Catalan and Basque independence processes.

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Post by free_cat Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:07 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19564640

Proud to have been there!

Rosell finally went there but not representing our club.

IMO the path to independence is unstoppable.

Independence for Catalonia!


Last edited by free_cat on Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:09 am

Free if this ever happens, where does Andorra stand? Would they join the new country or remain separate?
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Post by free_cat Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:39 pm

I don't think Andorra would join an independent Catalonia. It's an unseen thing in human history that an independent country voluntarily relinquishes it's sovereiginity (if not under occupation threat - Austria when Nazi germany).

I wouldn't mind them joining, but it would be up to them, same with Aran Valley in the northwest of catlaonia if they want a special regime or the independence from Catalonia.


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Post by Forza Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:56 pm

i saw this on the news just then. will it actually amount to anything though?
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Post by Highburied Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:36 pm

Free Catalonia!

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Post by VivaStPauli Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:41 pm

Meh, screw nationalism. Just make Spain a more federal state and all stay in it. More fragmentation doesn't help anyone.
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Post by free_cat Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:53 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:Meh, screw nationalism. Just make Spain a more federal state and all stay in it. More fragmentation doesn't help anyone.

I agree with screwing nationalism. But let's start with opressor nationalists like the Spanish one, which doesn't allow us to freely become an state. We can then work out the federation that needs improving, which is Europe, not Spain.

I'm all in favour of unity, but unity in the same terms and rights and whom you want to be united, not to whom they force you to be united.

Also, you seem pretty nationalist with your avatar and signature featuring the German National Team. Double standards much?


Last edited by free_cat on Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by free_cat Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:55 pm

Forza Rossoneri wrote:i saw this on the news just then. will it actually amount to anything though?

We will see. The impact has been huge. It puts our catalan President under a lot of pressure. He has stated that catalonia is on the verge of starting a "national transition" and "acquiring state tools" but has refrained from talking directly about independence.
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Post by fatman123 Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:06 pm

crazy stuff here, i dont know much about it but best of luck free

although which is the propper Catalan flag, the one with the blue triange and star like in the article or the one without like you have under your avatar?
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Post by free_cat Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:40 am

@fatman123 wrote:
although which is the propper Catalan flag, the one with the blue triange and star like in the article or the one without like you have under your avatar?

The official and historical flag (since XII century) of Catalonia is the one under my avatar. Four blood stripes on gold.

The starred catalan flag is a reivindicative flag that asks for a catalan state.

In an independent catalan state, we would most likely have our normal 4 stripes flag.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:56 am

@free_cat wrote:Also, you seem pretty nationalist with your avatar and signature featuring the German National Team. Double standards much?

Equating supporting my NT and nationalism... Really? Come on, you know yourself that's just ridiculous.

And by Federalism I'm talking about having the regions of Spain be semi-autonomous, like the US States, or the German Bundesländer. Or Swiss Cantons. Give leeway for regional identity, maintain national unity.

I just don't think anything is gained for anybody by the Catalans (or Basques, for that matter) seceding.

Hell, I'd even be in favor of an all-European federal state, with a united parliament, military, and foreign office.

Only way to counterbalance the Chinese, Russians, and Americans in world affairs. Inner-European squabbles only weaken all of us.

Better unite, and have countries like Germany or France invest a bit more until the periphery has reached the Central European standard of living. Then, we all hold hands, form a neat circle, and sing a prayer to friendship.
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Post by RealGunner Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:17 am

"Hell, I'd even be in favor of an all-European federal state, with a united parliament, military, and foreign office"

lol jog on

EU is the perfect example of why it should never happen.
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Post by free_cat Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:40 am

@VivaStPauli wrote:
@free_cat wrote:Also, you seem pretty nationalist with your avatar and signature featuring the German National Team. Double standards much?

Equating supporting my NT and nationalism... Really? Come on, you know yourself that's just ridiculous.

And by Federalism I'm talking about having the regions of Spain be semi-autonomous, like the US States, or the German Bundesländer. Or Swiss Cantons. Give leeway for regional identity, maintain national unity.

I just don't think anything is gained for anybody by the Catalans (or Basques, for that matter) seceding.


Supporting your national team it's obviously an example of nationalism. If you were not nationalist you would support the team of the country you like best how they play.

By your definition of federalism, Spain it's pretty much a federal state. Catalonia has autonomy, probably more than German Lands. However, you can't simply equate catalans or basques to German Lands. We are simply not spanish and we don't want to be rule, at any extent, from Spain. German Lands are german and feel german. We are also being very misstreated when it comes to taxes, with fiscal deficits that are over 10% of our GDP taking a huge toll in our economy.

Your assumption that Basques and catalans wouldn't gain anythig by independence is not really supported by anything. There are no new independent countries that want to go back to their old country, so that seems to point out that they like it that way.
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Post by Raptorgunner Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:36 am

Catalan and Basque independence processes. OBJ_Free_Cesc_White_Shirt
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Post by RedOranje Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:11 am

@free_cat wrote:I don't think Andorra would join an independent Catalonia. It's an unseen thing in human history that an independent country voluntarily relinquishes it's sovereiginity (if not under occupation threat - Austria when Nazi germany).

I wouldn't mind them joining, but it would be up to them, same with Aran Valley in the northwest of catlaonia if they want a special regime or the independence from Catalonia.

Texas?


@RealGunner wrote:
"Hell, I'd even be in favor of an all-European federal state, with a united parliament, military, and foreign office"

lol jog on

EU is the perfect example of why it should never happen.

What is it with the Brits and a fear of a united European (sub)continent? I mean, in the times of Napoleon and Hitler it was understandable as both were doing so via military strength, and before that it was generally the fear of the Catholic Church... but nowadays in the post-religious Europe? It's not as though a united European state would threaten Britain's trade or sovereignty.
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Post by fatman123 Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:02 am

all the information (read propaganda) ive been fed my anonymous tells me that any form of a united European continent would be a bad choice
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Post by Forza Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:10 pm

@RedOranje wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:
"Hell, I'd even be in favor of an all-European federal state, with a united parliament, military, and foreign office"

lol jog on

EU is the perfect example of why it should never happen.

What is it with the Brits and a fear of a united European (sub)continent? I mean, in the times of Napoleon and Hitler it was understandable as both were doing so via military strength, and before that it was generally the fear of the Catholic Church... but nowadays in the post-religious Europe? It's not as though a united European state would threaten Britain's trade or sovereignty.

Haha, so true. I remember a scene of Yes, Minister where they're talking about foreign policy... found the quote...

Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.
Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.
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Post by RealGunner Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:21 pm

@RedOranje wrote:

What is it with the Brits and a fear of a united European (sub)continent? I mean, in the times of Napoleon and Hitler it was understandable as both were doing so via military strength, and before that it was generally the fear of the Catholic Church... but nowadays in the post-religious Europe? It's not as though a united European state would threaten Britain's trade or sovereignty.

United European would mean Getting countries like Greece in it ( no offence to any greek at all ) It's not that we are completely against the idea but it will never work simply because weak countries taking the likes of Germany or Britain for the granted. If we have Latvia under a united Europe, there will be obligations to support them in times of war and not being selfish or anything, but i rather UK mind their own business than jumping in other matters which doesn't concern them.

Trade between us and the rest of the Europe is going fine as it is now. We welcome Immigrants, that's great too. We offer other Europeans Education. There is no need to have a united Europe to do all that when it's working fine as it is atm.


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Post by RedOranje Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:40 am

Bolivia as part of a united Europe? You might want to brush up on your geography...
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Post by Guest Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:48 am

@RedOranje wrote:Bolivia as part of a united Europe? You might want to brush up on your geography...

lmfao

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Post by RealGunner Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:52 am

@RedOranje wrote:Bolivia as part of a united Europe? You might want to brush up on your geography...

lmfao :facepalm: Just realised that

I meant Latvia lol
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Post by Highburied Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:38 pm

Now I know why Spain doesnt recognize the independence of Kosovo.

As long as people from Catalonia want to separate, nothing should stop them .
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Post by che Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:26 am

@RedOranje wrote:

What is it with the Brits and a fear of a united European (sub)continent? I mean, in the times of Napoleon and Hitler it was understandable as both were doing so via military strength, and before that it was generally the fear of the Catholic Church... but nowadays in the post-religious Europe? It's not as though a united European state would threaten Britain's trade or sovereignty.

if a monetary union isn't working properly because some countries seem to employ monkeys in positions of economic power, there's no way a closer federation would work

i'm sure the british taxpayers have better things to worry about than funding greek pensions for dead people and slovakian corrupt politicians...
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Post by RealGunner Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:08 am

Thumbs up
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Post by RedOranje Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:35 am

A more centralised and unified bureaucracy would allow for the more competent to run the entire European economy though... you'd have those that actually know what they're doing running everything rather than trying to offer help to "incompetents" from outside.

Also, I was referring to a unified CONTINENTAL EUROPE (believe I said as much) therefore Britain wouldn't necessarily be a part unless it wanted to.
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