Re: FFS: Zenit's largest fan group write open letter to owners

by Guest Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:32 pm

That means a lot to me, stevieg, I always enjoy reading your thoughts. Those type of comments keep me motivated to keep writing and sharing my thoughts and ideas with you guys.

by McLewis Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:02 pm

rac-ism

Noun

1. A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 racial prejudice or discrimination
------------------------------------------------

1. We hear all the time of Russian fans throwing bananas at black players. Why do they do this? Because they see black men as monkeys and believe white players are superior to them in every way possible.

2. These Zenit fans have quite literally said they do not want black players at their club because they believe in a tradition that holds that the club should remain 100% white. It may well have been a coincidence that this club has never signed a black player before Hulk and Witsel, but that's not the case anymore. It's now textbook discrimination and prejudice.

Both of the above meet the exact criteria for Merriam-Webster's definition of racism.

But no, I'm looking forward to White Star continuing to say this is anything but that Laughing

by The Franchise Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:00 pm

Minor correction Lewis.

They signed Bruno Alves a couple years back.

by norton Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:09 am

Don't they have an Italian coach and at least an Italian player. They are not Slavs.

by 7amood11 Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:12 am

"Zenit Saint Petersburg fans are demanding there should be no players from Africa or Latin America as well as gays in the team's lineup."

Also

"Many are also unhappy with the club’s purchase of star-forward Hulk as there was even a home-made bomb with a picture of the Brazilian on it discovered outside Zenit’s training base."

I don't expect Hulk to stay in Russia long, especially considering his recent bust-up with Spalletti.

by 7amood11 Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:14 am

white_star wrote:Never said it wasn't racist!

You were heavily implying it.

white_star wrote:
vanDEEZ wrote:
white_star wrote:LOL I see some people don't understand what these fans are trying to say but I'm not surprised.

then what are they trying to say?

why even put in that kinda statement without explaining?

Because I am not an encyclopedia read what it says! Everyone jumps the gun on racism without thinking about it.

by VivaStPauli Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:48 pm

white_star wrote:LOL I see some people don't understand what these fans are trying to say but I'm not surprised.

Oh I understand them quite well, they're saying "Hello dear club management. We, the fans, are humungous racists and homophobes and really would not like to have our small-minded world view challenged by reality, so would you please lessen our football club, so we can all pretend that we live in Hitler-conquered eastern territories? Thanks in advance, XOXOXO,
Ku Klux Ultras, St. Petersburg
PS: Bortschtsch evening at my Grandma's on friday, wear a tie.
PPS: No homos."

by VanDeezNuts Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:42 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
white_star wrote:LOL I see some people don't understand what these fans are trying to say but I'm not surprised.

Oh I understand them quite well, they're saying "Hello dear club management. We, the fans, are humungous racists and homophobes and really would not like to have our small-minded world view challenged by reality, so would you please lessen our football club, so we can all pretend that we live in Hitler-conquered eastern territories? Thanks in advance, XOXOXO,
Ku Klux Ultras, St. Petersburg
PS: Bortschtsch evening at my Grandma's on friday, wear a tie.
PPS: No homos."

haha post of the year. some one book mark this.

by free_cat Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:47 pm

stevieg8 wrote:
white_star wrote:
stevieg8 wrote:

I specifically said "you're entitled toy our views." But having an opinion does not make that opinion valid, and considering the manner in which you've gotten told off by the entirety of this community (twice in the last four days, I think?), maybe you should try taking a second look at yourself rather than calling everyone ELSE ignorant.

When literally everyone is dumping on you, maybe you should stop attacking others and do some introspection for once.

Just as a side-note - claiming people don't understand racism because they haven't experienced it in a European soccer stadium is one of the least intelligent things I've seen posted on here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if your only experience of racism is from being around soccer ultras who are penned in and watched by security guards, you probably don't understand what racism can really manifest itself as.

And you can because you read it in a book? Please go and don't insult my imtellegence because I did not call anybody stupid! I was defending the club not the supporters but it's not my fault you can't read! I made a point and I dot care if a community of kids and fragiles agree with me.

Wow, great job showing you know nothing about me. I haven't asserted anything about why I know about racism, while you have repeatedly said you understand it do to being a Wisla Ultra. I'm going off of statements you've made, while you're making assumptions not based anywhere within miles of fact.

The part of your arguments I have disagreed with have NOT been the defense of the club or the city. I actually think you're right on that. You have repeatedly said that the letter wasn't disgraceful, though, and specifically pointed out how they say they're not racist - I'll edit my post in just a minute to provide the quotes from earlier on in the thread. You took quite a 180 on that position once you realized how wrong you were, and I actually find that commendable; as angry as my advice made you, it seems you actually took it, so props for that. Stop trying to act like I misread your original posts, though, they're all here for everyone to see.

The posts to which I'm referring: "LOL I see some people don't understand what these fans are trying to say but I'm not surprised."

"Everyone jumps the gun on racism without thinking about it."

SaintJoe: "The letter is disgraceful" white_star: "Why is it disgraceful?"

"They are sharing their point of you through a letter even stating they are not racist. Based on that they cannot be held accountable of wrong doing."

As you can see, you've made several statements defending the fans and claiming this isn't racist, then switched to the "stop generalizing" argument later on. I'm not responding to the generalization argument, because I agree with you on that. I'm responding to the fact that you claim to understand what constitutes racism better than everyone on here, and your reasoning is because you've been around racists in football stadiums. This is faulty for a lot of reasons, and I repeat - claiming you understand racism because of a sports game is painful to listen to. It's actually making me feel less prepared for my upcoming finals, because I'm worried it's making me less intelligent by listening to it. Please god, if not for the sake of a useless online reputation than at least for the sake of my sanity, stop saying something that makes me want to pound my head against the wall.

Stevieg8 is rapidly becoming a favourite of mine.

Post of the month.

by Abramovich Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:52 pm

Hulk to PSG, We will take Witsel.

by RealGunner Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:13 pm

Hulk Arshavin swap pls

by white_star Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:25 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
white_star wrote:LOL I see some people don't understand what these fans are trying to say but I'm not surprised.

Oh I understand them quite well, they're saying "Hello dear club management. We, the fans, are humungous racists and homophobes and really would not like to have our small-minded world view challenged by reality, so would you please lessen our football club, so we can all pretend that we live in Hitler-conquered eastern territories? Thanks in advance, XOXOXO,
Ku Klux Ultras, St. Petersburg
PS: Bortschtsch evening at my Grandma's on friday, wear a tie.
PPS: No homos."

Good post but I think they are entitled to their beliefs and traditions good or bad as long there is no violence involved. Not defending their ideas just not going to act like I can stop their views!

by Guest Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:32 pm

white_star wrote:
Good post but I think they are entitled to their beliefs and traditions good or bad as long there is no violence involved. Not defending their ideas just not going to act like I can stop their views!

stevieg8 wrote:
Just as a side-note - claiming people don't understand racism because they haven't experienced it in a European soccer stadium is one of the least intelligent things I've seen posted on here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if your only experience of racism is from being around soccer ultras who are penned in and watched by security guards, you probably don't understand what racism can really manifest itself as.

This group is not content being entitled to their views, they expect the club to hear out their demands and I'm sure they won't be happy with the clubs most recent signings. The Hulk bomb leads me to believe something tragic might happen - I know that doesn't mean all ultras will that far, but we're not off to a good start. They just don't come across as the type of racists who are willing to sit and watch as "their" club starts welcoming minorities and homosexuals.

by B-Mac Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:47 pm

Lazio of Russia :coffee:

by VivaStPauli Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:48 pm

white_star wrote:
Good post but I think they are entitled to their beliefs and traditions good or bad as long there is no violence involved. Not defending their ideas just not going to act like I can stop their views!

Of course everybody is allowed to have their voice heard in a proper discurse, but that doesn't mean that their position isn't objectively retarded, and racist despite beginning the letter with "we're not racist", which pretty much always is a clear sign you're dealing with a racist.

by Swanhends Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:51 pm

Russia 2018, Uniting the World!!!! Pride of FIFA!!!

by VivaStPauli Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:53 pm

Thanks to the Russian Orthodox Church it might actually be as homophobic and xenophobic by 2018 as Qatar is now :bow:

by FalcaoPunch Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:59 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Thanks to the Russian Orthodox Church it might actually be as homophobic and xenophobic by 2018 as Qatar is now

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:12 pm

free_cat wrote:Stevieg8 is rapidly becoming a favourite of mine.

Completely agreed

Also Vivas what a goat post :bow:

by DuringTheWar Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:22 pm

Whether they are racist, maybe they are, but from reading the letter alone, I'd call them nationalists. I remember the shitstorm when arsenal didn't field a single English player, this is on a similar path but further down the road.

by VivaStPauli Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:26 pm

They're nationalists with a ethnicity-bound understanding of citizenship, though, then.

Which is the basis for fascism. Boom.

by white_star Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:27 pm

THC 10 wrote:
white_star wrote:
Good post but I think they are entitled to their beliefs and traditions good or bad as long there is no violence involved. Not defending their ideas just not going to act like I can stop their views!

stevieg8 wrote:
Just as a side-note - claiming people don't understand racism because they haven't experienced it in a European soccer stadium is one of the least intelligent things I've seen posted on here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if your only experience of racism is from being around soccer ultras who are penned in and watched by security guards, you probably don't understand what racism can really manifest itself as.

This group is not content being entitled to their views, they expect the club to hear out their demands and I'm sure they won't be happy with the clubs most recent signings. The Hulk bomb leads me to believe something tragic might happen - I know that doesn't mean all ultras will that far, but we're not off to a good start. They just don't come across as the type of racists who are willing to sit and watch as "their" club starts welcoming minorities and homosexuals.

Exactly the violence is why no one will take it seriously. There is no need for home made bombs and violence. The club needs to reject this dumb idea and the fans have to except of they are trully loyal to the club. If they don't they are not true fans but just racist Russians

VivaStPauli wrote:
white_star wrote:
Good post but I think they are entitled to their beliefs and traditions good or bad as long there is no violence involved. Not defending their ideas just not going to act like I can stop their views!

Of course everybody is allowed to have their voice heard in a proper discurse, but that doesn't mean that their position isn't objectively retarded, and racist despite beginning the letter with "we're not racist", which pretty much always is a clear sign you're dealing with a racist.

Their view is idiotic but it's theirs. The club need to stand up to it. Trust me as a former ultra even if a club does not meet demands we stick to the club unless your views on racism are stronger then your love for the club. Like I said above club or racism the fans must choose.

by DuringTheWar Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:57 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:They're nationalists with a ethnicity-bound understanding of citizenship, though, then.

Which is the basis for fascism. Boom.

If there were any black Russian footballers maybe they would revise the language they used. I don't know a single black Russian footballer

by TheRedStag Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:58 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
white_star wrote:LOL I see some people don't understand what these fans are trying to say but I'm not surprised.

Oh I understand them quite well, they're saying "Hello dear club management. We, the fans, are humungous racists and homophobes and really would not like to have our small-minded world view challenged by reality, so would you please lessen our football club, so we can all pretend that we live in Hitler-conquered eastern territories? Thanks in advance, XOXOXO,
Ku Klux Ultras, St. Petersburg
PS: Bortschtsch evening at my Grandma's on friday, wear a tie.
PPS: No homos."

Viva

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:53 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Whether they are racist, maybe they are, but from reading the letter alone, I'd call them nationalists. I remember the shitstorm when arsenal didn't field a single English player, this is on a similar path but further down the road.

Why expand to Slav, Baltic and Scandinavian states if that is the case? Clearly we're talking about an ethnicity and not a nation. I'm sure some of those countries have black players. Would you advise them to play for Zenit because you think the fans won't care about the color of his skin due to his nationality? Who's to say they would even accept a black Russian player when some users here still doubt Balotelli is Italian. And that line of logic certainly falls short when talking about gay players, who would still be shunned even if they were Russian.

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