Possession Football secret: players or tactics?

by Real Kandahar Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:48 pm

we may have discussed it in the past, but i thought of an excellent discussion topic for all of us.

Even as a Madridista, I completely admire and adore Barcelona one touch possession football, (not when they overplay it and instead need to be direct, but im talking about generally.)

That made me think... what makes them soo good at keeping the ball for so long and being so good at one touch football? Is it the players they have or the tactics they have employed?
Surely, it would be completely inaccurate to say that Barcelona players have natural ability to keep the ball, but why don't other teams with world renowned midfielders or team able to do that???

IF its the tactics, why can't other teams successfully employ it "Consistently"?? That leads me to my new question, If teams like Madrid, United, City, Bayern and Juve want to employ such possession football, what "non-barcelona" players would theyneed to sign to achieve a Consistent, and dominating posssession football? (Yes i understand these teams can play possession football, but not like barca, which occasionally gets 72% of possession at times, even against TOP teams)

So is it the players or the tactics?? and what "Combination of non-barca Players" a team could sign would successfully help them play a dominating possession one touch football against TOP teams? (aka, being able to keep 60% possession against barcelona or munich for example)

NOTE: i am not advocating for possession football, nor am i saying its a better style of play than "Direct" or "Counter attacking " football, i am simply focusing on this brand of football for the sake of Discussion.

To start this off, i won't answer the first question (about whether its players or tactics, ill leave that to u) BUT i'll name my own starting 11 which would potentially accomplish what i am talking about (for my team Madrid)

iker
Arbeloa...Ramos... TSilva... Lahm
...............M'Villa..............
..........Modric.....Sneijder....
...D.Siva.....Benzema.......Aguero

by Valkyrja Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:42 pm

Iker
Lahm Ramos Silva Marcelo
Sahin M'vila
Silva Ozil Cristiano
Benzema

Cristiano is a must in any team. For example, Barca needs now a "Ronaldo", his runs, dribbling, strength, pace, long shots are exactly what they are lacking.

by billionmillion Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:12 pm

Kizu wrote:
Iker
Lahm Ramos Silva Marcelo
Sahin M'vila
Silva Ozil Cristiano
Benzema

Cristiano is a must in any team. For example, Barca needs now a "Ronaldo", his runs, dribbling, strength, pace, long shots are exactly what they are lacking.

I dont know what you mean with strengh, by one touch he falls down. barca has better dribblers, runners than him. they dont need it. if you mean speed Barca have 3 ronaldo type player Afellay Cuenca and Tello with good dribbling and speed. But they prefer Sanchez type player and rightfully so. in barca technique over physic

by Die Borussen Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:18 pm

its because they've been playing together since their birth
which made them play to perfection
the specific style of play
possesion football

you cant just suddenly be a possession team, at least not with the characteristics of barca
wether we had or not the line up you mentioned barca would still dominate possession against us

by the xcx Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:20 pm

Mvila?

He isint even best for his country at his position atm.

by billionmillion Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:28 pm

Ninis wrote:its because they've been playing together since their birth
which made them play to perfection
the specific style of play
possesion football

you cant just suddenly be a possession team, at least not with the characteristics of barca
wether we had or not the line up you mentioned barca would still dominate possession against us

Sanchez, Alves, Alba, Song, Mascerano, Villa new comers.

others Messi, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta are playing together regularly since 2005. Pedro since 2008, Tello 2010. none of them are playing together since their birth

by Real Kandahar Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:33 pm

i agree with billion, many new comers , namely villa, mascherano, even alves, alba , and sanchez, are not "playing together since birth" they are new additions who play beautiful one touch football with the team.. so don't associate this brand of football with player's natural ability OR them having old chemistry... there's something more than that involved

and please try to answer the questions asked originally

by Die Borussen Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:34 pm

billionmillion wrote:
Ninis wrote:its because they've been playing together since their birth
which made them play to perfection
the specific style of play
possesion football

you cant just suddenly be a possession team, at least not with the characteristics of barca
wether we had or not the line up you mentioned barca would still dominate possession against us
Sanchez, Alves, Alba, Song, Mascerano, Villa new comers.

others Messi, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta are playing together regularly since 2005. Pedro since 2008, Tello 2010. none of them are playing together since their birth

at are you talking about?
im not refering to professional games
most of the players you mentioned are from barca's academy

maybe they werent playing "together" but from kids they learned to play barca way, from kids they developed the specific style and now play it to perfection

several newcomers certainly wont flaw it

by Zealous Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:38 pm

by Onyx Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:41 pm

Both really imo.

by jibers Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:48 pm

doesnt exist. Barcelona are the only team to do what they are doing now to this extent. The bigger teams will always have more possession. Teams dont play possession football. Barcelona just have ridiculouisly techniallly proficient players that can keep it better than anyone else. tiki taka is a myth

by Zealous Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:53 pm

Swansea of last year want a word with you.

by jibers Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:59 pm

Zealous wrote:Swansea of last year want a word with you.

what possession football? Passing back and forth between mf and defence. You cant even compare them to Barcelona its a disrace. Barcelona do that in theor opponents half, hell even united are more of a possession side than those clowns, seeing as we had more of the ball at home and away vs them. passing back and forth between defence is just boring defensive football. Barcelona are always in the oppositions half bar that copa final vs barca where they were passing between their defence to piss people off. Teams that buid from the back will most likeley have more pissession as they will most likely try and play it to the man in front of them, not hoof it up top. Juve are meant to be a possession side, look at them in Europe ffs. Now compare that game to Shaktar vs Barcelona. Possession is more to do with the personel

by Real Kandahar Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:00 pm

everyone is avoiding the questions,

and IF it is the set of technical players making possession possible, then what combination of players non barca could successfully implement it??

Dortmound vs. Bayern or Arsenal vs City would completely discount your view Jibers... in those instances, team with "lesser" players dominated possession against stronger players...

ALSO, why was galacticos team not a very strong possession team against strong european sides? having Zidane, Guti, Figo, Beckham, Raul, Ronaldo, R.Carlos, and still not dominating possession 70%+ ?? why not? according to you jibers, that should have been the case....

by Onyx Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:00 pm

They were back 4'ing a lot vs Benfica tonight. :coffee:

by Real Kandahar Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:03 pm

jibers wrote:
Zealous wrote:Swansea of last year want a word with you.

what possession football? Passing back and forth between mf and defence. You cant even compare them to Barcelona its a disrace. Barcelona do that in theor opponents half, hell even united are more of a possession side than those clowns, seeing as we had more of the ball at home and away vs them. passing back and forth between defence is just boring defensive football. Barcelona are always in the oppositions half bar that copa final vs barca where they were passing between their defence to piss people off. Teams that buid from the back will most likeley have more pissession as they will most likely try and play it to the man in front of them, not hoof it up top. Juve are meant to be a possession side, look at them in Europe ffs. Now compare that game to Shaktar vs Barcelona. Possession is more to do with the personel

its much more complex than that,,, if it were that simple , why don't other top teams, not able to do that??? why are barcelona able to take ball so fast back from United, Chlesea, Madrid, Arsenal???

rationally, if we assume it is as simple as what you said, teams that take lead against barca, should play possession football and see the game through, but noo thats not the case, barca as soon as kick off, are RIGHT on top of the ball most of the time and attackk...

by Onyx Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:05 pm

I'm sure it's possible to match Barca at their own game. Teams need to know how to press effectively and keep the ball when they press.

by jibers Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:08 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:I'm sure it's possible to match Barca at their own game. Teams need to know how to press effectively and keep the ball when they press.

no team has had the ball more that them in a long time. The problem is that when teams lose the ball barca are better at keeping the ball than them so they will have more of the ball. Possession football doesnt exist. Barca are just the best at keeping the ball.

@ Real Kanadar

Galacticos played good football, again possession wanst that big a deal, they won the ball and were based on individuals performing. That team was more about the indivuiduals than the systems.

by Onyx Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:10 pm

Possession = keeping the ball?

by jibers Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:19 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:Possession = keeping the ball?

yes so every team keeps the ball then? just that some keep the ball beter than others.

by Real Kandahar Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:20 pm

OK jibers , for your sake, let's say its not possession and its "keeping the ball"
Then WHY can barca keep the ball better than any other team, while there are MANY talented set of players across the world...? who as a team could beat barca at keeping the ball...?

by Die Borussen Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:22 pm

Ninis wrote:its because they've been playing together since their birth
which made them play to perfection
the specific style of play
possesion football

you cant just suddenly be a possession team, at least not with the characteristics of barca
wether we had or not the line up you mentioned barca would still dominate possession against us

by jibers Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:25 pm

Real Kandahar wrote:OK jibers , for your sake, let's say its not possession and its "keeping the ball"
Then WHY can barca keep the ball better than any other team, while there are MANY talented set of players across the world...? who as a team could beat barca at keeping the ball...?

where are they as talented? Barcelona players grewup with being able to play one touches and feed off each other. Thats the difference. How many teams have 6+ playters that have been brough up under the same styel? Ajax wityh the same youth syustem dominated possession against their opponents in van gaals and michels era. Ajax last season had more of the ball than madrid but madrid battered them. Its their learning culture. Barcelona have played with this specific sytlye. Under Rijkaard they almost had 7)+ possession against Mous chelsea. Against Arsenal they dominated 60+ plus. Agaisnt us when we won the cl they saw a lot more of the ball than us and had more of it than us at home. Its just the way they are brough up and the spanish style has its roots from barceloina as well. Cruyffs coaching and philosophy influenced spain.

Barcelona are the only ones that do it so possession football is a myth, its just Barcelonas fooball coupled with 2 once in a generation players and a once in 3 generation player.

by Zealous Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:31 pm

jibers wrote:
Galacticos played good football, again possession wanst that big a deal, they won the ball and were based on individuals performing. That team was more about the indivuiduals than the systems.

They were more concerned with goals than side ways passes. Cool

by Real Kandahar Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:45 pm

Zealous wrote:
jibers wrote:
Galacticos played good football, again possession wanst that big a deal, they won the ball and were based on individuals performing. That team was more about the indivuiduals than the systems.

They were more concerned with goals than side ways passes.

well maybe if they were concerned with side way passing, Madrid's horrible defense would not have been exposed time after time after time, and we might have won many cups... as we had amazing potential to score but even more threat of being scored upon....

Jibers, you provide some excellent points, but would you not agree that players like Alves, Villa, Mascherano, Sanchez, Affely, Abidal, are players who came to barca and quickly caught up with "keeping the ball" when in their original teams, they were not trained specifically to "keep the ball"?

That is kind of a counter argument to hypothesis of Barca being succesful at keeping the ball due to them growing up together or playing with eachother forever... how did these newly brought players suddenly grasp the idea of possesssion football and instead being direct, were better at keeping the ball so abruptly??

And also, i could agree that Xaviesta and Messi+busquets could be a very strong possession side with immense chemistry... but why can another team, dominate 70% possession against any other team but barcelona?? I mean, even Arsenal and United, which are best at keeping the ball in England, do NOT keep 70%+ possesion in MOST of their matches, specially against other big sides...

why cant a ... Alonso-Ozil-Sneijder midfield with a forward of Silva-Benzema-Rooney/Aguero, be able to dominate keeping the ball against alll other teams except barca, (if ur chemistry argument holds thats why i exempted barca)

I remember 2-2 barcelona copa del rey with madrid in camp nou, Real Madrid went out for it, and almost matched barcelona with a 48% possession, so maybe its the tactics?

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