has benched that limited pitbull Gustavo and even making Scweinsteiger look limited.