FFS: Zenit's largest fan group write open letter to owners

Cassius_Case wrote:but the question was, would as many people be conndemning it? i dont think they would tbh.

Probably not as many. Hard to say why really.

Maybe because white people and straight people are not usually the victims of racism when compared to gay people or black people.

Maybe because Heterosexual and white people are less likely to be racially/sexually abused, then, they'll also be less used to standing up to it.

I don't know really.

stevieg8 wrote:

white_star wrote:Why is it disgraceful and why is all of Russia all of a sudden not deserving of hosting a world cup? This is a group of fans not the majority. The club does not have to even take them seriously. They are sharing their point of you through a letter even stating they are not racist. Based on that they cannot be held accountable of wrong doing. We all may disagree with them but generalizing a country and club or even city based on one group of fans doesn't make you guys any better then these fans. Whether you like it or not it's true!!!!

90% of fans polled on pro-Zenit forums agreed with the letter (source: http://rt.com/sport/football/zenit-fans-african-gay-184/), and this is being issued by their largest fan group. A homemade bomb was found with Hulk's face on it, and M'Vila refused to move to the club after receiving death threats. I would never accuse someone of being a racist on an individual level simply because I heard they're a Zenit fan or a Russian or from St. Petersberg, but labeling these fan groups and this letter as racist is not a stretch.

Also, stating you're not racist does not mean you're not racist. Case in point: "White Star is Polish, and therefore is an angry racist who's probably poor. But I'm not racist." Maybe read the content of the article before discussing it, especially if you're going to call people ignorant on this issue.

Actually, maybe you should stop posting about racism in general. You're entitled to your views, but seeing as how wrong they are, you might want to stop embarrassing yourself.

What embarrassing myself? No I have a view and I could express it.

chinomaster182 wrote:I love how this is, at it's very best, a homophobic and xenophobic rant that suggests the club to illegally discriminate future employers. And that communism thing that literally tore the nation apart? Lets bring it back because who likes profits anyways? Not the Zenit ultras it seems.

Zenit needs to speak out loudly against all of this, if they don't they are complicit and will just go against White Stars point on not everybody being racists.

Exactly what I am *bleep* saying it. The club has to speak against the fans or then we can began to generalize. You people don't know shit about supporting clubs or anything about ultras! Watching the sport from India or the USA on a crap stream is not te same thing. The largest supporters group which obviously is a group of ultras. This group is not 90% of the fans. Do you know why it is labeled the largest because not every fan belongs to a group!!! I was defending the city and club not the fans that wrote the letter get your shot straight and plug your vaginas. This whole generalizing thing is what pisses me off. Why don't you lot stop talking about subjects you have not experienced or seen for yourselfs, the Internet and media is not always right!

chinomaster182 wrote:I love how this is, at it's very best, a homophobic and xenophobic rant that suggests the club to illegally discriminate future employers. And that communism thing that literally tore the nation apart? Lets bring it back because who likes profits anyways? Not the Zenit ultras it seems.

Zenit needs to speak out loudly against all of this, if they don't they are complicit and will just go against White Stars point on not everybody being racists.

They're in a bad spot here.

These sentiments are culturally ingrained. They're not going to suddenly change and while making a stance against it may perhaps be ethically right, it could be financially costly.

They stand to lose the core section of their fans.

You are aware we a criticising the letter right? And a we are also encouraging that Zenit take action against such how you say bullshi*

white star....

Your standard responses are:
- You're stupid
- You're not a real fan

If you think this is just a minor thing that only involves a small group of people, why don't your read this:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1268282/zenit-st.-petersburg-fans-demanding-all-white,-non-gay-team?cc=5739

It's not a small problem. It's just another example of a much bigger problem in Russia.

Irish_Catalan_Scouser wrote:

Cassius_Case wrote:but the question was, would as many people be conndemning it? i dont think they would tbh.

Probably not as many. Hard to say why really.

Maybe because white people and straight people are not usually the victims of racism when compared to gay people or black people.

Maybe because Heterosexual and white people are less likely to be racially/sexually abused, then, they'll also be less used to standing up to it.

I don't know really.

i know its a mystery but that in itself is sort of racism. just cause it happens less to white and straight people less doesnt make it any more okay. Where im from, if a white guy gets racially abused he just shouts '*bleep* off you tosser' and carries on with his day or more than likely shout something racist back and carries on with his day but in my experiences of racism (which is a fair amount considering the area im from) it tends to be the 'other' people who are first to shout 'he racially abused me, bla bla bla ect' its almost like they cant wait to say it. when the white guys are racially abused seem to care less about it and make less of a deal about it which then inn turn the media cant go wild about. in my experiences anyway.

I think just as many white peoplen are racially abused as to white people racially abusing other races. the media just care less when it happens to whites.

A bit off-topic, but kind of on-topic as well

Not sure if any of you saw this...


On-topic: Some of you have already dealt with the ignorance in this thread and I won't even get into that.

white_star wrote:Why is it disgraceful and why is all of Russia all of a sudden not deserving of hosting a world cup? This is a group of fans not the majority. The club does not have to even take them seriously. They are sharing their point of you through a letter even stating they are not racist. Based on that they cannot be held accountable of wrong doing. We all may disagree with them but generalizing a country and club or even city based on one group of fans doesn't make you guys any better then these fans. Whether you like it or not it's true!!!!

I don't believe that generalizing is going on and while we can't put a certain number on the percentages, it's clear the group is big enough to make an impact on the clubs decision making. It's also the level of hate that concerns me, these people are clearly racist and some even willing to act on it. You're twisting everyone's words to your benefit; no one is saying all of Russia doesn't deserve the World Cup, but it seems to me that there's enough evidence to consider changing hosts. It's a privilege to have such a prestigious event held in your Country, not a right. Football is supposed to be about anti racism, it's a sport that welcomes all cultures and people.

white_star wrote:
This group is not 90% of the fans. Do you know why it is labeled the largest because not every fan belongs to a group!!! I was defending the city and club not the fans that wrote the letter get your shot straight and plug your vaginas. This whole generalizing thing is what pisses me off. Why don't you lot stop talking about subjects you have not experienced or seen for yourselfs, the Internet and media is not always right!

stevieg8 wrote:
90% of fans polled on pro-Zenit forums agreed with the letter (source: http://rt.com/sport/football/zenit-fans-african-gay-184/), and this is being issued by their largest fan group. A homemade bomb was found with Hulk's face on it, and M'Vila refused to move to the club after receiving death threats. I would never accuse someone of being a racist on an individual level simply because I heard they're a Zenit fan or a Russian or from St. Petersberg, but labeling these fan groups and this letter as racist is not a stretch.

Also, stating you're not racist does not mean you're not racist. Case in point: "White Star is Polish, and therefore is an angry racist who's probably poor. But I'm not racist." Maybe read the content of the article before discussing it, especially if you're going to call people ignorant on this issue.

Actually, maybe you should stop posting about racism in general. You're entitled to your views, but seeing as how wrong they are, you might want to stop embarrassing yourself.

Perhaps you should consider actually reading and comprehending what people are saying. You make it seem as if you aren't speaking with posters who are well known for their intelligence.

I don't know where I stand on Zenit, but you/they can't have their cake and eat it too. You claim these ultras are only a small number, but they seem to be forcing the clubs hand. I understand they have bought Hulk and Witsel (I don't understand why they would move to such a club) and I'm not sure what the fans consider them to be (the Hulk bomb story leads me to believe he didn't make it onto the "list").

Not sure what else to say - as usual, I hope my thoughts weren't too scattered and out of order.

Not making any accusations, but a lot of the post talked about racism and didn't bring up the comments about no gays. Also, to my knowledge, there are no openly gay professional footballers - those specific fans/ultras just wanted to be sure they got the message.

white_star wrote:

chinomaster182 wrote:I love how this is, at it's very best, a homophobic and xenophobic rant that suggests the club to illegally discriminate future employers. And that communism thing that literally tore the nation apart? Lets bring it back because who likes profits anyways? Not the Zenit ultras it seems.

Zenit needs to speak out loudly against all of this, if they don't they are complicit and will just go against White Stars point on not everybody being racists.

Exactly what I am *bleep* saying it. The club has to speak against the fans or then we can began to generalize. You people don't know shit about supporting clubs or anything about ultras! Watching the sport from India or the USA on a crap stream is not te same thing. The largest supporters group which obviously is a group of ultras. This group is not 90% of the fans. Do you know why it is labeled the largest because not every fan belongs to a group!!! I was defending the city and club not the fans that wrote the letter get your shot straight and plug your vaginas. This whole generalizing thing is what pisses me off. Why don't you lot stop talking about subjects you have not experienced or seen for yourselfs, the Internet and media is not always right!

you mean like generalizing all madrid fans as glory hunters?

sportsczy wrote:white star....

Your standard responses are:
- You're stupid
- You're not a real fan

If you think this is just a minor thing that only involves a small group of people, why don't your read this:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1268282/zenit-st.-petersburg-fans-demanding-all-white,-non-gay-team?cc=5739

It's not a small problem. It's just another example of a much bigger problem in Russia.

Have you seen a Madrid game? Have you sat with the ultras in Madrid or any other club in Spain? I don't think so because Madrid do have crazy ultras who have made ultra remarks. Any game in Europe you will hear racism go see a game and then we can talk.

Cassius_Case wrote:

i know its a mystery but that in itself is sort of racism. just cause it happens less to white and straight people less doesnt make it any more okay. Where im from, if a white guy gets racially abused he just shouts '*bleep* off you tosser' and carries on with his day or more than likely shout something racist back and carries on with his day but in my experiences of racism (which is a fair amount considering the area im from) it tends to be the 'other' people who are first to shout 'he racially abused me, bla bla bla ect' its almost like they cant wait to say it. when the white guys are racially abused seem to care less about it and make less of a deal about it which then inn turn the media cant go wild about. in my experiences anyway.

I think just as many white peoplen are racially abused as to white people racially abusing other races. the media just care less when it happens to whites.

It really depends on the impact of racism on a specific segment historically and in the present. There just aren't many cases where white people have been persecuted because they're white. But in the case of black and gay people for example, the history of severe persecution is clear. That tends to leave a lot of scars and make people a lot more aware.

I'm sure that if black and gay people had not suffered significantly as a result of racist and/or discriminatory events, they would just brush it off too.

vanDEEZ wrote:

white_star wrote:

chinomaster182 wrote:I love how this is, at it's very best, a homophobic and xenophobic rant that suggests the club to illegally discriminate future employers. And that communism thing that literally tore the nation apart? Lets bring it back because who likes profits anyways? Not the Zenit ultras it seems.

Zenit needs to speak out loudly against all of this, if they don't they are complicit and will just go against White Stars point on not everybody being racists.

Exactly what I am *bleep* saying it. The club has to speak against the fans or then we can began to generalize. You people don't know shit about supporting clubs or anything about ultras! Watching the sport from India or the USA on a crap stream is not te same thing. The largest supporters group which obviously is a group of ultras. This group is not 90% of the fans. Do you know why it is labeled the largest because not every fan belongs to a group!!! I was defending the city and club not the fans that wrote the letter get your shot straight and plug your vaginas. This whole generalizing thing is what pisses me off. Why don't you lot stop talking about subjects you have not experienced or seen for yourselfs, the Internet and media is not always right!

you mean like generalizing all madrid fans as glory hunters?

Not all and not just Madrid fans. Everyone who supports a team from a country that they have no ties to are glory hunters. No one said its a good or bad thing! You all are taking it out it context I am just relaying you the truth!

THC good response and respect!

But please read the first page because there was lots of generalizing.

I read all three pages - I was not claiming that all posters were not generalizing (my apologizes if it came across that way)- I will be sure to go back and read it again.

Lazio and Hellas Verona fans shared the same sentiments but once their clubs started to sign black players they simply had to deal with it. If Zenit can't handle its fans and believes they would pose an actual threat to players then it is their problem. Says a thing or two about the overall racist mentality of Russia as well as you can be sure there won't be much public outrage over these opinions.

I hope you lot take that crap back. I would feel stupid if I said something bad about a club before they got a chance to react. Please read how racist the club is





Zenit St Petersburg have reiterated their opposition to views advanced by a group of their supporters who called for "sexual minorities" and non-Europeans to be excluded from the playing staff.

Director of sport Dietmar Beiersdorfer insisted the Russian club was concerned only with the quality of players and not their ethnic origin, nationality or sexual orientation. Zenit was the only Premier League team without a black player in their squad until earlier this year, when they brought in Hulk and Axel Witsel from Porto and Benfica respectively.

Zenit remain the only club in the top flight to have never signed an African player, but Beiersdorfer told the club's official view: "We make our player selections without any limitation regarding origin, religion or skin colour. We have absolutely no policy in Zenit of limiting our player selection in any superficial way. The one and only restriction our club sets is the matter of quality."

He added: "Our club's goal is to win the Russian championship and to be highly competitive in international competitions as well.

"To reach these goals we need a team formed with players which we develop in our academy, as well as the best current and available players from Russia and abroad."

Beiersdorfer's comments came after Zenit coach Luciano Spalletti spoke of the need for tolerance, seemingly in response to the publication of an open letter titled 'Selection Manifesto 12'.

The letter was published on influential Zenit fan website Landscrona and detailed its authors' "principles for selection'' and preferred criteria for future signings.

Spalletti said: "Tolerance for me is the ability to understand and accept differences. Furthermore, being tolerant means that you fight against any kind of stupidity.

"I can personally assure you that I will do everything I can to help those who seek to explain what tolerance is, and the need to respect other cultures and traditions.

"The team has gathered players from different countries and ethnic groups who work together to achieve a common goal. Their combined efforts bring tangible results."

PA Sport - 12/18/12 10:07 AM

white_star wrote:

stevieg8 wrote:

white_star wrote:Why is it disgraceful and why is all of Russia all of a sudden not deserving of hosting a world cup? This is a group of fans not the majority. The club does not have to even take them seriously. They are sharing their point of you through a letter even stating they are not racist. Based on that they cannot be held accountable of wrong doing. We all may disagree with them but generalizing a country and club or even city based on one group of fans doesn't make you guys any better then these fans. Whether you like it or not it's true!!!!

90% of fans polled on pro-Zenit forums agreed with the letter (source: http://rt.com/sport/football/zenit-fans-african-gay-184/), and this is being issued by their largest fan group. A homemade bomb was found with Hulk's face on it, and M'Vila refused to move to the club after receiving death threats. I would never accuse someone of being a racist on an individual level simply because I heard they're a Zenit fan or a Russian or from St. Petersberg, but labeling these fan groups and this letter as racist is not a stretch.

Also, stating you're not racist does not mean you're not racist. Case in point: "White Star is Polish, and therefore is an angry racist who's probably poor. But I'm not racist." Maybe read the content of the article before discussing it, especially if you're going to call people ignorant on this issue.

Actually, maybe you should stop posting about racism in general. You're entitled to your views, but seeing as how wrong they are, you might want to stop embarrassing yourself.

What embarrassing myself? No I have a view and I could express it.

I specifically said "you're entitled toy our views." But having an opinion does not make that opinion valid, and considering the manner in which you've gotten told off by the entirety of this community (twice in the last four days, I think?), maybe you should try taking a second look at yourself rather than calling everyone ELSE ignorant.

When literally everyone is dumping on you, maybe you should stop attacking others and do some introspection for once.

Just as a side-note - claiming people don't understand racism because they haven't experienced it in a European soccer stadium is one of the least intelligent things I've seen posted on here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if your only experience of racism is from being around soccer ultras who are penned in and watched by security guards, you probably don't understand what racism can really manifest itself as.

stevieg8 wrote:

white_star wrote:

stevieg8 wrote:

90% of fans polled on pro-Zenit forums agreed with the letter (source: http://rt.com/sport/football/zenit-fans-african-gay-184/), and this is being issued by their largest fan group. A homemade bomb was found with Hulk's face on it, and M'Vila refused to move to the club after receiving death threats. I would never accuse someone of being a racist on an individual level simply because I heard they're a Zenit fan or a Russian or from St. Petersberg, but labeling these fan groups and this letter as racist is not a stretch.

Also, stating you're not racist does not mean you're not racist. Case in point: "White Star is Polish, and therefore is an angry racist who's probably poor. But I'm not racist." Maybe read the content of the article before discussing it, especially if you're going to call people ignorant on this issue.

Actually, maybe you should stop posting about racism in general. You're entitled to your views, but seeing as how wrong they are, you might want to stop embarrassing yourself.

What embarrassing myself? No I have a view and I could express it.

I specifically said "you're entitled toy our views." But having an opinion does not make that opinion valid, and considering the manner in which you've gotten told off by the entirety of this community (twice in the last four days, I think?), maybe you should try taking a second look at yourself rather than calling everyone ELSE ignorant.

When literally everyone is dumping on you, maybe you should stop attacking others and do some introspection for once.

Just as a side-note - claiming people don't understand racism because they haven't experienced it in a European soccer stadium is one of the least intelligent things I've seen posted on here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if your only experience of racism is from being around soccer ultras who are penned in and watched by security guards, you probably don't understand what racism can really manifest itself as.

And you can because you read it in a book? Please go and don't insult my imtellegence because I did not call anybody stupid! I was defending the club not the supporters but it's not my fault you can't read! I made a point and I dot care if a community of kids and fragiles agree with me.

Let those ultras be racist and xenophobic like they are..nothing we can do or say will stop them. Even if the club goes against their ways, which they should, nothing can change their minds or actions that will follow. If anything, those black players who Zenit will sign can get badly hurt and nobody would want to see that.

I'm sure if it was up to these ultras, they'd be stuck in their late 40's communist ways as well and would be working to take over smaller, less powerful European nations.

Blacks and gays should do the world a favor and stay the fuq out of Russia for the sake of their careers. If Zenit wants to sign you, just say NO.

And to say platini /blatter the *bleep* had the audacity to pick them as hosts 2018.

Be/\/ceCALI wrote:Let those ultras be racist and xenophobic like they are..nothing we can do or say will stop them. Even if the club goes against their ways, which they should, nothing can change their minds or actions that will follow. If anything, those black players who Zenit will sign can get badly hurt and nobody would want to see that.

I'm sure if it was up to these ultras, they'd be stuck in their late 40's communist ways as well and would be working to take over smaller, less powerful European nations.

Blacks and gays should do the world a favor and stay the fuq out of Russia for the sake of their careers. If Zenit wants to sign you, just say NO.

It's the fans tbh and not Zenit the club obviously since they signed Witsel and Hulk. A few of the local players think like these fans too unfortunately...

Tbh, this wll be a UEFA issue. Fans of a club are expressly not allowed to racially attack players in any form. Clubs are subject to fines, temporary suspensions and, in the end, complete suspension from European competition. All it takes is for a player to file a grievance with UEFA. Only reason nothing has happened so far is that Witsel and Hulk haven't officially complained... i think they have a responsibility to do so.

Yeah, I know it's the fans and not Zenit as an organization itself. It can be a UEFA issue, and sure Hulk and Witsel should speak up in theory, but how do we know how the fans would react to that?

Would it be safe for these 2 players to speak out against these fans? It's easy for us to say that as outsiders, and it is what they should do because it seems like the right thing to do definitely, but tbh I would fear for Hulk and Witsel's safety. Maybe there's a reason Dick Advocaat said what he said as well.

I put nothing past the Russians in general and their fanbase and am not surprised by anything they do and are capable of. Very nationalistic people (nothing wrong with that) , but also very egotistical, disdainful, and intolerant. Excuse me if that's xenophobic, and I have some Russian friends myself, but that's just the way I see them in general.

white_star wrote:

stevieg8 wrote:

white_star wrote:

What embarrassing myself? No I have a view and I could express it.

I specifically said "you're entitled toy our views." But having an opinion does not make that opinion valid, and considering the manner in which you've gotten told off by the entirety of this community (twice in the last four days, I think?), maybe you should try taking a second look at yourself rather than calling everyone ELSE ignorant.

When literally everyone is dumping on you, maybe you should stop attacking others and do some introspection for once.

Just as a side-note - claiming people don't understand racism because they haven't experienced it in a European soccer stadium is one of the least intelligent things I've seen posted on here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if your only experience of racism is from being around soccer ultras who are penned in and watched by security guards, you probably don't understand what racism can really manifest itself as.

And you can because you read it in a book? Please go and don't insult my imtellegence because I did not call anybody stupid! I was defending the club not the supporters but it's not my fault you can't read! I made a point and I dot care if a community of kids and fragiles agree with me.

Wow, great job showing you know nothing about me. I haven't asserted anything about why I know about racism, while you have repeatedly said you understand it do to being a Wisla Ultra. I'm going off of statements you've made, while you're making assumptions not based anywhere within miles of fact.

The part of your arguments I have disagreed with have NOT been the defense of the club or the city. I actually think you're right on that. You have repeatedly said that the letter wasn't disgraceful, though, and specifically pointed out how they say they're not racist - I'll edit my post in just a minute to provide the quotes from earlier on in the thread. You took quite a 180 on that position once you realized how wrong you were, and I actually find that commendable; as angry as my advice made you, it seems you actually took it, so props for that. Stop trying to act like I misread your original posts, though, they're all here for everyone to see.

The posts to which I'm referring: "LOL I see some people don't understand what these fans are trying to say but I'm not surprised."

"Everyone jumps the gun on racism without thinking about it."

SaintJoe: "The letter is disgraceful" white_star: "Why is it disgraceful?"

"They are sharing their point of you through a letter even stating they are not racist. Based on that they cannot be held accountable of wrong doing."

As you can see, you've made several statements defending the fans and claiming this isn't racist, then switched to the "stop generalizing" argument later on. I'm not responding to the generalization argument, because I agree with you on that. I'm responding to the fact that you claim to understand what constitutes racism better than everyone on here, and your reasoning is because you've been around racists in football stadiums. This is faulty for a lot of reasons, and I repeat - claiming you understand racism because of a sports game is painful to listen to. It's actually making me feel less prepared for my upcoming finals, because I'm worried it's making me less intelligent by listening to it. Please god, if not for the sake of a useless online reputation than at least for the sake of my sanity, stop saying something that makes me want to pound my head against the wall.

Never said it wasn't racist!

THC 10 wrote:

white_star wrote:
This group is not 90% of the fans. Do you know why it is labeled the largest because not every fan belongs to a group!!! I was defending the city and club not the fans that wrote the letter get your shot straight and plug your vaginas. This whole generalizing thing is what pisses me off. Why don't you lot stop talking about subjects you have not experienced or seen for yourselfs, the Internet and media is not always right!

stevieg8 wrote:
90% of fans polled on pro-Zenit forums agreed with the letter (source: http://rt.com/sport/football/zenit-fans-african-gay-184/), and this is being issued by their largest fan group. A homemade bomb was found with Hulk's face on it, and M'Vila refused to move to the club after receiving death threats. I would never accuse someone of being a racist on an individual level simply because I heard they're a Zenit fan or a Russian or from St. Petersberg, but labeling these fan groups and this letter as racist is not a stretch.

Also, stating you're not racist does not mean you're not racist. Case in point: "White Star is Polish, and therefore is an angry racist who's probably poor. But I'm not racist." Maybe read the content of the article before discussing it, especially if you're going to call people ignorant on this issue.

Actually, maybe you should stop posting about racism in general. You're entitled to your views, but seeing as how wrong they are, you might want to stop embarrassing yourself.

Perhaps you should consider actually reading and comprehending what people are saying. You make it seem as if you aren't speaking with posters who are well known for their intelligence.

Meant to post this earlier, but thanks THC! I'm flattered, you're a pretty smart guy yourself

That means a lot to me, stevieg, I always enjoy reading your thoughts. Those type of comments keep me motivated to keep writing and sharing my thoughts and ideas with you guys.