*Best in the World series* - Who are the top 5 DM's in the World?

Epoto wrote: DDr tackles are world class , one of the few players that can pull of a hard tackle without committing any fault. I don't really see DDR as a CM hence to the fact that he wasn't really successful in Cm position in this season

I don't really watch La Liga to form an opinion about busquets

Leiva is the same. He terrorizes the best player on the other team with a hard tackle at the beginning of the match and for the rest of the match the player is afraid to play near Lucas.

Pre-Injury it was undoubtedly Lucas, but now it's probably Bisquit

Busquests, DDR, Gustavo, Lucas Lieva, Cambiasso

"BTW nice that you call my logic retarded instead of actually trying to counter it."

Because you are saying because Inter defended well as a team then that means it's impossible for any of their players to have put in a defensive masterclass.That is bullshit.

By the way they only defended like that because they went down to 10 men,unlike Chelsea.Watch the Match in the San Siro again and the first 30 minutes in the Nou Camp and look how high Inter pressured up and how well they defended by doing that.Cambiasso made Messi his bitch in both legs.

You are just one of those fan boys who thinks all our players are perfect.

Lass
Mikel
Cambiasso
Busquets
Gago

Real Kandahar wrote:Lass
Mikel
Cambiasso
Busquets
Gago

I can understand the 'logic' with putting Cambiasso in front of Busquests but Lass and Mikel?

Lass is the god of DM's

worms wrote:"BTW nice that you call my logic retarded instead of actually trying to counter it."

Because you are saying because Inter defended well as a team then that means it's impossible for any of their players to have put in a defensive masterclass.That is bullshit.

By the way they only defended like that because they went down to 10 men,unlike Chelsea.Watch the Match in the San Siro again and the first 30 minutes in the Nou Camp and look how high Inter pressured up and how well they defended by doing that.Cambiasso made Messi his bitch in both legs.

You are just one of those fan boys who thinks all our players are perfect.

You mean Cambiasso and Zanetti and the entire Inter team who parked the bus.
And no I dont think all our players are perfect.I just confronted you on your baseless claims and you havent put forward a single argument to back up your claims when countered.

Ignacio Camacho-He sets the tone for Malaga with his pressing and is the on field proxy for Pelligrini relaying the defensive organization of the team.

One man pressing machine through the centre. Forces the ball into the areas attackers don't want to take it while effortlessly covering the acres space left between the defense and the attack.

Has great timing in anticipating passes and executing tackles despite being a little too enthusiastic and not letting the game come to him. Dominant in the air when he acts as an auxillary centre-back.

My favorite defensive midfielder easily.

DDR - He's not really a defensive midfielder. He's the closest thing to a total footballer there is in the game today really. He can do anything required and that skillset is amplified by his understanding of when to use it.

technically, if u put pepe in DM, he's best.

Le Samourai wrote:Ignacio Camacho-He sets the tone for Malaga with his pressing and is the on field proxy for Pelligrini relaying the defensive organization of the team.

One man pressing machine through the centre. Forces the ball into the areas attackers don't want to take it while effortlessly covering the acres space left between the defense and the attack.

Has great timing in anticipating passes and executing tackles despite being a little too enthusiastic and not letting the game come to him. Dominant in the air when he acts as an auxillary centre-back.

My favorite defensive midfielder easily.

DDR - He's not really a defensive midfielder. He's the closest thing to a total footballer there is in the game today really. He can do anything required and that skillset is amplified by his understanding of when to use it.

Camacho is very good but also mistake prone and doesn't have enough experience to make top 5.Iturra is also a good DM.Malaga are blessed with good DM's it seems.

"Modern football has ostracized DM's."

I don't think that's completely true,it's just that DM's nowadays have to be able to play a bit too.In the mid noughties DM's were just expected to defend and be physical but now that possession is been prioritized more and more DM's have to be decent on the ball too.

Cambiasso was excellent at some point, just before Mourinho came I felt was his very best years. However, he has lost some lateral movement and cant cover distances as sharply as before.

Put him in a very compact team where he doesnt have to move so far he is still very effective though last I saw.

Guys like Bender, Khedira, Ramires, Di Rossi and some others I dont count. They are different kind of players, shuttlers, or chargers you might call them, they are allowed freedom to roam around the pitch where they can use their energy to effect the game, pressers usually and they usually need other facets to their game or they get criticised, like Khedira does.

When I think of this position, I think of players who play in between the lines of their defence and midfield (or the rival's attack and midfield).

The issue I see is, the modern game has made it so these players need to be adept on the ball, because they are key to starting the game at the back.

Coaches then start fielding players in this position, not on defensive ability anymore, but ability on the ball. However, the player still holds defensive responsibility and thus isnt vertical when the rest of his team has the ball (or least he shouldnt be), they back up play and circulate it from that deeper position so that once possession is lost, they are not out of position.

Thats very nice in a ideal world, but on counter attacks, you often are isolated with space either side of you and thats where these players lack of defensive skill become a problem for the team. I have talked about this for a while, Alonso being the main player I speak of having this whole problem.

The point I am making is, this is why Busquets is not only the best, but frankly one of the most rare footballers on the planet.

Try naming another player who has the skills to start attacks from that position to a level inferior to noone, but at the same time has the defensive skill and will do it. There are very very few.

Sven Bender does fit the description of pure DM, though. Lars Bender doesn't.
I wouldn't necessarily argue either to be in the top5 though, just nitpicking at that particular point

The problem is I often confuse one with the other and forget which one plays for Dortmund and which one players for Bayer Leverkusen, thus I said Bender referring to whichever one I was thinking of who applies...which is know now is Lars.

Alonso doesn't lack defensive skill. He lacks mobility - something which is exacerbated by the way we play. Our midfield (or at least what's supposed the be a midfield) is usually in the final third because they are all expected run directly toward goal on attacks. Alonso sits back and is left with acres of space to cover, a role not suited for someone with his severe lack of space .

In terms of anticipation, and breaking up play he's excellent but he's often left isolated and overrun.

You can put a range of Defensive midfielders praised for their defensive ability in his role and they will have the same difficulties. Toulalon for example can do everything you outline (just like Alonso can) but if he's left isolated in space he is helpless. He naturally resorts to fouling (again, just like Alonso) - as it's the next best option when you lack the physical ability to counter the weaknesses poor team setup open you up to.

There are other dudes as well. Neustadter,Arteta, endless list of people who simply get overrun because of structural problems in the team. Barca is different - firstly you have the ball most of the time and you rarely lose it in areas of vulnerability and secondly when and if you do lose the ball you have 3 people around it forcing bad passes or unfavorable channels of attack.

Also @ Worms . Do you watch Malaga consistently? 1 mistake isn't enough to label someone as mistake prone. Iturra was a great pickup but he's not a DM per se. Moreso he's an auxillary presser brought in to help Camacho when the team is at the risk of being completely overrun. The conservative option.

I count mobility as part of defensive skill, I dont need to list every defensive weakness for all the players I speak of to make my point surely?

Toulalon I dont like either, never have. So small, weak and unathletic...shockingly so.

Khedira and Ramires are box to box midfielders,maybe someone should do a top 5 box to box midfielder thread?

It will be interesting because sometimes it isn't clear cut whether a player is a box to box midfielder or a CM.

Xavi for example will build play from in our own half sometimes and end up just outside/in the opponents box at the end of the move.But when defending he rarely drops back to near the edge of our box so he isn't a box to box midfielder by definition but he has some qualities of a box to box midfielder.

Le Samourai wrote:Alonso doesn't lack defensive skill. He lacks mobility - something which is exacerbated by the way we play. Our midfield (or at least what's supposed the be a midfield) is usually in the final third because they are all expected run directly toward goal on attacks. Alonso sits back and is left with acres of space to cover, a role not suited for someone with his severe lack of space .

In terms of anticipation, and breaking up play he's excellent but he's often left isolated and overrun.

You can put a range of Defensive midfielders praised for their defensive ability in his role and they will have the same difficulties. Toulalon for example can do everything you outline (just like Alonso can) but if he's left isolated in space he is helpless. He naturally resorts to fouling (again, just like Alonso) - as it's the next best option when you lack the physical ability to counter the weaknesses poor team setup open you up to.

There are other dudes as well. Neustadter,Arteta, endless list of people who simply get overrun because of structural problems in the team. Barca is different - firstly you have the ball most of the time and you rarely lose it in areas of vulnerability and secondly when and if you do lose the ball you have 3 people around it forcing bad passes or unfavorable channels of attack.

Also @ Worms . Do you watch Malaga consistently? 1 mistake isn't enough to label someone as mistake prone. Iturra was a great pickup but he's not a DM per se. Moreso he's an auxillary presser brought in to help Camacho when the team is at the risk of being completely overrun. The conservative option.

No I try to watch them when I can though,I haved watched them about 8 times this season.I said that because he has made 2 god awful mistakes(against Barca and against Real Madrid leading to Benzemas goal,you know the one were he received the ball deep in his own half with loads of time on the ball,tried to pass it to a defender without looking up and Ozil was there) in the last 2/3 weeks and I thought it couldn't be a coincidence.

Both times he showed a massive lack of awareness,tunnel vision and poor concentration.He's only young though so he can cut that out of his game with more experience.

Ye you are probably right about Iturra,his main strengths are defensive though and he can probably play there.I am sure I heard he plays DM for Chile though.

And Toulalon small and weak? He's 6 foot,stocky and he is very strong.

You can see some instances of his strength in this video:

Mobility is a part of defensive skill..but it's not the be all and end all. There are mechanisms you can put in place to counteract a lack of mobility from a person in that role and most teams do put them in place.

One could easily say Busquets lacks defensive skill because he does in fact lack mobility. Perhaps not to the extent of others because he's lanky and has excellent timing but it could be a problem (and has been sometimes when the mechanisms put in place to protect against it have failed).

But noone does. Because it's not a problem. And that's due to factors that don't directly include him.

When other people get called a liability on the same issue because their teams aren't equipped to assist them in dealing with it...it's a bit unfair.

The Franchise wrote:Cambiasso was excellent at some point, just before Mourinho came I felt was his very best years. However, he has lost some lateral movement and cant cover distances as sharply as before.

Put him in a very compact team where he doesnt have to move so far he is still very effective though last I saw.

Guys like Bender, Khedira, Ramires, Di Rossi and some others I dont count. They are different kind of players, shuttlers, or chargers you might call them, they are allowed freedom to roam around the pitch where they can use their energy to effect the game, pressers usually and they usually need other facets to their game or they get criticised, like Khedira does.

When I think of this position, I think of players who play in between the lines of their defence and midfield (or the rival's attack and midfield).

The issue I see is, the modern game has made it so these players need to be adept on the ball, because they are key to starting the game at the back.

Coaches then start fielding players in this position, not on defensive ability anymore, but ability on the ball. However, the player still holds defensive responsibility and thus isnt vertical when the rest of his team has the ball (or least he shouldnt be), they back up play and circulate it from that deeper position so that once possession is lost, they are not out of position.

Thats very nice in a ideal world, but on counter attacks, you often are isolated with space either side of you and thats where these players lack of defensive skill become a problem for the team. I have talked about this for a while, Alonso being the main player I speak of having this whole problem.

The point I am making is, this is why Busquets is not only the best, but frankly one of the most rare footballers on the planet.

Try naming another player who has the skills to start attacks from that position to a level inferior to noone, but at the same time has the defensive skill and will do it. There are very very few.

Fantastic points there. Cambiasso has lost his legs but still retains his excellent footballing IQ of awareness to plug Inter's midfield gaps left by their vertical runners.

As for Busquets, so far what I have seen only Danielle De Rossi and Javi Martinez can catalyse attacks from such a position.

Javi with his excellent awareness to anticipate before hand whilst retain possession by shielding the ball, outmanoeuvring the opponent followed by a swooping pass which splits the field to spread the play. Lost count of how many times he has done that at Athletic Club and has added a new element to Bayern, where he has benched that limited pitbull Gustavo and even making Scweinsteiger look limited.

De Rossi is more unpredictable as either he harries the opponent to drawing them out so he can find pockets of space middle where he can one two out of a situation, dribble round the shield of the midfield or circle round wide other side of the field and exploit his insanely accurate passing. His positioning and role is why people confuse him between CM and DM. Its his midfield dominance which is the trademark especially when against the odds. In that sense he is the most unpredictable from the three.

Aside from that no one that I can think of.

A CM can go B2B. E.g. someone like Xavi.

Also Alonso isn't a DM, he's a deep lying playmaker. His job isn't really to protect the defense. Ideally a pure DM would play next to him.

However I'd prefer if we played a pure DM in Alonso's place.

Can Alonso play Busquets' role in Barca ?

likeastar wrote:Can Alonso play Busquets' role in Barca ?

Nah, he isn't a DM.

Yep, I feel Toulalan is small and weak. Perhaps he isnt small in height, but I seen some pathetic attempts at a tackle from him and I see very little intensity. I seen Cristiano go past him like he was a pub player and im an not exaggerating for effect, it was that eay.

Le Samourai wrote:Mobility is a part of defensive skill..but it's not the be all and end all. There are mechanisms you can put in place to counteract a lack of mobility from a person in that role and most teams do put them in place.

One could easily say Busquets lacks defensive skill because he does in fact lack mobility. Perhaps not to the extent of others because he's lanky and has excellent timing but it could be a problem (and has been sometimes when the mechanisms put in place to protect against it have failed).

But noone does. Because it's not a problem. And that's due to factors that don't directly include him.

When other people get called a liability on the same issue because their teams aren't equipped to assist them in dealing with it...it's a bit unfair.

And I disagree, there are not things you can put in place. What you can do is put them in a position where they cover less ground, but then your required to drop the lines back, stay more compact, play other defensive orientated players and such measures.

Busquets isnt the quickest or fastest guy, but he is incredibly smart. He knows where the ball is going before it gets there, he presses his man and he has physical tools others dont...his long legs often make it very akward to get past him and he often deflects balls away from his man. Alonso dont have those things, he has become a brute as his legs leave him more and more and resorts to fouls.

So no, they are not the same. Alonso would be a disaster in Barca and I think you know that.