Catalan and Basque independence processes.

A more centralised and unified bureaucracy would allow for the more competent to run the entire European economy though... you'd have those that actually know what they're doing running everything rather than trying to offer help to "incompetents" from outside.

Also, I was referring to a unified CONTINENTAL EUROPE (believe I said as much) therefore Britain wouldn't necessarily be a part unless it wanted to.

RedOranje wrote:

Also, I was referring to a unified CONTINENTAL EUROPE (believe I said as much) therefore Britain wouldn't necessarily be a part unless it wanted to.

you started with referring to britain's position, not me... they're a part of the eu and as one of the richer countries they are already handing money to the broken ones...

A more centralised and unified bureaucracy would allow for the more competent to run the entire European economy though... you'd have those that actually know what they're doing running everything rather than trying to offer help to "incompetents" from outside.

that would never happen... the people in the european parliament are local politicians (there's elections and everything) with higher pay, nothing else... plus even if a sort of fiscal union was ever implemented, the logistics of that would be more expensive and more bureaucratic than current governments as every single country would have to provide a legion of clerks and other employees to help them understand the local economy... not exactly a solution for countries struggling with crippling debt at the moment

I started by questioning Britain's issue with a "united European (sub)continent"... that clearly indicates that I was referring to the continental Europe (hence the inclusion of the word).

Another brick in the wall:

After the 3-2, Camp Nou started chanting "In-Inde-Independence" in an unprecedented display of independentism by Barça fans. This has never happened before in Camp Nou, although I already witnessed something similar in the Copa del Rey final:



Let's go catalans! Let's Go Artur Mas!

Decentralization is good, spanish are controlling. I support the catalan cause, is full on independence necessary as compared to full on federalism?

I see no advantages except having own military, national team and foreign service (embassies and policy) are these really necessary?

That's how those who are running the protests will earn their money later on

Yuri Yukuv wrote:Decentralization is good, spanish are controlling. I support the catalan cause, is full on independence necessary as compared to full on federalism?

I see no advantages except having own military, national team and foreign service (embassies and policy) are these really necessary?

Catalans have been trying to create a Spanish federeation or confederation since the 19th Century. Spain has never allowed that, either by the arms (military coups in 1874, 1936 and 1981 all were strongly motivated by catalan claims) or by imposing their laws/majority, like they did with the modification of our Statute of autonomy, that 70% of catalans approved in a referendum and was later watered down at Spanish parliament and further important parts were deemed unconstitutional by the constitutional tribunal in 2010.

150 years of asking a federal state is enough. We need to stop asking things to Spanish, and just get our own state.

Yeah, some costs would be higher, but we would also have some gains, like more international visualization (more tourism, exports, etc).

And Catalunya won't have an army, so that's pretty much the biggest expense of being an independent country that we won't have.

RealGunner wrote:That's how those who are running the protests will earn their money later on

Which for us it will be good, because now those who are running this stuff live in Madrid and spend the money there, plus that they usually do their duties without defending catalan interests, even the contrary, going against catalan interests.

Catalan President Artur Mas has called today for advanced elections to be hold on 25th November 2012.
The president stated that the will showed in the street must be translated to votes to show there's a majority for catalan autodetermination.
CIU (our president's party), ERC, ICV and SI (big majority in the catalan parliament) are preparing a resolution to support catalan autodetermination.

Wow this catalan movement seems to be the real deal as its seeping into financial chatter, were seeing selloffs and higher borrowing costs for spain because of this. Some of my colleagues think that although there is threat of secession it is small as europeans and EU is against this, man doubt that if a secession does happen that they will be allowed to automatically allowed to join eu and euro, this would result in cutoff from ECB funding which could be catastrophic.

Free_cat how likely is a secession in your pov?

--------------------------

From FT

Spain has entered a constitutional crisis. The decision of Catalonia’s nationalist government to call a snap election in November – which in practice will amount to a referendum on independence – has opened the way to Catalan secession. That decision, in turn, may give a lift to Basque separatists, now running neck and neck with mainstream nationalists in regional government elections due next month, after winning the largest number of Basque Country seats last year in local and general elections.
As a Spain trapped in the eurozone crisis tries to battle its way through a wrenching recession, it must now contemplate the real possibility that its plurinational state, which replaced the suffocatingly centralist Franco dictatorship with highly devolved regional government, may break up.


The eurozone crisis that has brought down governments across Europe’s periphery now threatens the survival of a nation-state. The north-south fractures inside the EU are starting to open up within member states.
When the Soviet Union and some of its buffer states broke up at the end of the cold war, EU leaders on the whole regarded this exercise of the democratic right to self-determination as a good thing. But the idea that separatism could seep into the settled structures of western Europe is wholly alien to them, notwithstanding frequent inter-regional tensions.
Such tensions are a regular feature of the tug-of-war in, for example, Italy and Belgium, between a more prosperous north and a relatively less wealthy south. In Spain, where for a combination of economic, historic and cultural reasons the industrial revolution first took root among Basques and Catalans – peoples with a deep sense of nationhood and linguistic identity – the “national question” is always alive.
The post-Franco transition to democracy resolved this by restoring ancient rights to what a constitutional neologism terms the “historic nationalities” – essentially the Basques and Catalans – but by disguising this with grants of self-rule to regions that had never sought autonomy.
The economic crisis has mercilessly exposed the financial incontinence of some of these baronial fiefs, such as Valencia, controlled by the ruling Partido Popular of Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s prime minister. Catalonia, amounting to one-fifth of Spain’s economic output, is also heavily in debt.
The mainstream nationalist Catalan government led by Artur Mas was elected to secure the same rights as the Basques, who collect their own taxes.
Mr Rajoy, whose centre-right PP seems to want to use the crisis to recentralise Spain, rejected this last week.
A majority of Catalans feels Madrid takes too much of local income to redistribute elsewhere. The clamour for independence has become mainstream. Sentiment turned when the constitutional court in Madrid – acting on a petition from Mr Rajoy’s PP – struck down democratically approved enhancements to Catalan home rule. This is not just about money. But austerity is politically toxic and intrinsically centrifugal.
Nor is this, as some observers argue, a textbook example of how EU integration dissolves national cohesion in less than homogeneous states. The most proximate cause of Spain’s identity politics is Franco’s ruthless attempt to expunge Basque and Catalan identity. EU membership, by contrast, spread wealth throughout all of Spain, albeit unevenly, for the first time in history – and devolution was part of the reason.
But that model appears to have run its course, and Mr Rajoy and Mr Mas have backed themselves into irreconcilable corners. Is there a way out?
Felipe González, former Socialist prime minister and emblematic (if tarnished) figure of the democratic transition, last week said the constitution needed to be recast into a more federalist mould. King Juan Carlos, whose image has also been diminished by controversy, last week recalled the spirit of that transition, tacitly invoking the national pacts that made democracy possible.
A feasible way forward would be to combine these ideas: a new all-party pact, including Basques and Catalans, to confront the economic emergency and reform the constitution along more federal lines. But federalism is about trying to spread prosperity and iron out regional inequity. It is not clear all actors in the present drama understand this.

Officials in Brussels have also said that Catalonia would automatically leave the EU, and might have to abandon the euro and print its own currency.

"A new state, if it wants to join the European Union, has to apply to become a member like any state," Barroso said this week. "And all the other member states have to give their consent."

Garcia-Margallo warned that Catalonia or any other Spanish region that achieved independence would find itself at "the back of the queue" for joining the EU.

The independence demonstration sets a further challenge for Rajoy as he copes with 25% unemployment and a double-dip recession, and decides whether to request a bailout by the European Central Bank and fellow eurozone countries.

"Catalonia has serious deficit and employment problems and this is not the moment for messing around," Rajoy said before the demonstration.

Mas's government has launched several austerity programmes as it struggles to bring down its deficit, and ratings agencies give its debt junk status.

Economists doubt it will hit deficit targets set by the central government this year, however, and Rajoy's government – which is keen to persuade fellow eurozone countries it can control overspending regional governments – has threatened to intervene and take direct control of regional finances where that happens.

Mas has threatened to call elections if that is done in Catalonia, believing it would provoke a wave of nationalist sentiment. Catalans pay between ¤12bn and ¤16bn more in taxes each year to Madrid than they receive back, with the excess going to poorer regions such as Andalusia and Extremadura.

---------

It gets a lot more complicated if they're suddenly not part of the european union or the euro-zone (although frankly I don't see why any country would want to be part of the euro-zone right now).

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
It gets a lot more complicated if they're suddenly not part of the european union or the euro-zone (although frankly I don't see why any country would want to be part of the euro-zone right now).

They can't really force us not to use the Euro. Other countries not in the monetary union use the Euro, like Montenegro.
Also, as you say, people doesn't care much if we are or not in the EU after independence. If they allow us, great. If not, we will try to be a switzerland.

Yuri Yukuv wrote:Wow this catalan movement seems to be the real deal as its seeping into financial chatter, were seeing selloffs and higher borrowing costs for spain because of this. Some of my colleagues think that although there is threat of secession it is small as europeans and EU is against this, man doubt that if a secession does happen that they will be allowed to automatically allowed to join eu and euro, this would result in cutoff from ECB funding which could be catastrophic.

Free_cat how likely is a secession in your pov?

I don't know how likely it is. It's not an easy path. We first need a political majority that wants to exercise our right of self-determination. This majority exists and will most likely be confirmed and enlarged in the elections on the 25th of november.

We then need to hold a referendum on creating a catalan state. This will be very difficult as spanish laws don't allow catalan government to make such a referendum without central government permission, and central government will obviously deny it. Our President said yesterday that if Spanish law doesn't allow the referendum, it will be done anyway, which I think it's democratic and makes sense. However, Spain might try to stop the referendum putting our President in jail or closing down the electoral colleges with the policemen. Catalan police should then stop spanish police from doing any of those things.

If we finally can hold a referendum, we must then win it. Poll show a big majority for independence (50% in favour, 25% against, rest undecided or don't care). However, going into the referendum Spain will put all their media trying to scare catalans, and I don't know if it can work.

If we win the referendum, we must then create the catalan state, which will need of some negotiation with Spain and the international community. Spain could also apply the constitution and send the army to catalonia and invade us, but that seems very unlikely.

So it is a hard and difficult path, mostly because of Spain's intransigence and undemocratic culture, but IMO we are in a point of no return, at least when it comes to making a referendum. If we will win it or not, that's another thing, but I'm sure there will be a referendum in the next 4 years at most.

Really interesting stuff.

Found it hilarious when we had a German supporting Germanisati... ahem... Europeanisation, and then a Brit saying its a stupid idea . Ahh so many national stereotypes here hehe.

Too many interesting points to comment on, but I'll say a few things.

As a cultural movement I support it, because it is the right thing I believe. It seems just.

However, I worry for the EU... No matter which way you spin it, Catalan independence isn't good for anyone but the Catalans (other than maybe other separatist nations). Yes, its up to them, but you can see why there is opposition. Things like this, to me, signal the EU eventually crumbling.

A future European federation is already an extremely hazy thing, but I wonder if catalan independence would trigger other nations (eg. Basque country) wanting to break away as well?

As for Spanish and Catalan police clashing... I hope not, this is the last thing Spain, Europe and the world needs.

As for military intervention... I can't see it being allowed in the modern world. Again, last thing everyone wants.

----


Now... on Nationalism... It seems to be a controversial topic on here and its problem is that as a term it comes with many negative connotations, but Nationalism isn't all negative.

I can see why someone like Freecat sees it as almost solely negative because 'Nationalism' essentially represents repression in Spain and particularly Catalunya. For me though, this is 'abused Nationalism'.

Nationalism is simply manifested from human nature. There is no way of ridding ourselves of 'Nationalism'... We will find other ways to group ourselves into collectives. The 'nation' is just a social construct by us, as humans.

As social-beings we have identities, and collective identities. To me there is nothing wrong with a collective identity, it is only a problem when we try to assert our identity over another (eg. Repression of culture under Franco... Western imperialism). It's fine to be proud of your culture, express your identity through language etc... The world would be ridiculously boring without cultural difference etc.

Having pride in your nation's sporting achievements? No problem with that and I support Australia wholeheartedly... Come on... what is wrong with that? Absolutely nothing in my opinion. It is the same as why Free chooses to support Barca, because it is his local team and he feels a connection to it. This is the same reason I support Sydney FC in the A-League despite them being the most frustrating team in the league...

Collectivism? Its not a problem, its just it sometimes promotes unhealthy competition and violence. The solution isn't ridding ourselves of collective identities but attempting to understand, respect and appreciate others.

Catalan parliament approved today a resolution to make an independence referendum in the next 4 years today. 84 members voted in favour, 21 agains and 25 abstained.

Eager to see the elections results!

free_cat wrote:

Yuri Yukuv wrote:Wow this catalan movement seems to be the real deal as its seeping into financial chatter, were seeing selloffs and higher borrowing costs for spain because of this. Some of my colleagues think that although there is threat of secession it is small as europeans and EU is against this, man doubt that if a secession does happen that they will be allowed to automatically allowed to join eu and euro, this would result in cutoff from ECB funding which could be catastrophic.

Free_cat how likely is a secession in your pov?

I don't know how likely it is. It's not an easy path. We first need a political majority that wants to exercise our right of self-determination. This majority exists and will most likely be confirmed and enlarged in the elections on the 25th of november.

We then need to hold a referendum on creating a catalan state. This will be very difficult as spanish laws don't allow catalan government to make such a referendum without central government permission, and central government will obviously deny it. Our President said yesterday that if Spanish law doesn't allow the referendum, it will be done anyway, which I think it's democratic and makes sense. However, Spain might try to stop the referendum putting our President in jail or closing down the electoral colleges with the policemen. Catalan police should then stop spanish police from doing any of those things.

If we finally can hold a referendum, we must then win it. Poll show a big majority for independence (50% in favour, 25% against, rest undecided or don't care). However, going into the referendum Spain will put all their media trying to scare catalans, and I don't know if it can work.

If we win the referendum, we must then create the catalan state, which will need of some negotiation with Spain and the international community. Spain could also apply the constitution and send the army to catalonia and invade us, but that seems very unlikely.

So it is a hard and difficult path, mostly because of Spain's intransigence and undemocratic culture, but IMO we are in a point of no return, at least when it comes to making a referendum. If we will win it or not, that's another thing, but I'm sure there will be a referendum in the next 4 years at most.

For all thats its worth Im for catalan people determining their path, for decentralization and autonomy in europe. I sympathize with your cause.

A lot of comparisons have been drawn with the 2000 Clarity Act the govt of Canada enabled with relation to Quebec

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

It's an interesting read

However, Canada is a civilized nation that allows Quebec to decide its future, while Spain will try to stop democracy at any cost.

Our question will be clear enough and we will only declare independence if we win by a clear enough majority (50% + 1).

The problem is Spain.

Nice read:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19847252

and wtf at this:

Last week a serving officer in the Spanish army, Colonel Francisco Aleman, upped the stakes, telling a website "Catalan independence? Over my dead body and that of many soldiers". Adding that the crisis was already "like 1936" - the year the Civil War began - "only without the blood".

After Scotland and Catalonia now its Venice's turn

Mass rally in Venice to call for independence from Italy

Two centuries after Napoleonic forces snuffed out the 1,000-year Venetian Republic, Venetians are once again aspiring to become an independent state.

Inspired by the nationalist aspirations of Scotland and Catalonia, pro-independence campaigners will hold a mass rally in the heart of the lagoon city on Saturday, calling for an urgent referendum to be held on the issue.

Indipendenza Veneta, a newly-founded pro-independence movement, says it expects several thousand people to turn up for the rally.

They will be ferried across the Grand Canal in gondolas to deliver a "declaration of independence" to the headquarters of the Veneto regional government.

It may sound fanciful, and it will be fiercely resisted by Rome, but activists want to carve out a new country in north-eastern Italy which would comprise Venice, the surrounding region of Veneto and parts of Lombardy, Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia.

The "Repubblica Veneta", as it would be known, would encompass about five million people.

Recent surveys show widespread support for independence among Venetians, who speak a distinct dialect and feel geographically and culturally distant from Rome.

A poll conducted by Corriere della Sera in September found that 80 per cent were in favour of independence.

A more recent poll by Il Gazzettino, a local newspaper, found a slightly lower but still overwhelming level of support – 70 per cent.

The political movement was formed in May and shortly afterwards presented a petition with 20,000 signatures to Luca Zaia, the governor of the Veneto region.

"We have gained a lot of momentum from what is happening in Scotland and Catalonia and things are moving fast," Lodovico Pizzati, the head of the movement, told The Daily Telegraph on Friday.

"And we are building on a very strong base – calls for independence for the Veneto region go back to the 1970s. It may sound crazy but I think Veneto will become independent before Scotland or Catalonia."

Mr Zaia has acknowledged the high level of support for independence but said there is no constitutional basis for Venice and the surrounding region to secede from Italy.

The pro-independence activists say they have meanwhile referred their case to José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission.

"We argue that our right to self-determination is being violated," said Prof Pizzati, a former World Bank economist who now lectures at Venice's Ca' Foscari University.

Italy's economic crisis has only exacerbated Venetians' resentment against the central government in Rome.

"The economic situation here is really desperate, with the recession hitting small and medium-sized businesses. Meanwhile of the 70 billion euros we pay in taxes to Rome, we get back about 50 billion euros, directly and indirectly. We are losing out on 20 billion euros a year," said Prof Pizzati.

After more than a millennia of independence, the Most Serene Republic of Venice, La Serenissima, was invaded by Napoleonic forces in 1797, with the French deposing the last doge.

After a few decades under Austrian rule, Venice and the surrounding region was incorporated into Italy in 1866, five years after the unification of the rest of the country.

Camp Nou massively chanted "independence" at the minute 17:14 of both halves (1714 was the year catalonia lost its independence).

TV didn't show the stands! Here a video although with poor quality. All the yellow dots, are independentist flags:



It was also a very emotive moment before the match started, when the fans chanted Barça's hymn a capella and made a whole-stadium mosaic with the catalan flag:



Some more images:

Had no idea there was an independentist movement in Veneto/venetia. Good luck to them: they should get the chance to decide democratically. Seems hard to imagine that they are really subject to a 20 bilion tax deficit, that would be much bigger than catalan's tax deficit which is already huge.

Today is Spanish national day (they celebrate the discovering of America and the later genocide of native americans ) and there was an anti-independentist demonstration in Barcelona. According to the police, only 2.000 people turned up to the demonstration that was held in Plaça Catalunya. They didn't even have to cut the traffic around Pl. Catalunya. And at least a couple of hundred of these 2.000 people came from othe parts of Spain (buses from Malaga, Madrid, Valencia and Aragon). Ridiculous

So, there are 1.000.000 people willing to demonstrate for independence of Catlaunya and 2.000 people willing to demonstrate against.

Some pictures comparing the two demonstrations. What a difference hahaha! And the demonstration for independence could have 10 more pictures like those.

Wowwww great atmosphere n pics I'm very convinced that Catalonia will get it's Independence sooner >Truly Deserved 4sure.
Nobody in this world could represent Catalans better than people of Catalonia ..I can tell U !
Viva Independent CATALONIA

Basque elections were held yesterday and nationalists parties won a big majority in the parliament:

Basque Nationalist party (PNV) 27 congressmen
EH-Bildu (left-wing independentists): 21 congressmen
PSOE: 16
PP: 10
UPyD: 1

Both PNV and Bildu want to make a referendum of independence, although they have not been as vocal as catalan parties.

Awesome video from this New Yorker called Sharif:



He understands catalan sentiments and I really like his ending of the video. We want to start from scratch and make a new, more democratic and better country. Let's do this!