Do you guys consider Bilbao's player policy racist?

sportsczy wrote:

McLewis wrote:I want to see if I understand this correctly. Let's take a young French boy from Provence, age 4 let's say. His parents decide to move to the Basque region of Spain and by the age of 12, The kid begins to show serious talent in football.

Considering their policy on local talent, would Bilbao pick this boy up and foster him through their ranks since his family now has ties to the Basque region dating back 8 years? Would he be considered "Basque" enough to join them? If what I understood from the previous pages, the answer should be yes.

You need to identify yourself as Basque and not French. You also need to prove that the child is educated in the Basque culture predominantly. Basically, they want you to be a nationalist. You can't identify yourself as both French and Basque. You must be all Basque.

Edit: You also need to ask for an exception if you don't have Basque ancestry.

No this is far from the truth as I don't know where this has come from. You can identify with any religion, political stance and culture as long as you identify well enough to Athletic Club's standards of Basque identification.

sportsczy wrote:Racism includes differentiating based on ethnicity and Basque is definitely considered and ehtnic group. This is a highly discriminatory policy... i don't think anyone can argue with that.

I'm interested in discussing the morality of such a practice and the example it sets.

My issue with it is that Bilbao plays in La Liga and participates in UEFA competitions. Those governing bodies are basically saying that it's ok to have ethnically discriminatory practices. In essence, any club in Spain could decide to make similar policies and they would have precedent to do so.

I think it sets an awful example. It's saying that it's ok to be an ultra nationalist.

Well, where I'm from [by law] racism is defined a lot more broader.
In fact, from a global human rights perspective it is defined as broad as I said. It can be wide host of characteristics. Really we aren't talking about racism, just about discrimination.

And by only signing players who are Basque, you could argue that they are lessening opportunities to players of any other descent, therefore engaging in unequal treatment based on that characteristic.

Arquitecto wrote:

sportsczy wrote:

McLewis wrote:I want to see if I understand this correctly. Let's take a young French boy from Provence, age 4 let's say. His parents decide to move to the Basque region of Spain and by the age of 12, The kid begins to show serious talent in football.

Considering their policy on local talent, would Bilbao pick this boy up and foster him through their ranks since his family now has ties to the Basque region dating back 8 years? Would he be considered "Basque" enough to join them? If what I understood from the previous pages, the answer should be yes.

You need to identify yourself as Basque and not French. You also need to prove that the child is educated in the Basque culture predominantly. Basically, they want you to be a nationalist. You can't identify yourself as both French and Basque. You must be all Basque.

Edit: You also need to ask for an exception if you don't have Basque ancestry.

No this is far from the truth as I don't know where this has come from. You can identify with any religion, political stance and culture as long as you identify well enough to Athletic Club's standards of Basque identification.

My bad if i'm wrong and i apologize for it. That's how it was explained to me. I was told that it's very difficult to get into the club unless you have direct Basque heritage... he could be uninformed.

Arq is there any Bilbao home-grown player that doesn't have Basque ancestry? I understand the club policy to be "direct Basque ancestry or developed at a Basque club", but how many, or do any, are not Basque from birth?

Luca wrote:

sportsczy wrote:Racism includes differentiating based on ethnicity and Basque is definitely considered and ehtnic group. This is a highly discriminatory policy... i don't think anyone can argue with that.

I'm interested in discussing the morality of such a practice and the example it sets.

My issue with it is that Bilbao plays in La Liga and participates in UEFA competitions. Those governing bodies are basically saying that it's ok to have ethnically discriminatory practices. In essence, any club in Spain could decide to make similar policies and they would have precedent to do so.

I think it sets an awful example. It's saying that it's ok to be an ultra nationalist.

Well, where I'm from [by law] racism is defined a lot more broader.
In fact, from a global human rights perspective it is defined as broad as I said. It can be wide host of characteristics. Really we aren't talking about racism, just about discrimination.

And by only signing players who are Basque, you could argue that they are lessening opportunities to players of any other descent, therefore engaging in unequal treatment based on that characteristic.

i agree with you. That's why i said it "includes" ethnicity... the current definition is a lot broader.

Btw, racism is everywhere and 99% of it is cultural, based on ignorance or socially coded in a person. I'd venture that only a very small percentage of it is malicious and intended to be hurtful... i don't consider Bilbao's policy malicious at all.

The issue is that intent and consequences don't always correlate. When something creates a dangerous precedent that can be used maliciously, then it should be stopped imo.

Do you guys think that Bilbao's precedent can be abused?

Vibe wrote:

7amood11 wrote:

Vibe wrote:Not at all.

In fact all of football should be like this...All about knowledge,no politics,no business,only the beauty of talent and ability of those who nurture it.

That's just like international football.

Not even close.

If all clubs do what Bilbao does then it'll be very similar to international football, except instead of countries you have regions/cities. That's what I meant.

Lizarazu for example identified himself as French and still played for Bilbao.Similarly Amrebieta currently identifies himself as Venezuelan and plays for Bilbao.

Half of Bilbao's team are Navarrese, who , despite being part of the greater Basque Community have their own autonomus community and aren't really considered "homegrown" talent the Bilbao supporters.

It's not as stoic a policy as you imagine Sports.

Sports I don't see any danger in this being abused because chances are that if a club only purchases one type of player then they won't be in top-football for very long. The fact that Bilbao have remained in first division for so long with such a policy is a testament to them. It would be hard to do if they don't have a very well established youth academy and the support of the community.

Anyways, how can you be so outraged about this but not about the 3 non-EU rule or Italy's only 2 non-EU spots as Che rightfully brought up? You can't have it both ways.

sportsczy wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

sportsczy wrote:

McLewis wrote:I want to see if I understand this correctly. Let's take a young French boy from Provence, age 4 let's say. His parents decide to move to the Basque region of Spain and by the age of 12, The kid begins to show serious talent in football.

Considering their policy on local talent, would Bilbao pick this boy up and foster him through their ranks since his family now has ties to the Basque region dating back 8 years? Would he be considered "Basque" enough to join them? If what I understood from the previous pages, the answer should be yes.

You need to identify yourself as Basque and not French. You also need to prove that the child is educated in the Basque culture predominantly. Basically, they want you to be a nationalist. You can't identify yourself as both French and Basque. You must be all Basque.

Edit: You also need to ask for an exception if you don't have Basque ancestry.

No this is far from the truth as I don't know where this has come from. You can identify with any religion, political stance and culture as long as you identify well enough to Athletic Club's standards of Basque identification.

My bad if i'm wrong and i apologize for it. That's how it was explained to me. I was told that it's very difficult to get into the club unless you have direct Basque heritage... he could be uninformed.

Thats understandable as many have a poor understanding of the finer intricacies of the policy as it is since its fuelled by the mainland spanish media. So in retrospect I don't blame you at all.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Arq is there any Bilbao home-grown player that doesn't have Basque ancestry? I understand the club policy to be "direct Basque ancestry or developed at a Basque club", but how many, or do any, are not Basque from birth?

As of now, no. Ramalho is black and of Angolan descent yet his mother is Basque. Yet, the defining factor is also that . Jones had lived in the Basque Country since he was 5, played football in the Basque Country and even ended teaching economics at Deusto University in the Basque Country. So essentially he passed the test that he is breaths and embraces Basque culture. His other stances don't matter as long as the former is embraced and bred into him.

I'm not in favor of any quotas. In my perfect world, everything is open to competition. I don't like the non-EU limits at all. I like the US based sports model where there are no quotas whatsoever. If you're the best, then you play. Just look at the NHL (national hockey league)... it's mostly Canadian, Scandinavian and Eastern European.

As far as Bilbao, this is a nationalistic agenda in a region known for ultra nationalism... i question it now because Llorente, Martinez and their families are being ostracized and i don't think that's right. This is where such a policy has led to radicalism and is ultimately hurtful to people.

che wrote:barcelona playing a lot of local players = amazing, genius, every club should promote local talent

bilbao playing only local players = ZOMG RACIST!!!111!



sure it would get boring if all clubs did it but seriously...

why aren't we questioning the only-3-non-eu-players rule by the way? or serie a's 2 non-eu per transfer period? or the entire system of work permits, not just in football?

stop the politically correct bullshit please

Barca have had many many non Spanish players in the past and even now. Also not every player that came through their ranks is a Catalan. Iniesta.
So it isn't exactly the same as Bilbao's.


With that being said I don't think Bilbao's policy is racist at all. They have their own identity and they want Bilbao to be represented by Basque. They have a fantastic academy that produces great talent. They don't just fill their team up with Basque players they have reason to do it.

Oh and Amorbieta represents Venezuela and he plays for Bilbao.

Le Samourai wrote:Lizarazu for example identified himself as French and still played for Bilbao.Similarly Amrebieta currently identifies himself as Venezuelan and plays for Bilbao.

Half of Bilbao's team are Navarrese, who , despite being part of the greater Basque Community have their own autonomus community and aren't really considered "homegrown" talent the Bilbao supporters.

It's not as stoic a policy as you imagine Sports.

No, over 80% of Athletic Club are Biscayan as if your thinking Llorente, he is Navarese but been with Athletic club since 1996.

Plus Navarese identify themselves as pure Basque anyway so club and fans alike don't mind at all.

kiranr wrote:Exactly as Arq said. I just don't see how preferring your own talent can be considered discrimination.

its not really 'preferring' though is it? if bilbao were only 'preferring' basque players then other players would have a chance.

bilbao is SOLELY using basque players, anyone from any other region do not have the opportunity to play there.

even if this was true and bilbao were only preferring a certain ethnic/ geographic region of players- consider this situation a company only prefers white workers, two equally qualified workers apply for the job, one white, one black, the white employee gets the job, is the black employee not discriminated against?

Arquitecto wrote:

Its more complicated then that as Athletic have their own bred methods of acknowledging how much the parents are in lineage with their Basque roots along with how well they identify with it. As well as being granted permission for educating their child in the Basque roots and culture.

So the answer is yes.

Let's take it a step further then. Let's say neither parent has any connection whatsoever to the region prior to moving there, will give the reason for moving there as an employment decision. No one from this family has any Basque roots at all, blood or otherwise. They are entirely foreign to the region, for all intents and purposes, upon moving there.

Based on this admittedly elementary scenario, would Bilbao still be more likely to reject this kid or accept him as Basque enough to join their club after his family has lived there for an acceptable amount of time (i.e the 8 years as previously mentioned)?

sportsczy wrote:Racism includes differentiating based on ethnicity and Basque is definitely considered and ehtnic group. This is a highly discriminatory policy... i don't think anyone can argue with that.

I'm interested in discussing the morality of such a practice and the example it sets.

My issue with it is that Bilbao plays in La Liga and participates in UEFA competitions. Those governing bodies are basically saying that it's ok to have ethnically discriminatory practices. In essence, any club in Spain could decide to make similar policies and they would have precedent to do so.

I think it sets an awful example. It's saying that it's ok to be an ultra nationalist.

Then all leagues are racist because all of them discriminate foreigners only allowing a limited number of them to play for every club?

except the premier.

sportsczy wrote:I'm not in favor of any quotas. In my perfect world, everything is open to competition. I don't like the non-EU limits at all. I like the US based sports model where there are no quotas whatsoever. If you're the best, then you play. Just look at the NHL (national hockey league)... it's mostly Canadian, Scandinavian and Eastern European.

As far as Bilbao, this is a nationalistic agenda in a region known for ultra nationalism... i question it now because Llorente, Martinez and their families are being ostracized and i don't think that's right. This is where such a policy has led to radicalism and is ultimately hurtful to people.

here it is freecat. I hate quotas. And yes, quotas that are ethnically based are racist imo.

Sports I'm guessing you're someone who pushes for world wide free trade as well .

McLewis wrote:Let's take it a step further then. Let's say neither parent has any connection whatsoever to the region prior to moving there, will give the reason for moving there as an employment decision. No one from this family has any Basque roots at all, blood or otherwise. They are entirely foreign to the region, for all intents and purposes, upon moving there.

Based on this admittedly elementary scenario, would Bilbao still be more likely to reject this kid or accept him as Basque enough to join their club after his family has lived there for an acceptable amount of time (i.e the 8 years as previously mentioned)?

I would assume that so long as the kid think of himself as Basque (which he probably would living there for most of his available memory) then there would be no problem, although they might have to ask for an exception to be made. Maybe Arq knows better though.

Le Samourai wrote:Sports I'm guessing you're someone who pushes for world wide free trade as well .

Yep. Just like i believe in democracy. In the end though, i realize it will always be very flawed.

Yes, I have always thought so.. Some people praise them, but not me

There is a difference between using only local talent and using only basque players

This topic has gotten me worked up for hours now, the Xenophobic nature of Athletic Bilbao and the whole Basque region in itself is, in my view, inmoral and downright nauseating.

One of my best friends has a job in which he has to live large amounts of time in San Sebastian (the city in which Real Sociedad play, it is conected to the Basque region). He also regularly visits Bilbao when he's there. He hates the place.

As Arq already said, Basque people are big snobs and look down on everyone and anyone who isn't "one of them". He says he is regularly seen as 2/3 human as a Mexican and his use of Spanish is looked down upon, coworkers constantly asking him why he doesn't learn Euskera (hilarious). He also talks about how Basques regularly think they're unique and above all, when really as a group they are as unique as a prepubescent girl at a Justin Beiber concert. Girls turn him down, clubs try to deny him entry.

The whole European separatist movement just drives me nuts, as a continental American, i don't get it at all. Just on the basis of economy i believe its better to be together. I also call BS on the whole "taking pride in region" thing. If you look at political statements, they almost always have a "us against them" mentality, not really want to unite too much like the olympic GB team.

There's actually so many layers i find wrong about the situation in Athletic Bilbao, what are they really trying to say and to what extent? Are foreigners not welcome to Bilbao? Do they believe, like the Nazis, that their race/region/culture is somehow superior to the rest? Imagine if Atheletic took it a step further and decided it would only employ regional coaches as well, which means bye bye Bielsa, which would mean Hello mid table obscurity. Bilbao is one of the richest cities in Spain, they should regularly be battling for third place or be one of Spains biggest teams.

The WHOLE Basque region is only 2.1 million people, yet they have their own flag, language and a modicum of independence. Bilbao itself only has 352k inhabitants, my home town has more than three times that amount of inhabitants, my whole state is 3.4 million people, yet we in now way think we're special and above other Mexicans.

So you had bad blood in the past with other Spanish regions? Boo hoo, how can they ever get over that?

Also the whole regional language things make absolutely no sense to me at all, the magic of this forum for example is that we all come from different places in the world with different backgrounds and ideas, but we can all unite under one language and regularly talk about unimportant and trivial daily football.

For many reasons, i consider Athletic Bilbao to be one of the most immoral teams in Football.

Wow, kid, your post is a huge pile of shit.

It's true that Basques are a bit xenophobic or racist, not much more than other Spaniards though.

However, where your post just goes wrong is when you attack Basque language, culture or their aim for freedom. Try putting yourself into their skin. They are a country with an old culture that they enjoy and that they want to keep. Some of them don't feel spanish and want to be an independent country within Europe. What's wrong with that?

Let people chose what they want if they do it peacefully.

PS. I was in Mexico some weeks ago and it is embarrasing to see a whole nation made of indigenous people that has completely lost their roots in favour of the spanish invasor. You should have taken a cue of Basques instead of surrender so easily.

their quest for freedom lol